Chiyozakura

And it is by far not the worst thing a former Tokitsukaze has been arrested for. There are not many kabu you can say this about. Is his former shisho still in prison? Maybe they can share a cell?

It has been some time since my last post on this forum but this thread itches my fingers too much as there is so much wrong information in it. There are no clear rules as to what will happen in regards to promotions. The people in charge change all the time, public reception changes, business situation changes, etc. pp and thus something that has been done a year ago could be handled the opposite way now. On the positive side it makes it interesting but on the negative side your favourite rikishi can suffer under it. The suprisingly positive side of it is that they basically got Yokozuna promotions right. There are hardly any career Ozeki who have done way better than the worst Yokozuna. There is a guideline, not a rule, that an Ozeki with back to back yusho will be promoted but they can be promoted with less and also not be promoted with it. We have not had the case, yet, but in 1996 we had Musashimaru winning an Ozeki yusho at 11-4 and the NSK publicly declared he was not on a Tsuna run the next basho as 4 losses were not Yokozuna material. So it is not a given, but still might be done some day. Chiyonoyama was a completely different case. The NSK wanted to promote him but his Oyakata sad he was still too immature. The whole thing was based on then-Dewanoumi (Ex-Tsunenohana), not on the rest of the NSK or YDC. Konishiki's case is always brought up again but I can assure you it was more of an international affair than something that was a major topic in the sumo world when it happened. His middle tournament of 12-3 looks way better on paper than in real time. He got his third loss on day 7 and was out of the Yusho race. The headlines were on 19-year old Maegashira Takahanada who went 14-1 and got his first yusho and the the second topic was Akebono, a 21-year old Komusubi finishing 13-2. So it was not even close to a jun-yusho for Konishiki but an also-ran behind the future of sumo. When he went into the next basho there was a consenus that he was not on a Yokozuna run. There are no internet forums to check that up but Sumo World magazine is a nice contemporary witness. If you read the roundtable discussions with guys like Andy Adams, David Shapiro, Clyde Newton, Doreen Simmons and others you will find that they do not even discuss Konishiki's promotion but discuss how he was weak mentally by blowing it in the first week and overall not being Yokozuna material. There is no promotion talk after his last yusho, however they are surprised by the international uproar during the July issue. And Sumo World was known for highlighting the Hawaiian rikishi as Americans were probably their main readership. These days, however, Konishiki's results may warrant promotion as they have become more lenient again. By the way, the best example for someone not being promoted to Yokozuna despite outstanding results is Asahifuji in early 1989 with five straight basho of 12 plus jun-yushos, three straight tournaments with a maximum of two losses and two play-off appearances and already a Yusho to his credit from the year before. I am pretty sure Kotozakura would be promoted somewhere along the way if he were to put up the same numbers now. But given sumo's state of having no outstanding rikishi at the moment he might win five yusho with those results.

Sorry but that is nonsense. Konishiki had borderline numbers at best and that only two years after Asahifuji had consistently put up numbers of 12+ basho without being promoted. The whole Konishiki discrimination story came up after one of Konishiki's tsukebito answered the phone to a tabloid and made some crude remarks which then were blown up. Just checking Asahifuji's career or the course of the bashos where Konishiki came statistically close shows that it was wrong.

He looks very short and not like 176cm. Takadagawa is only 176cm himself (at best) and looks a lot taller then the kid.

Miyabiyama was completely different from Onosato. He was very raw and made Ozeki mainly by power and a little bit of luck. Musashigawa Beya was hot at the time and he did not have to face Yokozuna Musashimaru and the Ozeki Dejima and Musoyama (who made Ozeki at about the same time) and Miyabiyama was never considered to be a serious Yusho contender. I remember my worst sumo predicition ever: My take was that Miyabiyama would surely become a Yokozuna. Why? Because he made Ozeki with such bad sumo that he should be nearly unbeatable once he learns to do good sumo. Good example should be his loss to Takatoriki in Takatoriki's sole yusho where Miyabiyama had easily dominated the match but somehow let Takatoriki escape to the side at the edge. Onosato on the other hand looks like the best rikishi around already and his wins look solid.

If I remember correctly Asahifuji joined the sumo club at Kinki university and quickly left because he did not like the way he was treated as a newcomer. He quit university completely and became a fisherman until ex-Asahikuni persuaded him to join his stable. The condition was that Asahifuji would be tsukebito only to the stablemaster. As he never competed in university sumo he is not considered to have a college sumo background.

