Game Over- no more foreign rikishi loopholes

[Kintamayama 44,135]

The shishokai convened today, and one of the decisions was to continue the "one foreigner for one heya" rule, with a stipulation-once a guy is regarded as a foreigner, he will be regarded as such till he retires, regardless of his getting Japanese citizenship. Lately, we have witnessed some cases of foreign rikishi acquiring Japanese citizenship, "freeing" a foreigner spot for the heya. Not anymore.

[kenzo 5]

Well no surprise there.Nothing like protecting the home market.

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

Just for my curiosity, what if a guy gets his Japanese citizenship before actually joining ozumo?

[Asashosakari 18,546]

Huh. They got a majority among shisho for that? That honestly surprises me.

Just for my curiosity, what if a guy gets his Japanese citizenship before actually joining ozumo?

Pretty sure he'd just get treated like all the "closeted" foreigners/dual citizenship holders that are already there, i.e. if it's possible to register him with a Japanese shusshin, then he's not technically a foreigner.

[Kintamayama 44,135]

We missed two Chinese rikishi's Japanese citizenship acquisitions. One is Nishonoseki-beya's Ryuutei on the 5th of January. The other? Anyone?

Edited March 4, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 18,546]

One is Nishonosekibeya's Ryuutei on the 5th of Janauary.

Hidden in Gaijin Guide. (Sign of disapproval...) The other, hmm, do you mean Chiyohakuryu last year?

BTW, I wonder if this applies retroactively to spots already vacated and not yet re-filled (like Ryutei's or also Kasugao's) or just going forward...

[Kintamayama 44,135]

One is Nishonosekibeya's Ryuutei on the 5th of Janauary.

Hidden in Gaijin Guide. (Sign of disapproval...) The other, hmm, do you mean Chiyohakuryu last year?

BTW, I wonder if this applies retroactively to spots already vacated and not yet re-filled (like Ryutei's or also Kasugao's) or just going forward...

Yes, forgot about him. It applies to any changes from the new recruits' tests for March and onwards, which I take to mean the ones already changed can be replaced, but that's it.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 18,546]

It applies to any changes from March and onwards, which I take to mean the ones already changed can be replaced, but that's it.

I see, thanks. One quick correction now that I've had a look, too: The decision comes from the rijikai, not the shishos. That's much less surprising now, except for the speed at which they acted - makes you wonder again why only some issues are addressed so quickly. Viva la revoluci

Edited February 23, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Raishu 202]

Wow, that's really kinda surprising.

It applies to any changes from the new recruits' tests for March and onwards, which I take to mean the ones already changed can be replaced, but that's it.

So how many heya could recruit a foreigner ATM?

10? (Dewanoumi, Sakaigawa, Nishonoseki, Magaki, Matsugane, Otake, Isenoumi, Nakamura, Kasugayama, Takadagawa) - list complete/correct??

[Kintamayama 44,135]

I see, thanks. One quick correction now that I've had a look, too: The decision comes from the rijikai, not the shishos.

Asahi came out with this first, and said it was the shishokai-later, Hochi said it was the rijikai..

日本相撲協会の武蔵川理事長（元横綱三重ノ海）は２３日の師匠会で、「外国人力士の採用は各部屋１人」 etc etc..

[kenzo 5]

That would be one way around it.But I think it would be difficult to get the Japanese nationality for this purpose. Not doubt if sucessful the NSK would come up with yet another trump card.

[madorosumaru 7]

I see, thanks. One quick correction now that I've had a look, too: The decision comes from the rijikai, not the shishos.

Asahi came out with this first, and said it was the shishokai-later, Hochi said it was the rijikai..

日本相撲協会の武蔵川理事長（元横綱三重ノ海）は２３日の師匠会で、「外国人力士の採用は各部屋１人」 etc etc..

The Sanspo article clarifies the issue. The decision was made at the rijikai. Musashigawa Rijicho then called a shishokai to explain the decision and urge a strict adherence to the new rule.

