paolo

IMHO: First of all it is hard to understand why the bout was stopped, since the outside touch was not clear: let the bout go to the end, then call for a mono-ii, then you have the slow motion and you can reverse the gyoji's final call, if it is the case. Second: if you do stop the bout, you can still have a mono-ii (or can't you ?) and have the slow motion and see if you stopped the bout by mistake and decide for a torinaoshi. Third and Sad: how could Asashoryu let himself enter that situation where he was virtually lost ? The man is not there, and in a way he unfortunately deserved what happened ... But an unfair pressure on him is getting bigger and bigger.

Beyond a possible steroid abuse, could it be that he has personal problems that affect his behaviour ? Being far from home, problems with his wife, children that he does not see ? Many people are much more vulnerable to personal events than we can imagine.

I remember that many years ago I watched a fantastic duel in pole vault between Ukrain (Soviet at that time) Bubka (who was to become the immense Bubka) and French Vigneron. Vigneron was seen sitting on the ground smoking a cigarette just one minute BEFORE clearing 5.91 meters, a new world record !! Actually a minute later Bubka cleared 5.94 (also a new world record) without having smoked, but anyway ...

By your (or even anybody else's) experience, does it happen everywhere or is it only where Asashoryu goes ? And all the times ? What happens where Hakuho goes ?

Asashoryu has already understood that everything is changed now with the new stricter Rijicho. I read that, asked by a reporter about Makiko Uchidate, he answered: "I noticed she recently cut her hair, and she looks beautiful." Is it that eventually their love will not be hidden any more ?

Trying to be clearer. Four months ago there was a basho. Asashoryu appeared to have troubles with an ankle, and he could not compete at his top level. Two months ago there was a basho. Asashoryu appeared to have the same problem with the same ankle, to which he added other troubles with an elbow, and he could not compete at his top level. Now four months have gone by with problem 1 and two months with problem 2, and the troubles seem to be still there. For the third basho in a row one of the two best players in a sport will not be able to compete at his top level, due to OLD injuries, not new ones. The two injuries must be severe ones. A sportsman whatever would have gone to dozens of specialists and followed hundreds of pieces of advice. Has Asashoryu done anything really serious to heal more than bandaging, visiting water springs, speaking, making a book of pictures, waiting for miracles and so on ? That is what I find particularly strange. I recall Musashimaru not being able to receive adequate cures for his wrist...

I understand that Hakuho and Asashoryu are not in good shape, but also the others should have started training only some days ago, after Mongolian yusho, so there should still be an edge in favour of the two yokozuna (who, after all, have "won" the yusho...). Or am i missing something ? About Asashoryu's injuries: is there an official diagnosis about what the problems are ? I am always amazed to see that the only things that we know most of the times about such injuries is someting like: "the elbow hurts", "the ankle hurts" and so on. Do they go to a real doctor, do they get advice about how to cure , instead of going for months to water springs and putting a band-aid around the point and praying and hoping that the problem disappears by itself ? Professional soccer players here in Italy are followed by the best specialists of everything...

Moderator Notice Deleted by moderator Come on please Blue Wolf, let us try to keep insults away from this forum. You know that Mark Buckton is somewhat, how can I say, provokative .... exspecially when his good friend Asashoryu can be named ! So do not let yourself involved in his own game !

well actually this (can't follow all other arguments (I am not worthy...) ) isn't true. You can see it all the time, especially in the lower divisions with unexperienced gyoji that they overlook a matta or don't regard something as a matta. So they are overruled by the shimpan. That is very interesting. And how does it happen: does the head-shimpan stop the bout immediately after the matta occurs, or does he wait for the end of the bout, then mono-ii and then they say it was a matta and call for a torinaoshi ? I never happened to see it, but I only watch makuuchi (when I have time...) Thanks.