And it's posts like these the keep reminding me why I am not posting anymore...

I rarely write in the forum anymore but as my avatar here is a Chiyonoyama Tegata this might be a good reason to add a bit to the Chiyonofuji/Kokonoe discussion. Chiyonofuji was Chiyonoyama's pick as his successor. They came from the same area in Japan, both were very slim rikishi, Chiyonoyama like Chiyonofuji's determination and saw great things for him. Kitanofuji would not have been a good successor because age-wise he was too close to Chiyonoyama. So after his retirement he founded his own Izutsu Beya. Then Chiyonoyama died at only 51. Chiyonofuji was still at the start of his career and was only 21 years old. So Kitanofuji took over but only as a stop-gap until Chiyonofuji could take over. When Chiyonofuji finally retired both fullfilled their original mentor's wish in making Chiyonofuji Kokonoe Oyakata. That is why Chiyonofuji did not take the ichidai toshiyori. When former Yokozuna Hokutoumi founded his own heya Kitanofuji and the rest of the personell went with him. My take on this is because Hokutoumi was Kitanofuji's deshi while Chiyonofuji was Chiyonoyama's. Kitanofuji could concentrate on his career in the NSK which did not work out, but that is another story. I do not think Kitanofuji or anyone else was ousted from Kokonoe Beya, though. I do not recall reading many negative stories from Chiyonofuji's active time. There was the hazing of Hokutenyu's brother but overall I think he was widely respected but not liked very much by his rivals. He was also very vocal in criticizing others. The story of Akebono visiting a restaurant while kyujo or his comments on Onokuni's training come to my mind. I doubt you will find any reliable sources that will tell the whole truth on Chiyonofuji's failed Oyakata career, though.

Or a Sekiwake keeps his rank after 7-8 with the Ozeki demoted with the same score.

Onokuni and Wakanohana were very different cases. Wakanohana totally overachieved. He made the best out of what he had. In that regards he can be considered a role model because against all odds he made Yokozuna at a time where the other top guys were enormously huge. He fought them head on and was deservedly promoted to Yokozuna. Before he was promoted the general concensus was that it would be very difficult for him to hold that position and with a little bad luck because of injuries the end came quickly. Onokuni on the other hand was early on heralded as the guy who could become the dominant force of his generation. He had all the potential in the world. But he did not live up to it. He gained too much weight which slowed him down, did not enough practice, did not do degeiko, then he dropped a lot of weight and with that lost a lot of power. If we talk about potential he was an underachiever. He could have won a lot more Yusho.

That is a banzuke thing but not a basho participation thing. You can have a basho without an active Ozeki but there so far has always been at least two Ozeki on the banzuke. If there is one Ozeki he will be placed on the East side so the YokozunaOzeki comes from the West side. In Aki 1981 there were no Ozeki at all and three active Yokozuna. The top two Yokozuna were named YokozunaOzeki with the lowest ranked Yokozuna only being Yokozuna. That does not mean that it would be the same today as back than the additional Yokozuna were put as haridashi, so they were technically off the banzuke and would not represent an Ozeki on the banzuke. Today it would make more sense to have the lower ranked Yokozuna the YokozunaOzeki because otherwise the Yokozuna would be ranked behind the Ozeki.

Please read my post again and maybe take a look at the Hatsu Basho 1992 which was the crucial one for Konishiki. Do you think today a rikishi would be promoted after that kind of basho? What I agree with, by the way, is that Takanohana would have been promoted in the 70's like Kitanoumi was, but it had nothing to do with Konishiki. I am also not convinced that he would have been promoted today as his case is similar to Hakuho's. He was very young and sure to get promoted later on anyway so they made both earn it.

I exaggerarted a bit to make my point. At the start of 92 most people thought Takanohana was going to be great but has was still immature and unstable. Akebono was still seen as the next comig of Takamiyama because the general concensus was that his height would cause him too many balance problems. To make Yokozuna Konishiki should not have finished behind those two. And now back to the topic

