Hananotaka

The primary difference here being that there's an argument to be had whether Asa was ikitai or shinitai. I disagree with you on that, but there is a debate to be had. There's no debate on whether the Asa and Koto were dotai - they clearly were not, and so a dotai torinaoshi is the epitome of strangeness. All this talk about gyoji's raising their gumbai and unusual situations is just hand waving, completely tangential to the issue. I made this comparison years ago, but imagine a person new to baseball watching a baseball game. And they've had the rules explained to them: if the ball passes over the plate at point from the batter's knees to the letters of his jersey, that's a strike. But then they watch the actual game, and that's not the way it is at all! Pitches off to the side of the plate are getting called strikes! Pitches below the letters but above the belt being called balls! Not to mention that every umpire's strike zone is different! Compared to the Major League strike zone, I think shinitai is pretty consistent and predictable, although of course it's not as explicitly spelled out (and then ignored). As you watch sumo, you get a pretty good idea of when a rikishi is shinitai, and the refs and judges, having sumo in their bones know when a rikishi is beyond the point of no return. Sure, there are a few judgment calls, and once in a while everyone involved will kick it, just as any kind of endeavor. Beyond the strike zone, Major League umpires a few times a year utterly fail in the far, far simpler judgements of safe/out and foul/fair, and this is generally considered "just part of the game". But I think the shinitai rules are necessary in the case of kabaite, for safety reasons. And as they are applied to other situations (which is rare), I personally like the idea of the rikishi who has actually defeated his opponent, applied technique and rendered his opponent incapable of making any kind of technique or righting himself, winning the match, even if in the course of defeating his opponent he touched the ground a split second earlier. The match that initiated this thread being a perfect example.

Paolo, This isn't a sport, this is sumo. The gyoji raising his gumbai doesn't stop the bout, making everything afterwards immaterial. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to tell you, but that's the way it is. And that's the way it was here. That the gyoji raised his gumbai before Asa touched down was not part of the discussion at all. The only questions were "Asashoryu - ikitai or shinitai? Kotonowaka - tsukite or kabaite?". The gyoji are supposed to raise their gumbai when they feel the match is decided. If they're wrong, that's what the shimpan are there for. Here's a slow motion view. The gyoji raises his gumbai as Kotonowaka touches the ground, clearly before Asa touches.

You disagree with the video, which clearly shows the gyoji pointing to Kotonowaka's side before Asashoryu hits the ground, or you disagree with the gyoji's own words on the matter? Like or not the gyoji has publicly said that he raised the gumbai toward Kotonowaka because he felt Asa was shinitai. All right, now the discussion has gotten ridiculous. What happens after the gyoji's decision is NOT immaterial. That's something you just made up. It certainly has no basis in how sumo is done. It's a very clear, very simple sequence of events. 1. Kotonowaka does a uwate-nage. 2. Asashoryu is flipped on his back. 3. Kotonowaka touches the ground. 4. Asashoryu touches the ground. This was the discussion the judges had. If Asa is shinitai in 2, Kotonowaka wins. If Asa is ikitai in 2, Asashoryu wins. Time and existence doesn't stop because the gyoji raises his gumbai - the rikishi are still in motion. The issue has never been "stuff happened after the gyoji raised his gumbai, so we have to call a torinaoshi". The question that the judges discussed on the dohyo for 3 minutes was "Was Kotonowaka's hand touching down tsuki-te or kabai-te?" They could not come to a decision, so they declared a "dotai" and a torinaoshi, even though this was obvious to anyone watching that it was not a dotai. I gather you liked this resolution, and hey, that's fine for you. But this was an abdication of responsibility on the part of the judges. A dotai - torinaoshi should be just that: a torinaoshi because the rikishi were dotai. Not a recourse when the judges can't come to a decision　about shinitai/ikitai or tsuki-te/kabai-te.

Well, they are. Ikitai/Shinitai may be a judgment call, but in terms of the sequence of the bout, doutai should not have been ruled. It was a miscall. He did. Watch the video. He starts to point to Kotonowaka before Kotonowaka touches down, and long before Asashoryu touches down. I'm afraid your opinion is mistaken. The gyoji is on record as pointing to Kotonowaka because he believed Asa was shinitai. And this is what was wrong. A torinaoshi is NOT supposed to be called when there's no agreement. A torinaoshi is called when there's a decision of "doutai" - both falling at the same time. Because Kotonowaka clearly touched before Asashoryu, there can be no doutai. Either Asa was ikitai and Koto lost, or Asa was shinitai and Koto won. No movies, unfortunately. The vast, vast majority of sumo done even since Dale started recording the movies in 2000 is not available on the internet, even from what is available on film. The question of shinitai is one that can be debated. That's a judgment call. But the sequence of events are quite clear, and the rules regarding torinaoshi are clear. Kotonowaka touched first, so there can be no doutai, and thus should have been no torinaoshi.