Boys, I feel as if I was writing a new chapter of the Bible without being a prophet nor an apostle .... I know that you think that I am missing your points, but somehow I think that you are missing mine... Let me try to be clearer and summarize. In 999 cases out of 1000 the gumbai is raised and "Shobu ari/Shobu atta" yelled (=whistle blown) AFTER everything happened (touch down or touch out); the two rikishi stop, a mono-ii possibly occurs. Every action has occurred BEFORE the referee's (the gyoji's, exceptionally the head-shimpan's) intervention. The first who has touched down or out loses, with the possible exceptions of a shinitai case or a torinaoshi for simultaneous touch down. That is clear. What we are discussing is only the 1000th case, where some action occurs AFTER the first referee's intervention. Incidentally: when I wrote "raises his gumbai" I meant of course "raises his gumbai AND yells shobu ari" and whatever the gyoji performs to stop the bout. I do not think that the gyoji raises his gumbai if he does not want to stop the bout... Strictly coming to the point: You will excuse me, that is exactly what I cannot believe. I will believe it when I see a true case happening, and in that case I will open a new thread just to apologize with you in public. Please follow me: the gyoji wanted to stop the bout because he had seen a winner (Ogi). If the two stop (it is the ONLY LOGICAL thing to do, since the gyoji yelled to stop), then Ogi should be the winner, then the gyoji himself (or the mono-ii) discovers that the decision was wrong, therefore torinaoshi. So far, so good. If the two by any reason do not stop, that is the WRONG thing to do, which should NOT happen since the gyoji has yelled to stop; then how can what follows become decisive for the bout ? IMO this seems also to contradict what you write later: Why should then the shimpan stop the bout almost immediately ? My answer is: because there is no use for the bout to go on when a decision by the gyoji has already been taken. Why else ? Is there another explanation ? Yes, but the match was stopped due to the gyoji's intervention; then the gyoji himself realized that his decision was wrong... Watching the video, it is hard to say who was the most puzzled among the gyoji, the shimpan, the rikishi .... That actually shows that the gyoji has more power then it looks, because if he does not see a matta, there is no matta ! Hmmm.... A bit forced ? That will be very very very interesting for me !!! I am really longing to read it ! Thanks. I agree, and we have seen many gyoji's decisions reversed or "torinaoshi-ed". But have you ever seen a gyoji's decision (gumbai+yell) IGNORED, and the win awarded based on the events that followed ? If so, please show me a video and I will believe ... I appreciate your taking care of my health and you may be right... Actually I feel at least as exhausted as Hananotaka now...I know that there are more important things in life ! But I find this topic so interesting ! Thanks.

On the shinitai-kabaite point: as far as I understand the two concepts are separate in the sense that you can have shinitai without kabaite, probably not kabaite without shinitai. In the Asashoryu-Kotonowaka we can debate whether or not Asashoryu was shinitai ( I do not think so for the reasons that shomishuu clearly explains), but was Kotonowaka kabaite ? Everything I read says more or less "kabaite=touching the ground with a hand to avoid aite's injury". I would say that was not the case. Kotonowaka lands the first (not only with his hand but also with his leg, by the way) clearly far away from Asashoryu, and if he wins it should be because Asashoryu is considered shinitai and that's it. I see it conceptually more or less as the same case that occurred in the recent Asashoryu-Tochinonada (touching down first but with opponent shinitai) or when a rikishi lifts the other and transports him outside the tawara touching out with his foot before the other, who is considered shinitai.

Come on, please take it easy, I apologize for giving you all this trouble ! I am not so important, after all. Unfortunately I was born a curious guy, and to make things worse I am also an engineer, so I would like to understand (you may think that I understand very slowly,if at all ...). Add that I am getting older and, as you seem to have noticed, that makes me rather annoying many a time... What I still do not understand (and probably never will) is this incredible (to me..) thing that the raising of the gumbai does not represent the end of the action. Following your words, let me make you an example that I hope you will be so kind as to give an answer to (come on, the last one!). What would have happened if Toki had gone on fighting and had it been Toki the one to push Oginishiki out immediately later ? Oginishiki could have maintained that the gyoji had already given him the win (even if wrongly..) and that he (Oginishiki) had consequently stopped: why should he have continued on ? And a side question: the gyoji raises the gumbai because he is convinced that A has touched outside the tawara (IMO the bout should be over, it might remain to be judged if A has really touched outside). A and B do not stop and go on fighting for several minutes, while nothing important happens. Do nobody stop them ? If yes, who ? Does the bout go on just because the two rikishi didn't realize that the gumbai has already been pointed ? I really do not see why these questions should be considered silly or should put you on. It is not my intention ! Regards. paolo

