Morty

I seriously doubt that Hakuho experienced late puberty but at any rate, why the desperation in disproving my assertion that the Yokozuna's dominance is entirely due to his use of PEDs? ;-) I'm not disproving anything because you haven't put forward any evidence to support your argument. All you've done is make cynical statements without basis in fact. What I'm doing is providing some factual evidence to this debate. And besides I like engaging with trolls. I'm weird like that.

Re body mass after 16. Puberty happens at different time with different people. Here is the wiki page on puberty in males and females: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty Just in case you can't find the relevant bit I'll quote it: This muscle develops mainly during the later stages of puberty, and muscle growth can continue even after boys are biologically adult. The peak of the so-called "strength spurt", the rate of muscle growth, is attained about one year after a male experiences his peak growth rate. The fact that Hakuho grew 3.5cm in that year and then added another couple after that would suggest that he went through puberty late and was still growing, and putting on muscle, until about the age of 20. Beyond that there are other ways to gain both muscle and fat without the aid of PEDs. The internet is your friend if you want to find out how and maybe learn a bit how the human body really works, rather than relying on specious generalisations that undermine your argument :-).

Without meaning to patronise you, I know you are new to sumo and there are differences with other combat sports. Yes, rikishi are athletes but they are not the same as other fighters, and they don't operate in the same world as other professional athletes. Sumo is not a sport in the same way that other combat sports are. The heya world controls every aspect of a rikishi's life from what they eat, where they go, how they dress, whether they are allowed to drive cars etc. Each rikishi at any level is under the command of a shisho who pretty much runs their life. See wikipedia's take on sumo life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumo#Life_as_a_professional_sumo_wrestler So to answer your question why they wouldn't be on the gas, is because it goes against all the tradition of sumo. The conservative shisho's wouldn't condone it so the rikishis wouldn't use it. The risks are simply too great. The culture of sumo is why they wouldn't be using steroids. Cultural prohibitions often outweigh the need to win at all costs

Once again I ask for clear and not circumstantial evidence. Looking at any photo of Hakuho make it pretty clear to me that all that weight isn't "muscle mass". If he had low body fat then you would have a case, but the man has a clinically obese BMI and as Kuroyama said, he also grew 3.5cm. At least half of that weight gain would have been fat. Two other observations. First, it is possible to put on significant weight in a short period of time simply through the consumption of a high fat diet. A friend of mine went from 92kgs to 136kgs in a six month period while working at an ice cream factory, without any additional increase in height. The high percentage of obese people in western nations would suggest that men are capable of putting on weight after the age of 16. Second, evidence from another sport would suggest rapid muscle mass increase is possible without recourse to illgal drugs. In Australian Rules Football, which has an extremely rigorous drug testing system, athletes the same age as Hakuho was when he had his major weight gain, and of the same height, regularly put on 10 to 15kg of muscle over the off-season simply through a concentrated weights and diet program. The way these occur are a matter of public record here in Australia. Because they are endurance athletes they have no added increase in fat but add the fat a sumo wrestler carries to the equation and you have your 35kg over 12 months. Hakuho's increase in weight over 12 months is attributable to hard work, a high fat diet and a growth spurt of 3.5cm. To assume any increase in size or performance is drug related is cynical in the extreme. The arguments being forwarded here in support of steroid use are all circumstantial, slightly hysterical, without factual basis, and explainable by other means. No-one has yet provided any proveable evidence in support of steroid use.

So far everyone has said "they must be roiding because it's obvious" but nobody has put forward any evidence. In the absence of drug testing (the only true proof of steroid use), there are a couple of other obvious physical signs (apart from increased strength and mass), that are dead giveaways that people are roiding. One of the most prominant is acne, which often springs up all over a person's back. While it doesn't happen to everyone it does happen to a majority of steroid users. Given that all these guys wear nothing more than a mawashi to the ring and I haven't seen even one back covered in acne, I would suggest the evidence, as it stands, is against steroid use. As every teenager knows it is almost impossible to get rid of pimples once you've got them. And while steroid cycles are used to help heal injuries, if used incorrectly they can make injuries more likely, not less. Gaining too much extra muscle mass in a short period of time doesn't allow your body to compensate for the change, and makes it more likely, not less, that you will tear muscles, damage other body parts like ligaments and tendons, and in worse case scenarios, tear muscle clean off of bone. To use steroids correctly to heal you need really good medical advice. That would suggest that rikishi would be using steroids in an organised, medically supported way, in order to gain the benefit from their use. That kind of thing leaves an evidence trail which again, we haven't seen. I suspect that much of that increased body mass comes from the massive amounts of beer these guys drink and the food they eat. Try having a six pack of beer a night for a month, combined with a chanko diet and see what kind of weight you put on. Because I have all these historical pictures of really fat rikishi from a hundred years ago, long before steroids were invented and I'm wondering how they managed to do it. When someone can provide me with some EVIDENCE of steroid or other drug use, other than, "oh he's suddenly winning" then I'll believe it. Until then you're just making stuff up.