Indeed it's always worth remembering that Chiyotaikai became an Ozeki by defeating Wakanohana III via yotsu...twice.

I dunno, I'm no better at guessing future Yokozuna/Ozeki than anyone else, and I sucked at Bench Sumo. (Neener, neener...) Most of what I know about sumo technique comes from reading the excellent match descriptions posted by inestimable Tsubota Atsuo-san on the Japanese Sumo ML. But, in a sense I have made a long study about this, in that I've followed Wakanosato his entire career. Now here's a rikishi as physically strong as any in makuuchi, and extremely technically sound, as well, comfortable in any yotsumi, and able dish out and handle tsuppari as well. Why didn't he make Ozeki? The key, I believe, is all in tachiai. And it makes sense. To be Ozeki/Yokozuna, you have to win a lot. Any veteran sumo fan or sumo wrestler will tell you, most matches are decided at the tachiai. It's importance can't be underestimated. On the strength and technical side, there's not a whole lotta difference between Juryo and Makuuchi, and even less between the low ranks of Makuuchi and the joi-jin. What is different is the tachiai. It's a common refrain among shin-nyumakus, especially those that don't make the cut. "What was your impression of Makuuchi?" "The tachiai was so powerful!" And it's echoed when new guys first get up to the joi-jin. In Japanese there are two things to look for: fumikomi and fumbari. Fumikomi means "stepping in". "Fumbari" basically refers to "standing one's ground". The key to tachiai is who controls the space between the shikiri lines. Both will try to step in (fumikomi), but the one who holds his ground (fumibari) will win the tachiai, and more often than not, the match. This is something you can watch for at the lower levels. If a rikishi is consistently controlling the space between the shikiri lines at tachiai, he's going to be moving up. Wakanosato's problem has always been a very "receiving" tachiai. Particularly in his early days, he had a tendency to concede the center to his opponent, holding his ground and trusting to his great strength. But the problem with that is that not only does it put you at a disadvantage in any individual match, but it also saps your stamina over the long hall. In sumo, momentum is your friend. It takes much more power and energy to stop the other guy from moving forward, and then start moving forward yourself, than it does to move forward powerfully from the get-go, and deny the other guy the chance to even get any momentum going. This made Dejima's career. Despite his small size and stubby arms, he made it to Ozeki based on his ability to run over the opponent at tachiai. As his legs went, so did his ability to stay at the heights. This is also why henka can be so frustrating -- by doing henka too much a rikishi can get gunshy, and lose the ability to both take a hard tachiai (fumbari) and dish one out (fumikomi). This ability to control the center lines separates Juryo from Makuuchi. But what separates the joi-jin men from the elevator boys is the ability to develop their attack while controlling the tachai. This is Homasho's problem. Homasho can, in fact, win a tachiai at times. But he's very slow at developing his attack. The guys who stay in the joi-jin can develop their attack as they move foward at the tachai. The guys who reach Ozeki can do this consistently, against any opponent. This goes back to what others were saying about "doing your own sumo". Ozeki and Yokozuna do their sumo against everybody, even when they lose. And while I may be wrong, it seems to me that I never hear Ozeki and Yokozuna repeat the "do my own sumo" mantra. They almost always do it. I think for many, the clearest sign for Hakuho was when he was not getting flustered versus Asa, even when he lost the tachiai. Win or lose the tachiai, he was developing his attack and putting himself in position very quickly. So, broadly, watch how they do at tachiai. For yotsu-rikishi, watch their hands. Are they getting a sashi or grip right off the bat? Are they pushing their opponent back as they reach for it? Are they doing it consistently? Against higher ranked rikishi? These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. I'll add more if anything comes to me.

I'm with Jakusotsu on this. I'd rather not have another 185+ cm rikishi jumping around the dohyo and pulling down rikishi smaller than him, with piss-poor dohyo demeanor to boot. It may be legal, it may be "sumo", but it sure as hell ain't Ozumo. I have nothing against the Russians -- all things considered I'd love for them to do well while doing fantastic exciting sumo. But to a man their sumo, particularly considering their size and strength, leaves a lot to be desired. Man, I miss the Hawaiians. Their sumo may not have been technically subtle, but they never made me wish for the time I spent watching their "sumo" back. So, I hope eventually there's Russian rikishi that will be an exception to the current rule. In the interest of fairness, there are a lot of crappy Japanese rikishi filling the Makuuchi ranks, too, and all things considered I wish a Japanese rikishi would come up and break the mold. About the only folks on the dohyo these days doing decent sumo are the Mongolians.