------------ vpl,jejima,ryafuji briefly discuss a simple case of torinaoshi without the two guys falling simultaneously ( I find fascinating that I woke up tonight thinking exactly of that case !!! ). Torinaoshi because what else can be decided ? .... ------------ shomishuu says "As a little aside, after viewing the slo-mo replay HNT has provided, I believe it's possible that the gyoji began to raise his gumbai because he believed Asashoryu was about to land on his back (i.e., no shinitai, just a simple matter of one rikishi landing first). There was ample time to 'get the story straight' before delivering it to the media. Maybe - whatever... On the doutai though, HNT is spot on, the shimpan were confused and wimpish.... ". Exactly my point of view !! ------------ hananotaka says "This isn't a sport, this is sumo. The gyoji raising his gumbai doesn't stop the bout, making everything afterwards immaterial. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to tell you, but that's the way it is. And that's the way it was here. That the gyoji raised his gumbai before Asa touched down was not part of the discussion at all. The only questions were "Asashoryu - ikitai or shinitai? Kotonowaka - tsukite or kabaite?". The gyoji are supposed to raise their gumbai when they feel the match is decided. If they're wrong, that's what the shimpan are there for." Needless to say, I am sorry but I miss you completely. First of all, IMO the action was so quick and completely unusual that neither the gyoji nor the shimpan had a clear idea of the timings, that you and I can easily reconstruct only with the slow motion ! Who among all this forum's attendants have ever seen a rikishi that is thrown with a perfect nage, does NOT fall, does NOT touch down and actually seems to force his opponent down BEFORE himself ? As Shomishuu says (and I agree), probably the gyoji began to raise his gumbai because he believed Asashoryu was about to land on his back. Second: once again probably I was not clear. I had understood that you meant the gyoji pointed his gumbai BEFORE Kotonowaka fell, considering Asashoryu shinitai and end-of-story. So Kotonowaka in that exact moment is the winner, how can you maintain that the bout is not over ? If the shimpan think that the gyoji's decision was wrong, we are exactly in the case that vpl raises: they cannot award the win to Asashoryu because they cannot consider what happened AFTER the gyoji gave the win to Kotonowaka ! They could have done so only if the win was given to Kotonowaka AFTER he touched the ground. Only in that case they could have decided that Kotonowaka was kabaite (win) or tsukite (loss) ! What i do not know in this case is: if they cannot come to an agreement, what should they do ? Do they go by majority, do they hold the gyoji's verdict, or what ? that's why I find the torinaoshi the least evil... Sorry, getting older I get also more and more verbose....

Did he also add "... BEFORE the two fell down ?". If that is the case, then there is no discussion and on the point you are right ! You say that it is clear from the video, but I watched it many times, and I still think it is at least highly debatable... I am so sorry not to see anything ridiculous in this discussion. Your reconstruction of the sequence of events is very clear, but actually I had it clear from the very first moment we started this discussion. Where I do not follow you, on the contrary, is where you say that " What happens after the gyoji's decision is NOT immaterial ". I may be missing something in sumo rules regarding the gyoji's decision, and if this is the case I apologize. ".... Time and existence doesn't stop because the gyoji raises his gumbai - the rikishi are still in motion. " That is philosophy, but in all sports of every kind the referee's intervention stops the bout, the point, whatever. Nothing that happens afterwards can ever be taken into consideration to award the win or the point. And when there is a chance of an immediate appeal (tennis, american football, rugby, ice hockey, and so on...), the referee's decision can be changed only with regard to what happened BEFORE and UNTIL the decision is concerned, never considering what happened AFTER it. Cases are so clear that I do not make examples, if you need them please let me know. But as a last point, suppose that (like in many sports) the gyoji, before pointing the gumbai to the winner, had to blow a whistle when he considers the bout over. In our case, following your reasoning, the gyoji would have blown when he considered Asashoryu shinitai BEFORE the two fell down. The bout is over ! How could anything that happened AFTER THE WHISTLE be taken into consideration to award the win ? The only thing that can be discussed in a mono-ii is "was the gyoji right or wrong to stop the bout at that moment ?". Have I been clearer ? Thanks all for the patience...

He did. Watch the video. He starts to point to Kotonowaka before Kotonowaka touches down, and long before Asashoryu touches down. I'm afraid your opinion is mistaken. The gyoji is on record as pointing to Kotonowaka because he believed Asa was shinitai. I'm afraid I still disagree.... And this is what was wrong. A torinaoshi is NOT supposed to be called when there's no agreement. A torinaoshi is called when there's a decision of "doutai" - both falling at the same time. Because Kotonowaka clearly touched before Asashoryu, there can be no doutai. Either Asa was ikitai and Koto lost, or Asa was shinitai and Koto won. The question of shinitai is one that can be debated. That's a judgment call. But the sequence of events are quite clear, and the rules regarding torinaoshi are clear. Kotonowaka touched first, so there can be no doutai, and thus should have been no torinaoshi. May I insist that the situation is a paradox: if you are right you may be wrong !!. Let us say that you are right, and the gyoji starts pointing to Kotonowaka because he considers Asashoryu shinitai. None of the two has touched the ground yet, when the gyoji's decision has already been taken; the bout is over, Kotonowaka is the winner, what happens later is immaterial, who touches the ground the first AFTER the gyoji's decision is immaterial. Now comes the mono-ii, where the 5 judges agree that the gyoji's decision ( considering the bout over because Asashoryu was shinitai) was wrong. Since what happened AFTER the gyoji's decision is obviously immaterial because the bout was over, what else should they have decided for, other than a torinaoshi ? (I am sorry to bore many forum attendants with a discussion that is referred to an old bout, but I find it very interesting. Maybe the moderator would like to move it to another topic ? )