And I think you're right. But... Even if HF had thoughts on the matter of moving up, I just don't think he's got the body for it. I honestly think it'll be between Baruto and Kise, giving the former the immediate nod, The problem for any of them wanting to move up is that they have to Yusho twice which I can't see happening while Hak is in the mix. He's simply that much better than all the rest. He'll have to get injured before anyone else gets a chance at two Yushos in a row. If that were to happen, out of the six current Ozeki it's hard to know who would be most likely as they all have weaknesses. Discounting Osh and Kak for now (for obvious reasons) the other four all have a chink in their armour. Both Bart and Giku are too one dimensional and not adaptable enough. Bart relies too much on his size, and Giku on the bumpty-bump. Anyone who knows how to target their weaknesses can get to them. HF and Kise have the skills but both also have mental weknesses. HF can't string two good bashos together (and needs to be a bit bigger), while Kise chokes under pressure. If I had to pick one of the current Ozeki I'd bet Kise, because I think he is the one who seems to be gradually improving while the rest are static. But, I'd bet the next Yokozuna comes from outside the current crop of Ozeki - either Myogiryu or one of the younger up and comers

Hakuho consistently amazes me. No-one else would have survived that start against Goeido. Only Hakuho could go nine straight wins and be described as looking shaky :-). It's not that everybody else is bad he is just so much better than the rest

Thankyou very much. Kyokutenho is aiming at a worst ever post-Yusho performance at the moment. Every other rikishi on that list had won at least two by day nine. Poor guy

When was the last time a guy got the yusho one basho then lost the first nine straight the next?

Baruto is most dominant when he can use his height to reach over his opponent's shoulders and grab the mawashi. That's how he gets most of his lift and carry wins. Every time I see him reach over and grab I think, "That's it all over". It's Baruto's go-to option, just like Giku's is the bumpety-bump. Osh is simply too tall for him to do it effectively, so he has to come up with something else, which he struggles to do.

The long term stagnation things seems right to me. I'd be interested to know how much of the loss in Japanese interest has been made up by foreign tourists attending bashos. The audience that attends bashos would once have been 100% Japanese. Now a significant percentage of the audience is made up of foreign tourists. Basically I'm wondering if a loss in local interest has been countered by tourist attendance in the past 15 or so years? Sumo is sold as part of the package to western tourists and has this disguised a greater fall in Japanese interest than has been recognised?

Likewise, I thought Kise twisted at the last moment and Kak's arm hit the ground first.

I never said that I wanted foreign rikishi out, nor that I wanted Japanese rikishi to be favoured over foreign born. What I said was that one (or more) Japanese rikishi at the top of the sport would be good for it. I would like them to get there fair and square - that's why I suggested that a gachinko rikishi like Kise would be good for sumo. And it isn't just about the number of spectators for the sport within Japan, it is also about the demographic. The majority of the (Japanese) audience are elderly. The couple of times I've been to a basho the audience has been made up of older Japanese and younger foreign tourists. Sumo needs to attract younger Japanese to its audience. It seems to me that a strong Japanese Yokozuna may be able to do that. Finally, my original point stands. Sumo is a Japanese sport and whether we foreigners might like to spend our time poring over the results, the reality is that it lives and dies based on Japanese support. It needs people in Japan to support it far more than it does foreigners who follow it on the internet. Strong Japanese rikishi can only help that local support.

Staying with theme of what is good for sumo, I couldn't think of a better combo than two Japanese Yokozunas (say for example, Kise and Giku), in a long running rivalry of who is better. It doesn't need to black hat / white hat, just two guys in a contest of who is better, spurring each other on to greater performances.

I've been lurking on this forum for a couple of years but signed up to reply to this comment. It seems to me the best thing that could possibly happen to sumo is to have Kise (or Giku) yusho this basho, then the next one, and make Yokozuna. Sumo is intrinsically Japanese and without support in Japan, from Japanese people, it is dead in the water. More than anything else it needs strong, Japanese rikishi to be successful at the top of the sport. In the wake of the yaocho scandal to have those rikishi be known gachinko guys like Kise is even more important to sumo's survival. I absolutely want Kise to win this basho, not because I like him (even though I do), but because I want sumo to survive, be successful and thrive. To do that it needs support from a Japanese audience and the best way to get that, is to have successful and popular, Japanese rikishi. It has been over ten years since there has been a Japanese Yokozuna and the popularity of sumo in Japan has plummeted in that time. That's why a Kise win would be fantastic for sumo. It might help it still be here in ten years.