[ilovesumo 12]

Rijikai I am sure.......

oh my......was that the first "Takanohana" ?

Nishi said it- pretty much against the constitution I'd say as well,

If BBC or so picks that one up - ciao Rijichou...has big fat international scandal potential ですね。

But after I heard what the doctoral thesis of a fellow Japanologist is about, I won't worry too much that there is massive support for that new shit even from the law...

My advise- go and get the real problems fixed!

After-Sumo perspectives!

Edited February 23, 2010 by ilovesumo

[ilovesumo 12]

Wow, that's really kinda surprising.

It applies to any changes from the new recruits' tests for March and onwards, which I take to mean the ones already changed can be replaced, but that's it.

So how many heya could recruit a foreigner ATM?

10? (Dewanoumi, Sakaigawa, Nishonoseki, Magaki, Matsugane, Otake, Isenoumi, Nakamura, Kasugayama, Takadagawa) - list complete/correct??

Dewanoumi already has a gaijin waiting list.

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

The shishokai convened today, and one of the decisions was to continue the "one foreigner for one heya" rule, with a stipulation-once a guy is regarded as a foreigner, he will be regarded as such till he retires, regardless of his getting Japanese citizenship.

Wonder how long till they realise that's a beach of constitutional rights? I'm sure it will be quietly pointed out to them and dropped without ceremony.

Now you got me thinking. How's this different from the previous one gaijin per heya rule rights-wise? The way I see it, the foreigner in question will only be regarded as a foreigner when applying the one gaijin per heya rule and nothing more. Don't get me wrong, I think it's underhanded too, but I don't think there's anything 'unconstitutional' about it. At least not more than the first version of the 1 furry/heya rule.

[ilovesumo 12]

Oh, and just think on- what about former-gaijin who wanna be Shisho????? Is he no gaijin anymore after intai?

THIS will end as a.........

Edited February 23, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Asashosakari 18,546]

Now you got me thinking. How's this different from the previous one gaijin per heya rule rights-wise? The way I see it, the foreigner in question will only be regarded as a foreigner when applying the one gaijin per heya rule and nothing more. Don't get me wrong, I think it's underhanded too, but I don't think there's anything 'unconstitutional' about it. At least not more than the first version of the 1 furry/heya rule.

The problem is that it's not the ex-foreigner's own status that is affected by this, but somebody else's (the prospective new applicant). I think what Nishinoshima is trying to get at is that, constitutionally, those naturalized guys are completely equivalent to their Japanese-born stablemates, yet the Kyokai wants to treat them as a different class of people when deciding whether the "foreigner" quota is already filled. The devil is in the details - imagine e.g. a kid with dual citizenship who joined sumo as a Japanese-registered rikishi, and upon turning 20 decides he wants to drop the Japanese citizenship and keep his other one. He wouldn't count as a foreigner under this rule, and that's arguably even more absurd than a naturalized person still counting as one.

[ilovesumo 12]

The whole thing is ridiculous. Next step would be to kick out all the active ones... :-/

There is sooo much space in many many Heya for Japanese boys- but THOSE do not join for many understandable reasons- and those reasons are the problem.

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

I already agreed it's totally f-ed up, but I was just thinking about possible rebuttals from... well, anyone in Japan interesting in rebutting it. The initial rule was affecting the same potential guys, but that didn't seem to stop everyone from being just fine with it. And yes, constitutionally, a foreign guy who has Japanese citizenship is the equal of a true Japanese, at least on paper, but the problem here is that none of his rights are being violated. What, this guy has a right to a compadre in the heya if he sells his soul to Japan?

Like I said, it's underhanded, but I can't see any possible legal action against it with the precedents already set.

