paolo

I give up. Thank you all.

You keep mentioning others on the list are putting you down and dismissing you as a newbie of sort. Well if you write a post like this, you deserve it. As for your other questions, you will find them in this Forum. I just advise you to use Search function. This is irrelevant to what we are discussing here. Once more, I take a point about which others have said something; I ask some questions (sincerely, not in a polemic mood) because I remember something different; and somebody else finds that my questions were not worth asking and are not even worth an answer. You must be right, I am wasting my time.

I am very curious about this, and may be one of you or somebody else can answer. This story of the left hand to pick up the kensho came out just because Mrs. Uchidate on that very day had not found anything better to criticize Asashoryu. My questions: 1. had there not been any other left handed rikishi who took the envelopes with his left hand ? Had he been scolded and/or warned ? 2. is it true that the "triple movement" or whatever it is called is recent, it is not part of sumo tradition, and nobody worried too much about it before Asashoryu gave an opportunity to say something? Are you sure about that ? I had an impression that in the first following basho he occasionally switched from one hand to the other, as if he could not always remember that he had to use his "wrong hand". From the second (or maybe the third) basho he consistently used his right.... By the way, if i remember correctly, Mrs. Uchidate even praised the beauty and the nobility of his new gesture... Am I wrong ? You say "against his will", but I am trying to figure how long it would take me ( I am right handed) to remember that I have to pickup things with my left if I had to.... The man has made some mistakes in the past; is there a need to find something more to blame him ?

A different context in a different article-"Whatever situation he is in, I hope he gambarizes. We've all been there.... He couldn't have become a Yokozuna with a weak spirit". This sounds better.. It is simply the other way around... Much much better then ! Thanks for the new translation.

Possible answers in my opinion: 1. an undisclosed agreement has already been found with the Kyokai, and Asashoryu has been asked and convinced to give a "sign of good will". Probability: virtually none. 2. some of the people around him have been able eventually to convince him to give a "sign of good will" because they think that it will make the situation more favourable in view of a decision by the Kyokai. Probability: some. 3. he has started to recover and understands it is better for him to get treatment in a more convenient environment. My God, how much would I like it... After all, this is the first potentially positive piece of news in 22 days. Something has moved ! It is going to be a very long and tough road, though..... This doctor should be asked to visit Asashoryu immediately and to express her medical opinion. Or isn't she a doctor ? Very sad to hear such not nice remarks about a collegue...

Ho vissuto vicino al Napoli. Il mio italiano non

...... Che cazzo stai dicendo? ........ May I ask a favour ? I know that this statement is not routed to me, so perhaps it should not be me the one who says anything. But I am italian, so I perfectly know what it means. The debate is strong and fierce enough. Can we please avoid using such impolite ( just to use an euphemism ... ) phrases ? Can we please provide our different opinions without using so heavy expressions ? Thanks Are you going to complain again on the Sumo Mailing List that Sumo Forumers are treating you badly? Have I ? When ? What has your question to do with my post ? This time you may be the one who missed the point completely .... It was not so hard to understand: please read the following kind answer to my post, that shows that there are also people to which a polite remark (like mine was) can be done without causing them to get upset: Ho vissuto vicino al Napoli. Il mio italiano non

...... Che cazzo stai dicendo? ........ May I ask a favour ? I know that this statement is not routed to me, so perhaps it should not be me the one who says anything. But I am italian, so I perfectly know what it means. The debate is strong and fierce enough. Can we please avoid using such impolite ( just to use an euphemism ... ) phrases ? Can we please provide our different opinions without using so heavy expressions ? Thanks

