themistyseas

Extreme speculation but is there precedent for anything like this (removal from duty) happening after a shimpan judgment error? Just curious, those types of incidents are pretty rare.

I'm not a massive fan of him either, but might be worth slowing down to take a breather here. Takakeisho can probably have a bit of a bone to pick with it, but I'm not sure he had "multiple superior performances" off the numbers alone. His D-Y was a less impressive 12-3 D 12-3 Y, and he had one equivalent 12-3 J 13-2 Y, but even that had a fusen-sho thrown in (not his fault), and a two way playoff (again, not his fault), so the argument can be made Hoshoryu actually won two more matches over the same period. I don't really love Hoshoryu's dohyo behaviour but there is at least historical precedent and it's also coming crucially at a time of no-Yokozuna (and where we've even recently seen the Yokozuna-Ozeki deployed due to lack of top rankers). So there was always more likelihood of a soft promotion happening now. It is indeed soft though, since there hasn't been a promotion this weak since the late 80s (Onokuni and Hokutoumi). It's fair to ask whether it would be poor from Hakkaku not to have asked the YDC to deliberate, given that he himself was promoted with similar results and with a (dominant) Yokozuna already in situ. But equally, statistically, Hoshoryu's Ozeki performance is right up there along with most previous Yokozuna's Ozeki tenures (better than Harumafuji and Kakuryu, even if the promotion platform was worse, and worse than Kisenosato - all of whom faced admittedly stronger opposition), and his win rate at the level is 7% higher than Takakeisho (which is admittedly a bit skewed by the latter's injury-plagued downfall). There can't really be any perfect comparisons across eras but clearly he will still have plenty to prove.

Very curious who the second attendant will be for the dohyo-iri. The first one obviously will be Meisei, but the stable doesn't have any others in the top division (and probably won't anytime soon). Surprisingly, the raft of retirements means there actually aren't many candidates in the huge ichimon: Hiradoumi seems a good candidate to me just based on his more or less consistent placement in the top half of the division, or Kinbozan in recognition of the fact he pushed him hardest to win the yusho and gain promotion? Gonoyama would be a hilarious pick given the niramiai from Hoshoryu down the last couple years (although I believe the two have a connection from their amateur days?) Ura is beloved by all although as a figure of fun, might not be the guy you want when you're looking serious doing a dohyo-iri? Sadanoumi, Churanoumi, Roga, Shishi seem unlikely due to their placement at the low end of the division, and it's hard to envision Mitakeumi doing that. Am I forgetting anyone?

"It was Rebekah Vardy's phone" I love the Wagatha Christie approach to this! Also imagine if NHK put as much effort into publishing the full top division results in a timely manner as they did to IP enforcement... they wouldn't have nearly the IP enforcement to do.

Curious - from this or the press conference, any news where that might be - ie within Tokyo or back in Hokkaido? Big fan of Kyokutaisei and abura-soba!

Somewhat OT but I laughed (too) hard at this. Maybe I'm the only one here getting thrown when folks save a handful of letters... I get we can infer who's being talked about from context but when I see "Kise" I think "Kise beya" but on this forum it's used almost exclusively referencing Kisenosato. Seems equally strange to be referring to Kotozakura here as "Koto" when that's the prefix of literally an entire heya (and a Tokyo ward housing much sumo history) and a bit like referring to Terunofuji as "Fuji"... but maybe I'm in a minority of one here. But Yoko Ono might be the exception that makes the rule and the true acceptable use case, not only that but it's fully Kintamayaman in nature. Though of course, we've already had a Yoko Bono and I'm not sure I'd want to hear that... ;)

I can't remember if I posted this before but one idea to lessen the foreigner restriction while also preserving the reason why it came into place might be a diversity requirement If the reason the current rule came into being was because you had stables with clusters of Mongolian, Samoan, American (Hawaiian), Filipino people who hung out together and spoke the same language without fully assimilating, then the solve would be ensuring any additional foreign recruit cannot come from the same country as the first foreign recruit (or, in a world where up to three foreign recruits were allowed, having two from the same country means you lose the chance to bring in a third, etc). Obviously the whole thing is somewhat discriminatory but if sumo truly is supportive of foreigners who come into the sport and fully assimilate and commit to the values and traditions of the culture, then there shouldn't be any problem having a stable that has a Ukrainian rikishi and a Chinese rikishi, or an American rikishi and a Mongolian rikishi together in the same heya. We already see this plenty when there are heya mergers (e.g. Aoiyama into Kasugano beya).