[Asashosakari 18,546]

FWIW, according to Nikkan the exact wording has changed from "外国人枠" (roughly: foreign person regulation) to "外国出身力士枠" (foreign-origin rikishi regulation, where 出身 = shusshin), which makes me wonder one thing: What's stopping naturalized foreign rikishi from changing their shusshin to a Japanese one? I understand that this requires being added to an existing family register (right?), but in cases like Kyokutenho's who IIRC was in fact adopted into Oshima-oyakata's family this should be easily possible. And other sekitori such as Kasugao and Mokonami (who's even using his shisho's family name already, without being adopted) probably wouldn't have much trouble finding a suitable family to "adopt into", either. Maybe I'm way off-base here and should just be quiet though...

This whole thing is eminently confusing to me; I was quite convinced they were okay with the (now ex-)loophole as it allowed them to not bother addressing the "one per stable" limit and still keep a reasonable influx of foreign talent.

[Kintamayama 44,135]

I must say I don't see why some are so indignant and PC and all that about this. It's not like the 4 Mongolians/2 Chinese have suddenly all together become Japanese patriots and have received citizenship out of sudden love for the country, all in roughly 4 months.. It's the same like any other sport in the world where you have a foreigner-cap. Like basketball players playing in Europe who suddenly "legally" get local citizenship so more foreign slots open up. It's simply taking cold and calculated advantage of a loophole (and it really doesn't matter if it's the shisho's idea or their own). Nobody's constitutional right is being violated-it's a matter of convenience and as such, is being blocked by the Kyokai guys who aren't THAT blind that they can't see where this is going.

Now, the one foreigner per heya rule itself-that's another story altogether. This correction-legitimate.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,135]

A forty-something Oyakata who has a foreign Makuuchi deshi: "It may seem a bit overbearing, but we've got to put a stop to this somehow, otherwise we'll have many gaijin-only heyas, so we don't have much choice.."

Edited February 23, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 18,546]

I must say I don't see why some are so indignant and PC and all that about this. It's not like the 4 Mongolians/2 Chinese have suddenly all together become Japanese patriots and have received citizenship out of sudden love for the country, all in roughly 4 months.. It's the same like any other sport in the world where you have a foreigner-cap. Like basketball players playing in Europe who suddenly "legally" get local citizenship so more foreign slots open up. It's simply taking cold and calculated advantage of a loophole (and it really doesn't matter if it's the shisho's idea or their own). Nobody's constitutional right is being violated-it's a matter of convenience and as such, is being blocked by the Kyokai guys who aren't THAT blind that they can't see where this is going.

The point is that - at least IMO - it's not for the Kyokai to close that loophole. They're essentially interfering with a legal process by saying "no, we won't recognize this guy as a proper Japanese even though the government does". I'm not aware of any of those European sports leagues instituting similar measures. The "proper" (though arguably no less dirty) way of dealing with this situation is to lobby your government to stop handing out semi-frivolous naturalizations to athletes. But of course that's not an avenue the Kyokai can take, what with their requiring citizenship to become an oyakata...

A forty-something Oyakata who has a foreign Makuuchi deshi: "It may seem a bit overbearing, but we've got to put a stop to this somehow, otherwise we'll have many gaijin-only heyas, so we don't have much choice.."

Words fail. Are another two dozen naturalization requests in the queue or something? At least those stable owners are awake enough to be actively recruiting - and surely not just foreigners, unlike what's implied there; just look at the "biggest offender", Tatsunami-oyakata. Not that I'm saying anything new here, but they'd be better off dealing with half-dead stables like Kagamiyama (which sure ain't going to get better, now that the shisho has become a director), Takashima and Nishonoseki and issues of lacking guidance as we've seen with Takasago and Magaki-beya. I'm hardly one to toot the "foreigners are being oppressed by the Kyokai" horn, but apparently the logic here is "Gaijin have been causing problems. Therefore, fewer gaijin -> fewer problems." Talk about having a severe forest/trees issue.

[Washuyama 634]

...otherwise we'll have many gaijin-only heyas..."

Maybe that's the route they should go; allow one heya with gaijin only.

[Asashosakari 18,546]

Maybe that's the route they should go; allow one heya with gaijin only.

What, and overshadow my proposed collegiate-only stables?