Unlike many of our more knowledgeable members (or moderators), I'm quite reluctant to justify everything that happens in sumo as a regular, perfectly normal event in terms of the "Japanese way", or obviously inherent to the spirit of Sumo. It seems like any decision by the Kyokai would've been approved by the bulk of the posters in this forum, on the basis that that is how decisions are made in Japan, and in sumo. The basic principle I don't want to dispute, and no-one is saying that there should be a more "democratic" process involved in decision-making. This doesn't mean, however, that the NSK (or whoever the precise decision-making body is) can't make mistakes. It seems to have put itself in a very awkward situation, in my opinion because of the desire to decide (too) rapidly. Things have, quite obviously, gone way out of hand. The initial purpose was to show a firm hand, a proper response to a major faux-pas by the Yokozuna. So far so good, and a heavy penalty is something I would've felt perfectly natural. Roho's three day suspension, from criminally-reprehensible behavior, was too light, but the distance from that to suspension for two basho is pretty huge. Ex-Yokozuna Kitanofuji himself received a much lesser penalty, for surfing right after going kyujo on an ongoing basho (as mentioned earlier in the thread) ; while I understand that jungyo should be considered as important as honbasho, I don't think it's MORE important, justifying such a difference in treatment. As far as I know, no hints of pressure for Asa to go intai were given, and I don't think anyone suggested that the suspension was a roundabout way for the kyokai to ask for asa's retirement. Had that been the case, any punishment would've seemed proper, a simple message that it was time for him to go. But in the current circumstances, I can't help but think that the whole thing boils down to an excessive decision made in haste. If Asashoryu really does leave sumo - which I really wouldn't have thought possible when this thread began, but begins to look likely now - this story will leave a scar on sumo. Not because of the fact that Asa will have left (there have been other yokozuna in the past and there will be many more), but because the Kyokai will have shown its inability to properly handle a serious situation. That's why I think a lot of people feel pretty uncomfortable about this whole thing ; it feels like something which got out of hand somehow, spread without any control, and will have, on the way, caused the (excessive) loss of a brilliant rikishi and deprived us of the pleasure of watching some of the most enjoyable sumo I've seen in the last few years. The responsibility, of course, is shared - Asashoryu should be standing up and acting like a Yokozuna, but he clearly feels that the brutality of the punishment was unfair, and must be wondering what he's doing in a place where all the efforts he's made through the years seem to have brought him no sympathy, and no support at this difficult time. I come back just for a minute, because I saw somebody else maintain more or less the same opinions that I have and that I could more or less fully subscribe. Now I have just realized that he is italian like me.... It must be because we are so romantic and sentimental .... But we understand so little ....

I don't know you or your situation, but it may be useful for you to read, study, and find out more about Japan in general, and the "Japanese way". It may be helpful in comprehending sumo, and this situation, more clearly. I thank you for your kind advice that I will immediately follow, and I will post something again only when I am ready. If I understand your point correctly, it might take me years. Not bad anyway: if decisions are made up with this speed, when I come back the situation will be probably the same as now...

I apologize for inserting a word about this in a moment that must be very sad for many people ( I took the above sentence from another topic ). If only Asashoryu could and would, how positive it would be for a start !

Again, very very interesting. All other considerations apart, the Kyokai has shown a very (how can I say) "traditional" approach to this case; they seem to have thought: here is a punishment, the man will pay for it, Takasago will manage it, fullstop. They seem to have been completely caught off guards by the evolution (Asashoryu's nervous breakdown or whatever it is), and this can be understood. After 15 days though it seems that not only have they done nothing to come out of the situation, but (what is worse) they do not have any ideas on what must be done. To my western eyes this looks very bad for a structure that is supposed to manage so important a business. Now very slow moves start to be performed: statements that say "we would like to have Asashoryu back", "his attendance at the funeral would be appreciated" and similar. But they are still very slow.... Is it because their way of approaching problems is very rigid ? Let me give an example: Takasago is not dependable and he doesn't seem to say and do anything intelligent ? OK. Then I am Kitanoumi and I want to see what the problem is with my eyes. I go to Asashoryu myself and tell Asashoryu directly how the situation is. Do the Kyokai really want Asashoryu back and maybe it would be a good idea to send the man to Mongolia ? What big difference does it make after all ? New meeting, new decision: considering the situation, he can go to Mongolia. And so on. How the hell can a situation like this be left without any decision ? I appreciate very much that in the end this is "clearly" stated by the Minister !!!