This will never happen. It is never inappropriate for an Ozeki to hold a prominent record. Yokozuna themselves are simply considered Super-Ozeki, in as much as no Yokozuna are necessary for a basho, but there must be two Ozeki, and if there are less than two Ozeki and there's at least one Yokozuna, that Yokozuna becomes a "Yokozuna-Ozeki".

Disagree on whether Asashoryu was ikitai or shinitai if you like, but the rules are quite clear and there's no way this was not a bad decision. If Asa is ikitai, as you suppose, Kotonowaka touched first and is the clear loser. If Asa is shinitai, as I believe (that he didn't immediately fall down is irrelevant; when you can not right yourself under your own power and all you can do is hold on and let your weight pull your opponent down, you're shinitai, and you've already lost), then Kotonowaka wins. There was no need for a torinaoshi, even if it was something the judges never saw before.

Um...no. Traditionally, there was no special gesture or ritual for taking prizes - particularly in the days before the kensho system we have now was put into place! The tradition of the action (tegatana wo kiru, "cutting with the hand-sword") was begun by a pre-war Ozeki named Nayoroiwa. He felt that simply taking the money lacked a certain class, so he began using the tegatana to make the character "kokoro", meaning "heart", which looks like this: 心 He would do the three dots left to right, and then take the money with the bottom sweeping stroke. (This, incidentally, is not considered the correct way to write the character.) This action was soon copied by other rikishi, and the tradition was born. After the war, when Futabayama had become Tokitsukaze Rijicho, he felt that the way rikishi were doing it was sloppy, so he said it should be done center - left - right, and that it was a gesture of thanks to the three gods Ame-no-minakanushi, Takami-musubi, and Kami-musubi. There was never any rule about it being done with the right hand, and many left-handed rikishi did (do?) it with their left hand, until left-handed Asashoryu became Yokozuna. Makiko Uchidate saw that he was using his left-hand and felt that it should be done with the right (as things are in most traditional Japanese rituals), so she raised a hue and cry.

Regarding the most recent bout in question: the rikishi in Tochinonada's position will win this bout 9 times out of 10. He did not fall down because of a move initiated by Asashoryu, he fell down because he was pushing Asa out. At the time he touched down, as others have mentioned, Asa was airborn, half out of the dohyo, not even touching Tochinonada, and clearly unable to save himself. A clear loss. Any mono-ii would only be for kakunin (confirmation). Regarding Asa-Hakuho failed utchari: IIRC, the slow motion replay showed that Asa lost his footing before Asa was sent out of the ring. For an utchari to be successful, he has to be in control when the other guy goes out. He can fall down because of the momentum of the throw, being pulled along by his opponent, but he can't himself lose his footing before the guy is clearly out. If you watch the bout again, you'll see that Asa went out as a result of Hakuho tipping over, rather than Hakuho tipping over as a result of Asa going out. Regarding Asa-Kotonowaka: This was a colossal judging cock-up. There's basically two ways to look at it: Asashoryu was shinitai, Kotonowaka's hand was kabaite, Kotonowaka wins. Or, Asashoryu was ikitai, Kotonowaka's hand was tsukite, Asashoryu wins. I personally think the latter is ridiculous, but if one wants to argue that Asa was not shinitai, then there's no way that can be called a "dotai" and have a torinaoshi.

Anyone want to go in with me on some Day 9 (the 21st) B-masu seki tickets?

Also, Atsuta Jingu is not especially big and wide. Once they cordon off the area where the dohyo-iri takes place, I can't imagine they'll be much room to view it.

I'm not planning on going to Nagoya, but then I don't really have to, since I live here. (Being thrown tomatoes at...) I would say pretty early, especially on a weekend. Three years ago I was able to buy a tamari seki ticket at the walk-up window around 10 o'clock. Last year I tried and it was no-go -- nothing was available. Kotomitsuki's ozeki run has really revitalized the Nagoya sumo scene.

Dude, that's a hell of a bomb to drop in a family forum...

Interesting. I wonder if it took the extra glaring to get them psyched up enough that they could go full speed against a close friend. Nah. Nami and Maru hold the record for the most matches of any two rikishi, and 98% of them went off without any kind of niramiai. I think this was a rare instance where it was just the two of them, friendly rivals, the spotlight fully on them for all the marbles, and they simply got into sync. I don't know that it is. Kitazakura is certainly doing a lot of salt throwing, niramiai, and jikan-mae. If anything, I imagine there's an ebb and flow.

For me, my favorite niramiai was Ozeki Musashimaru vs. Ozeki Takanonami on Senshuraku, Haru Basho 1999. New Ozeki Chiyotaikai was gone with a broken nose, and amazingly, the three Yokozuna followed in short order (I think Wakanohana was actually kyujo before the start of the basho). Ultimately, it fell on these two rikishi to prop up the basho, and they did, neither losing once they became co-leaders. And then, on musubi-no-ichiban on Senshuraku, they gave a magnificent niramiai, really exciting the crowd. It was the greater in retrospect after learning that Takanonami and Maru actually got on really well, to the point that Takanonami openly wept when Maru retired.