Konishiki's numbers look better than they were in reality. In the span of 13-2Y, 12-3, 13-2Y he did not face a single Yokozuna and only one Ozeki. The crucial basho for him was the 12-3. Although the record looks good on paper he did pretty badly. His Yokozuna hopes were gone already after the first week when he was 4-3. The Yusho was won by a teenaged Maegashira with the runner-up being a 22-year old Komusubi who so far had not done better than 9-6 in his Makuuchi career. The next generation had already prematurely overtaken him in that tournament. That is far from the story you want to hear about a new Yokozuna. And the subsequent results showed how right they were in not promoting him. There were a lot of concerns that Konishiki could not handle pressure well, that his sumo lacked a good technique, that he was too inconsistent for a Yokozuna and that his enormous weight was a huge risk for a long-lasting career. His original shisho said that he needed to make Yokozuna before age 26 because he was sure Konishiki would not last long. Especially in regards to the claims of racism it is very interesting to read the Sumo World issues of that time. They clearly stated what the expectation for Konishiki was before those basho and how he failed to achieve them. The only thing Konishiki and Kisenosato have in common is the reputation of a choker. But the current competition is a lot tougher than in 1991 and 1992. There are three Yokozuna who all have won a Yusho last year plus two Ozeki who won one. Still Kisenosato got the best record in the calender year. I agree with everyone here who says it is not the most convincing Yokozuna promotion but I still think he deserves it. He has been a Yokozuna level rikishi for quite some time, he has a reliable style and now he has proven himself a Yusho winner. So congratulations to him and hopefully he will be able to handle the additional pressure that comes with being a Yokozuna.

Anyone interested in buying Takatoriki's famous Pepsi Kesho Mawashi? It is for sale on Yahoo: http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/g150388068

These cases were an answer to the statement that it would be stupid to retire before definitely losing your Ozeki rank. All the guys mentioned retired when they realized they could not hack it any longer and I personally include Kaio in that list because he was on course to his first real make koshi in ages. I think Kotoshogiku is in a different position now than he was 1,5 years ago. The young guys are getting stronger and he appears weaker to me than some months ago. The only guys he has beaten so far are still winless and Takarafuji has no other victory than over Kotoshogiku. If the Yokozuna stay in the basho I fancy them all beating him. Add to that some losses against the likes of Kisenosato, Goeido, Tamawashi, Mitakeumi or whoever he will face and his chances for kachi koshi are looking slim. Call me an oldtimer, nostalgic or whatever but I prefer the Ozeki to retire before they lay proof that they were done for.

Most guys who retired at Ozeki retired before losing 8: Kaio, Musoyama, Hokutenyu, Asashio, Wakashimazu, Masuiyama, Takanohana, Asahikuni. Now that I think of it I don't remember a single Ozeki retiring directly after a full make koshi at that rank.They usually quit when they realize they are not good enough anymore and in my view Kotoshogiku has reached that point. Better leave now than to prove it as a fact.

If I were Kotoshogiku I would retire tomorrow morning. He will probably not make kachi koshi and is just days short of his 33rd birthday. Time to call it a career.

Here is a picture of a Saisu tegata. In general tegata are like autographs. In some cases they are very difficult to read even if you know which kanji are supposed to be pictured. For example take a look at the Tamakasuga tegata on the sume reference website.

I assume these were only done in the late 70's or very early 80's. I have one with the exact same images from Dewanohana and one from Kurohimeyama which also has the yagura but also a pretty stupid drawing of his face on it. On both of those the rikishi are coloured and on Dewanohana's also the dohyo. I built up a collection of photos of tegata a while ago and went through it to check for the last tegata in the original post. I think it is Saisu. If you want to sell the tegata I might be interested in the Saisu one. From my experience you should not sell them as a bundle as for most people three Takamiyama tegata will not be worth much more than one.

The first three are definitely Takamiyama, the fourth one is Kurosegawa. I am not sure about the last one, though. The second kanji looks a bit like the zakura part in the Kotozakura Tegata I have but the first kanji looks different.

You can add Takanohana as a joint #9 with 4 zensho yusho as well.

??? What makes you think that Taiho never was a Riji??? And what about Taiho not having to buy a kabu but being the first to be allowed to carry his Shikona as an Oyakata? Even national hero Futabayama had to aquire a kabu. You should base you arguments on facts and not not on prejudices.

Yes, you sound like a horrible person and don't know what you are talking about. If someone is afraid to fall from the dohyo he should not become a rikishi, or act like Hattorizakura. Otherwise there is always the risk of falling. It is not like Sato stopped and then all of a sudden pushed Ura down. It was all in the motion. A rikishi should not stop unless he is totally sure that he has won. If Sato was not sure, he did the right thing. And then there is this "in dubio pre reo" thing, which sadly seems to be irrelevant on the internet.

I think they discussed it, agreed on Kisenosato and then Tomozuna forgot what they said and just wrote Chiyootori.