That is very interesting: a dubitative sentence about the "arrest", and a formal statement they want Asashoryu back. I know they may be just formal, but it could be instead a first step towards a "normalization": I still do not see what the Kyokai have got to earn from the elongation of this personalized drama. By the way, is it "normal" that an explanation is given by sumo authorities to a Ministry ? Is some hidden intervention of Mongolian government presumable ? Interesting is also the sentence by the minister: if the accent was more on the word "normal" than on the word "leadership", then a clear message would have been given to the Kyokai.....

What we assumed was that Kitanoumi was actually trying to soften up the hardliners from the start, but failed. Maybe today some of the hardliners have softened a bit, but I find it very hard to believe any kind of "discount" will be given now. Kitanoumi will not decide against the "flow" made up of his peers and the YDC. Actually I was implying something even deeper, more difficult, and (in my opinion of course) much more intelligent in the long run: in a word, Kitanoumi himself, representing the Kyokai, could VISIT Asashoryu and explain him that the punishment was due (no discount at all must and can be given), but that the Kyokai EXPECTS him to pay for it and then COME BACK to Sumo as a true Yokozuna. If this is the truth, of course; but otherwise we must admit that everything is over, virtually nothing can be done, and all these words and opinions that we are exchanging on this forum and anywhere are useless.... It has never been done, I know; but how many times has a Yokozuna been so harshly punished ? and how many times did they have a Yokozuna on the edge, or perhaps well inside, a nervous breakdown ? I happen to think that this could be the positive shock that is needed in Asashoryu's case; and after all, isn'it also the Kyokai's interest to come out of this case in the less expensive way ? Please do not be horrified, it's my nature: in general terms I like to see people that try to find a way to solve the problem, much more than speak for hours about the thousand philosophical reasons why the problem cannot be solved ....

First possibility: he clearly knows or understands that the Kyokai would not allow it. Second possibility: he is trying to show the Kyokai how strong a man he is, since HE will not even hear such a recommendation .... I never liked to see a boss leave his man alone, even less if this is done to try to save his own ass. Could this be the case ? I understand your point, but I continue to think that, Takasago's face apart, Sumo's world should do something to save the situation: I still do not understand what has Sumo to earn in dismissing Asashoryu or letting him fade away. What do you think of my idea of Kitanoumi taking care of the issue ? Possible or impossible ? Useful ? Stupid ? After all this is certainly an extraordinary situation. Dealing with it in a extraordinary way might be very intelligent....

I understand. My God. This connect also to your following point : So in the end Takasago gave up..... After all, is he really inadequate then ? Life is not made only of the money that you earn through other people, sometimes you have to earn it with blood and sweat and tears ....

1. Criticizing is everyone's national sport. I mean: criticizing is the only activity that all men performs along their whole life and does not require a specific education in it ! Too easy, too pleasant, too full of satisfactions !! 2. Takasago and Takasago's faults. Takasago is trying to save what can be saved, but he is clearly new to a situation like this and he is just proceeding by trial and error ( more errors than trials, maybe...). Who knows what is the right thing to do ? It's easy to say: just go to Asashoryu and tell him to do this and to do that: what if he does not do it ? And if Asashoryu does not come come back, Takasago will lose a lot of money; and if he does not show that he can manage the situation he might also lose the Heya (could it be possible ?). In my opinion the point is: does Asashoryu recognize Takasago as somebody he can have confidence in and he can trust ? The answer, if I understand correctly the issue, is NO. This can depend on their past relationship; on their being a Yokozuna and a Ozeki; on the gifts for Asashoryu's marriage of which Takasago wanted to have the main part; on the fact that they both know that Asashoryu's existence means a good amount of money for Takasago; and/or on a lot of other things. If Asashoryu really is in he condition that doctors say he is in ( and I do not see why should we doubt it), what he needs is a reference person to listen to. It is apparent by now that it cannot be Takasago, and Takasago himself appears to have realized it well: that is probably the reason why he invited or allowed the "manager", or "chief of fans", or whoever the guy is, to speak to Asashoryu. But in this case it seems that an authoritative person is needed: someone that could be seen as a "father". Paradoxally, if the Kyokai is interested in having Asashoryu back to work, and keeping of course the punishment as it is since it cannot be changed any more, the right person should and could be Kitanoumi himself !!