Disagree on whether Asashoryu was ikitai or shinitai if you like, but the rules are quite clear and there's no way this was not a bad decision. If Asa is ikitai, as you suppose, Kotonowaka touched first and is the clear loser. If Asa is shinitai, as I believe (that he didn't immediately fall down is irrelevant; when you can not right yourself under your own power and all you can do is hold on and let your weight pull your opponent down, you're shinitai, and you've already lost), then Kotonowaka wins. There was no need for a torinaoshi, even if it was something the judges never saw before. Not to quarrel, but I doubt that the rules are so clear ... If you are right, that is if Asashoryu has already lost, the gyoji should stop the bout immediately: why should the bout go on if the winner is already defined? In my opinion the gyoji pointed to Kotonowaka because he thought that Asashoryu had touched the ground the first, which is not true.... The 5 judges could not come to an agreement, so they decided for the torinaoshi. By the way, as I asked at that time without having an answer, if this situation is so clear and usual, can somebody please show me another movie of a similar situation ? Thanks and regards !

IMO: 1. Asashoryu-Tochinonada. I agree, a clear loss. 2. Asashoryu-Hakuho: Hakuho succeeds in changing the bout at the very last moment. Asashoryu is very lucky because the action takes place at the North-East corner, so Hakuho touches the ground before Asashoryu touches the ground himself outside the dohyo, and the impression is that Asashoryu has pushed Hakuho to the ground. If only the action had been at the Northern side (45 degrees counterclockwise) , Hakuho's win would have been clear. 3. Asashoryu-Kotonowaka. I disagree. Kotonowaka's nage is perfect and should be winning, but ... Asashoryu does not fall down, so he has not lost yet and the gyoji cannot stop the bout ! Asashoryu looks at Kotonowaka, pulls strongly on his mawashi and makes him fall, and Asashoryu should be the winner. The judges have never seen so strange a situation (I presume very few people have...) and in the end decide for the torinaoshi. All things considered, not a bad decision.

IMHO: 1) If a sportsman of any sport is injured, first of all he has got to heal, otherwise he will never be able to play with selfconfidence. This is true for Asashoryu as well, even if this requires a time longer than the time between two bashos. If he fails, he would rather give up. 2) This "more added weight " story... Apart from his determination, Asashoryu has become what he is because of his speed and technique, in spite of his relatively small build and relatively light weight. Adding weight (and expecially when getting older in sumo terms) could slow him down a lot and take his best qualities out of him. His tachiai is getting more and more vague. If he also loses his speed he will be just a rikishi weighting like many others but smaller. What would be the advantage for him ?

Entering Info_Sumo site not only do I not see any Nagoya's bouts, but all the others from the others bashos seem to have evanished. Am I still sleeping or has something happened ? Thanks....

I fully agree, exactly for the same reasons; I am exactly in the same situation as you are. But unfortunately this service is performed using somebody else's property .... So in "legal" terms if Info_Sumo makes the stuff freely available to somebody that otherwise would not be able to see anything, then a blind eye could possibly be turned around. But what if there is money running, under any circumstances ? That is a difference with YouTube or Torrent or similar . Needless to say, this has nothing to do with the fact that the service is certainly more than worth 5 or 10 euros a basho.

Trying to go back to the topic's title: I read that Hakuho was starting keiko just after LA jungyo. Are any news coming from Mongolia about what Asashoryu is doing there (is he training or what else ?). I understand that he is there with a permission by the Kyokai, but anyway 20 days without training seem too long a period of time for a rikishi. And it seems impossible that he can enter an acceptable form within the fifteen days before July basho. Is something else going on ?

Gossip ot truth ? Is Asashoryu still married ? His parents, his brothers and his children are mentioned sometimes , but his wife is not since a long time...

Good to see that there are no problems with Kitanoumi and the Kyokai, but what kind of training is Asashoryu going to perform in Mongolia for twenty days ? I can imagine weight lifting, gym practice and so on, but what about keiko ? And will ten days in Japan before next basho be enough to put him in good shape ? After all he had an unsatisfactory 11-4 last basho, and his tachiai was weak... I do not think that the other rikishi practice the same way as Asashoryu. Or am I wrong ?

Actually what I find very much to be appreciated of her is the fact that she says what she thinks, which is clearly not everybody's attitude around her. To tell the truth this does not look exactly a good example.... As far as I have read, nobody had made any objections to a left-handed person taking kensho with his left hand, before Ms. Uchidate woke up one morning and decided it was not good. The development of the story suggests that everybody, Asashoryu included, decided in the end that it was better for him to change to the right hand just to prevent useless discussions. Maybe a womanish whimsy ?

The stare between the two after the bout was unbelievable, amazing, the most "alive" thing I have seen for a long time! I found it the most entertaining moment in years ! Provided they do not come to a riot, what else is expected if and when somebody (Kyokai, YDC) tends to create the saga of the "good" Yokozuna and the "naughty" Yokozuna ?