It's important to remember though that the real world is more complicated. If someone who is borrowing finds out or is told (or knew from the beginning) that the share is ticketed for e.g. Terunofuji or a 38 year old who can retire at any moment, and they need to seek alternative employment, then it's a bit unreasonable for that new employer or business venture to continue to postpone the hire repeatedly every two months in the event that the holder of their borrowed share doesn't retire. It's understandable that in a situation where the loanee can start their second career *now* that they would have to take that in lieu of trying to hang on another two months. Often in a situation like this where the name hasn't been re-loaned, the incoming holder is already making intai plans as we've seen consistently in recent years (Kisenosato had loaned Araiso out for many years, but then it sat vacant for nine months before his actual retirement). Since many of these guys have families, if they're not going to be able to keep jumping onto a different name, they probably have to be looking for new work. We've also seen several surprise departures of loanees who we might have expected to secure a share (e.g. Toyonoshima), only for them to announce a career change when it was clear they didn't or wouldn't, even if they could have continued to borrow for a while. In a lot of ways it almost seems like for those who will never be long-term elders, the loan system at least allows a few guys a soft landing after they retire (especially if it's unexpected, ie for a guy dropping from the salaried ranks who doesn't live in the heya and won't make it back to Juryo), so that they can eventually find new work after the danpatsushiki. We're all just speculating as hobbyists but it's real life for these guys.

So who's gonna ask the important question here... where do these guys go to get their hair done!? :)

That was kind of my point. We can't look at his behaviour in and around official sumo related interviews and apply it towards the type of oyakata he will be because history has shown that there is not always a whole lot of correlation. But it's also fair to look at the guy now - or any of us at a certain age - and say that he may well develop a whole new set of skills after his active sumo retirement, now that he's got the ability to pursue broader interests. I'm really looking forward to what his next role might be, and I do really think it would be a shrewd move to take someone with his sumo background out of just doing variety shows and into an environment where he can help the kyokai's various channels as a popular figure who will be much better known to a younger generation. But who knows if that's something they feel is right for him now.

I feel like there have been other notable oyakata in recent years (and doubtlessly in the generations before) who maybe wouldn't have been tagged as being excellent communicators - Kisenosato being a prime example - but who blossomed in terms of their oratory abilities once they hung up the mawashi. The other thing that shouldn't be ruled out especially based on the paths taken by other recent oyakata is that at his age, he could well start taking a university course before inheriting or branching out to run his own heya, and that may well also give him greater experience in communicating his ideas. It will be fascinating to see what kind of role he will be given within the kyokai. He seems like someone who would benefit the kyokai immensely by taking on a fan-facing or social media role, but as stated, that may not suited for him right now...

I thought this was particularly interesting, I've made the journey there from Fukuoka and it's not especially close. He probably won't have so many rikishi in the beginning for this year's basho anyway but I'm curious how they plan on making their trips in each day (by car/bus? Seems a bit difficult to get the train to Hakata and then trek up to the arena). It is a lovely little town.

This is entirely baseless speculation, but I wonder also if someone like Kisenosato might be beavering away in the background to try and secure one for Takayasu, in which case could we see Kotoyuki take over Oguruma with the Araiso name reverting to the Nishonoseki family for the former Ozeki's later use (which could still go to someone like Kotoeko on loan)? Seems like stranger things have happened.

The fans I interact with are indeed longtime fans. Most them on the older side. Japanese, and have been watching sumo for decades. Their main complaint about Hakuho is, not surprisingly, his past behavior on the dohyo. That is to say, his lack of "hinkaku" as a Yokozuna. I'm sure the most recent development as Oyakata has only further solidified their view. I work in another entertainment sector (very frequently in the country), and almost everyone folks in the general population that I encounter has at most a vaguely passing knowledge of sumo. They know about scandals (maybe) when they happen, but most people are like "wow, you like sumo? Who's your favourite? Hakuho is the best! He's amazing." It feels to me there's also a stark (!) contrast between people in the country with regards to their feelings on Hakuho - but also with regard to scandal. I do wonder whether with respect to the older, long time ultra fans, some in the Kyokai will understand that these folks have seen scandal come and go, frequently, over the years. These folks will have their opinions but aren't going to stop supporting the folks in the ecosystem who they support (ie, die hard super fans will always be die hard super fans, even if they view someone or someones to be unfavourable). But with that being said, the mood music of the general public may not be something that management wants to play with, it seems like they want to present the view that things are under control while preserving the presence of someone who still has the capacity to put butts in seats? I know there are other folks here who want to read something into the PR statement that maybe isn't there, but I feel like there's little point as things stand now not to take Sadogatake at face value if he states that they want him to be rehabilitated as a leader and come back stronger. They have a lot to gain by that being truthful, even if certain stakeholders might have alternate motivations for how they arrive at that point.

Worth pointing out in the context of both comments that Isegahama himself is only going to be around as shisho for another 14 months, so it surely it won't be much longer - if it's even that long - than that? Feels like the best case scenario for Hakuho. Some folks have mentioned the real estate investment in his new heya building in Nihombashi having stuttered. Feels like this would be the ideal time to get the building work done, although I know it's a big bet to invest in a project which may or may not yet come to fruition.