The papers are obviously right. It is not enough for him not to go out and see people outside for 4 months (!?!); even when he is at home he must only see very few people. Just to be positive, I would have some practical proposals: 1. an official list (the shorter, the better) of the few persons he is allowed to see must be defined by the Kyokai as soon as possible. 2. all visits must be announced in advance. 3. a policeman must remain in front of the main door, one in front of the back door, one in front of each window, and probably one near the chimney to check that nobody enters without permission. Any person who wants to see Asashoryu must be on the list (see point 1) and show his identity document before being allowed in. 4. in order to avoid that Asashoryu buys the policemen as he bought the bashos, a TV must continously monitor the policemen themselves to see they do not accept money from Asashoryu or anybody else. 5. an iron mask like the one used at the times of the Kings of France might be used around Asashoryu's head to prevent him to see anybody who in spite of all controls succeeded to enter his house. The mask's key should be kept by the Kyokai, given to the preannounced visitor before the visit and given back to the Kyokai immediately after the visit. Any visitor that happened to omit this step would be immediately cancelled from the list. NO MERCY FOR THE CRIMINAL !!! This is quite probable, but very few of us would like to be in his position and very few of us would know what to do. He is probably trying to do the following two things at the same time: a. save Asashoryu's few chances to go on in Sumo. That is why he explains so long that Asashoryu's psychical conditions do not allow him to give a conference press right now (which is probably true), even if this is a double edged weapon. b. save his own ass. That is why he gives details about how much he is trying to convince Asashoryu to the press conference. This is a double edged weapon too, because in this way he admits he failed up to now. I have the impression that sometimes he speaks too much, but in his very very difficult situation not to say anything would probably be worse. This would be very strange. In my opinion, if the Kyokai thought that he had to intai, they would have had to tell him. Or Asashoryu could have left immediately, in anger, saying that he could not accept the punishment. Now, as far as we are told, he is not in such a condition as to take such a decision in control of himself. Unless we think, of course, that the Kyokai are so coward that they did not dare to dismiss him, but just put him in a situation where HE had to retire. Are they ?

I would like to reassure everybody that I close here my considerations on the "adult and civilized behaviour", and I would like to thank all of those who have expressed their opinion on my posts. Allow me please just a last final and cumulative comment on the latest posts regarding the matter: ---------------------------------- Of course I fully disagree. ---------------------------------- Nishinoshima had taken a sentence of mine out of the context and I explained why. Of course if he so wishes he can answer me how and when and how many times he likes. I do not think that it is very fair that another person scolds me about what I wrote about Nishinoshima's comments. ---------------------------------- I appreciate the long description that you gave and I cannot but agree that if one accepts all that it is his own business. The only sentence that I left above actually summarizes everything within few words. Let me only add for the last time that I was not referring to what is freely accepted (all those heavy conditions that you described), but to the way in which the decision of the punishment was taken. ---------------------------------- Why would they have to hear what he has to say? There was enough circumstantial evidence as was pointed out a few posts above. Apart from the fact that it wasn't really the first time that rules had been flouted. What would have been the purpose of hearing Asashoryu? Since case appears to be not about the soccer game but the absence from the Jungyo. - Do you think it would have good for Asashoryu trying to explain why he didn't want to participate in the Jungyo tour? I think that it wouldn't have been a good idea for Asashoryu to try to argue in front of the board, this would only have aroused more passion on both sides. At least one between you and me must have understood very little or nothing of what is going on and must have very strange ideas on how a justice whatever must be administered. It must be me. So forgive me. I apologize and I stop here.

You don't need to be Japanese to understand. However if you try to judge what is happening by comparing it to other sports or to real life then you never will. Sumo is a feudal world. It doesn't operate by the same rules as other sports. In fact it's not even a sport really. It's a way of life. I think that is the problem for the people who post saying "it's not fair that...." They don't understand this vital point and continue to judge the whole situation from the point of view of other sports or real life court cases etc. The aim of my post was a bit wider than the single sentence that you quote. The main point was that, for the first time after 20 days, 500 posts and 2000 e-mails, I eventually discovered that the directors meeting did not even HEAR Asashoryu. So they judged looking only at the facts, their anger, telephone calls, fan reactions, without taking into consideration the ways and the circumstances, (which in ALL cases are as important as the facts themselves). Not only did they that, but did they not give the accused any chance to explain and defend himself. These are facts, aren't they ? I ask those who understand: is this an adult and civilized behaviour ? There is no doubt that Asashoryu made a mistake, that is there and remains there even if the ways and the circumstances show that it was much less severe than what it looks. I am not defending his actions. I am considering the way he was treated by the directors. They complain that Asashoryu does not behave like a yokozuna: did they treat him like a yokozuna (I could even say: like a man), refusing to hear what he had to say ?