The slap was not deliberate. When Asa came in with the extra shove his hands slid off Hakuho, who stepped in and pushed Asa back with his shoulder. Asa's hand coming in contact with Hakuho's face was incidental. I find myself in agreement with Asashosakari. I think the incident as a whole was terrible. Staredowns are supposed to happen before the match. But still, I was getting tired of Asa's dame-oshi's. Obviously warnings and suggestions had absolutely no effect. Perhaps this incident (and the resulting hubbub) will instigate a change. You don't like the other guy being a Yokozuna, though. There's a big difference, incidentally, between the final push off the dohyo, like Akebono (and other oshi-zumo rikishi) have done, and Asa's tendency to push/kick guys on the ground.

I'm with you, Joe. I don't necessarily agree with all she says, and I'm certainly no fan of the YDC as a whole, but I do think she gets waaaay too much flak here for just fulfilling her responsibilities.

So is she implying that discussing yokozuna promotions is ALL they do ? No, but it's the primary purpose of the council, the reason it was formed.

"But, next basho get even more on the ball and do your best." "There are only a few matches left, but win even just once more to lead into the next basho!" "Are you participating in the senshuuraku wrap party? 千秋楽打ち上げパーティーに参加しませんか？" "Won't you participate in the Senshuraku wrap party?" It's an invitation. "Do even more intense keiko." This is もっと twice for emphasis, not もっとも.

I mentioned this in the Asa-sumo-worthy thread, but a Yokozuna's basic responsibility is to win. Makekoshi (and to a certain extent this includes kyujo) is an abject failure, a 15-0 yusho is the maximum. Everything from 8-7 to 14-1 success with varying degrees of blemish. At 14-1, 13-2, you over look the blemishes (especially if it's a yusho, and the losses came against Yokozuna/Ozeki). 12-3 is considered a weak yusho, and if there's no yusho, it's the bottom line of acceptable. 11-4, 10-5, these are like getting a C grade in a class. Sure, technically it's supposed to be a perfectly acceptable, but in actuality no one's satisfied with it. 9-6, 8-7, these are like a D grade. Yeah, it's a passing grade, but it also signals panic time.

IMO, Asa's numbers as a Yokozuna are unimpeachable. That he did it as a lone Yokozuna is not a mark against him -- he was dominant enough to shut the door on further Yokozuna promotions for most of his career to date. That's to his credit. Asa's sumo, from the point of view of sumo aesthetics, was very good for much of his Yokozuna career, but took a turn for the worse around 2006, most likely from a scaling back in his training. His sumo through 2007 in particular was very messy, not high level technically, and had very frenetic, harried sense to it. Still, he won, to be sure. Let it not be thought I'm making some kind of character judgment here. The Yokozuna's most basic responsibility is to win. Then it is to win with the best kind of sumo -- strong, technically sound, and forward moving. This is where sumo goes beyond sports, because the goal is not to just to win, but to win with perfection. It's an impossible ideal, but striving for that impossible ideal is the job of the Yokozuna. Thus, Futabayama's "wooden rooster". Asa cleared the first hurdle, and fell short of the loftier expectations. It's not really a problem. Caring about such things and talking about them is simply what separates the sumo fan from the casual sumo watcher. Asa's sumo this basho was, when he was winning, very good. Of course, the losses were not good. 11-4 is not the end of the world, but again, the goal of a Yokozuna is not "an okay record". It's a 15-0 zensho with perfect, dominating (perhaps to some "boring") sumo. In that department both Yokozuna came up short, and they'll both try to improve on that next basho. The final match was very bad, but I'll address that it the other thread. I do wish people would not make things so personal. It's just sumo.

You're American? How would you feel if an American rikishi sung Kimigayo? I don't know about Peterao, but I personally would feel nothing at all. It's not a pledge of allegiance, it's just a song.

9 years at Ozeki will be considered only in Chiyotaikai's favor if he wants to open up his own stable. Stable's have been opened up by short-term sekiwake and komusubi, after all. In any case, it's quite likely Chiyotaikai will eventually get the Kokonoe myoseki and inherit the stable. I have never read about such a rule ever since. I suppose it's possible that Mr. Coller heard some rules of thumb about what some YDC members consider worthy of promotion. Certainly, there's a perception that a 12-3 yusho is a "weak" yusho. But the only rule in the YDC bylines is two consecutive yusho (or equivalent performance) at Ozeki. Next basho will 100% be a tsuna-tori basho for Oushuu.