That sounds unbelievable: you have a Yokozuna that has almost certainly made a big mistake and you do not even hear what he has got to say ? This would precisely mean that a judgement has been taken by a directors meeting in anger and maybe under a pressure of phone calls from disappointed people. In what civilized environment can it be considered acceptable that a judge does not even let the person accused explain and defend himself ? If things went like you described them, for the first time I start to think that Asashoryu, apart from his big mistake, has got some reason to be in the state he is...... But maybe I am not Japanese and so I cannot understand ?

Is the above correct ? I thought that I had read that he was interviewed by the Kyokai just after his return from Mongolia, and therefore before the final judgment. It is important to know, because if the Kyokai had never heard his version, the Kyokai themselves would have behaved in a way that should be considered unconceivable (at least in western world...).

Interesting point. I thought that it had only been the doctors to say that he had to go to Mongolia. Was it Asashoryu to ask to go to Mongolia ? There is a certain difference between the two cases !

In my opinion, Takasago perfectly knows that he must move with care. Apart from any other considerations, Asashoryu is his "hen of the golden eggs" as we say in Italy, that is the man who produces money for him, and he has to try everything he can to put a remedy to this very very dangerous situation. It is hard to believe that he visited Asashoryu only once in these days (can that be true?). Anyway Takasago needs to do everything he can to have Asashoryu back again and able to be the great Asashoryu (otherwise everything would be meaningless). This means first of all to make him personally come out of his "depression or pre-depression or sadness or deep stress or whatever it is" condition, and then to try and reestablish an acceptable relationship between Asashoryu and the Kyokai and between the Kyokai and Asashoryu. Some main points are: are the Kyokai REALLY willing to accept Asashoryu back after the punishment has been paid for ? Is Asashoryu ready to say he admits he has made a mistake and accepts the punishment ? Are the Kyokai ready to accept these words WITHOUT requiring him to be on his knees (that, in my opinion and by the way, would not be a yokozuna-like behaviour...) ?. If all the answers are YES, something can still be done to save the situation. Otherwise the game is over. Therefore: asking that Asashoryu is allowed to go to Mongolia now, even if it might be perfectly justified in medical terms, could be "politically" inappropriate; moreover, if Takasago already knows or has a suspicion that many are not in favour, it would be a suicide. Let me add a word. I do not understand why there is so strong an accent on the words "humbly" , "apologize unreservedly" and so on. A man is a man and can make mistakes. Asashoryu for sure made one. But we must also keep into consideration that he was not dancing in a discoteque or around to have good time with girls. He was doing a charity activity, that he was asked by his government with insistence and that in a first time he refused to do. Undoubtedly he made a mistake, even bigger considering all the circumstances (the medical certificate, the jungyo and so on) and he was punished in a very very severe way. Acknowledging that should be enough. Why should he be humiliated ? Would the Kyokai like to see a Yokozuna humiliated ? Suffice it to say that these two comments are really humanly unbelievable.

In my opinion Asashoryu cannot stay if he thinks he is not competitive. He is a fighter and he wants to win: in no way can he adapt himself to a plain "kachikoshi" life. If he can recover from his problems (I hope so, but I have some doubts), he must be at the top level, because he will have to tackle a situation in which he now KNOWS for certain he is not liked. Under some circumstances this might have a strong positive effect on a person's pride; I am afraid though that his self confidence has been seriously affected by this story. He should fight without looking around him with his fierce glance, now knowing that many and many are hoping that he will fall. This can be a very tough environment in which to play a sport..... But I like his sumo so much that I really hope he finds in himself the moral strength to survive. I fear it is just a hope....