themistyseas

I can't remember if I posted this before but one idea to lessen the foreigner restriction while also preserving the reason why it came into place might be a diversity requirement If the reason the current rule came into being was because you had stables with clusters of Mongolian, Samoan, American (Hawaiian), Filipino people who hung out together and spoke the same language without fully assimilating, then the solve would be ensuring any additional foreign recruit cannot come from the same country as the first foreign recruit (or, in a world where up to three foreign recruits were allowed, having two from the same country means you lose the chance to bring in a third, etc). Obviously the whole thing is somewhat discriminatory but if sumo truly is supportive of foreigners who come into the sport and fully assimilate and commit to the values and traditions of the culture, then there shouldn't be any problem having a stable that has a Ukrainian rikishi and a Chinese rikishi, or an American rikishi and a Mongolian rikishi together in the same heya. We already see this plenty when there are heya mergers (e.g. Aoiyama into Kasugano beya).

It's important to remember though that the real world is more complicated. If someone who is borrowing finds out or is told (or knew from the beginning) that the share is ticketed for e.g. Terunofuji or a 38 year old who can retire at any moment, and they need to seek alternative employment, then it's a bit unreasonable for that new employer or business venture to continue to postpone the hire repeatedly every two months in the event that the holder of their borrowed share doesn't retire. It's understandable that in a situation where the loanee can start their second career *now* that they would have to take that in lieu of trying to hang on another two months. Often in a situation like this where the name hasn't been re-loaned, the incoming holder is already making intai plans as we've seen consistently in recent years (Kisenosato had loaned Araiso out for many years, but then it sat vacant for nine months before his actual retirement). Since many of these guys have families, if they're not going to be able to keep jumping onto a different name, they probably have to be looking for new work. We've also seen several surprise departures of loanees who we might have expected to secure a share (e.g. Toyonoshima), only for them to announce a career change when it was clear they didn't or wouldn't, even if they could have continued to borrow for a while. In a lot of ways it almost seems like for those who will never be long-term elders, the loan system at least allows a few guys a soft landing after they retire (especially if it's unexpected, ie for a guy dropping from the salaried ranks who doesn't live in the heya and won't make it back to Juryo), so that they can eventually find new work after the danpatsushiki. We're all just speculating as hobbyists but it's real life for these guys.

So who's gonna ask the important question here... where do these guys go to get their hair done!? :)

That was kind of my point. We can't look at his behaviour in and around official sumo related interviews and apply it towards the type of oyakata he will be because history has shown that there is not always a whole lot of correlation. But it's also fair to look at the guy now - or any of us at a certain age - and say that he may well develop a whole new set of skills after his active sumo retirement, now that he's got the ability to pursue broader interests. I'm really looking forward to what his next role might be, and I do really think it would be a shrewd move to take someone with his sumo background out of just doing variety shows and into an environment where he can help the kyokai's various channels as a popular figure who will be much better known to a younger generation. But who knows if that's something they feel is right for him now.

I feel like there have been other notable oyakata in recent years (and doubtlessly in the generations before) who maybe wouldn't have been tagged as being excellent communicators - Kisenosato being a prime example - but who blossomed in terms of their oratory abilities once they hung up the mawashi. The other thing that shouldn't be ruled out especially based on the paths taken by other recent oyakata is that at his age, he could well start taking a university course before inheriting or branching out to run his own heya, and that may well also give him greater experience in communicating his ideas. It will be fascinating to see what kind of role he will be given within the kyokai. He seems like someone who would benefit the kyokai immensely by taking on a fan-facing or social media role, but as stated, that may not suited for him right now...

I thought this was particularly interesting, I've made the journey there from Fukuoka and it's not especially close. He probably won't have so many rikishi in the beginning for this year's basho anyway but I'm curious how they plan on making their trips in each day (by car/bus? Seems a bit difficult to get the train to Hakata and then trek up to the arena). It is a lovely little town.

This is entirely baseless speculation, but I wonder also if someone like Kisenosato might be beavering away in the background to try and secure one for Takayasu, in which case could we see Kotoyuki take over Oguruma with the Araiso name reverting to the Nishonoseki family for the former Ozeki's later use (which could still go to someone like Kotoeko on loan)? Seems like stranger things have happened.

The fans I interact with are indeed longtime fans. Most them on the older side. Japanese, and have been watching sumo for decades. Their main complaint about Hakuho is, not surprisingly, his past behavior on the dohyo. That is to say, his lack of "hinkaku" as a Yokozuna. I'm sure the most recent development as Oyakata has only further solidified their view. I work in another entertainment sector (very frequently in the country), and almost everyone folks in the general population that I encounter has at most a vaguely passing knowledge of sumo. They know about scandals (maybe) when they happen, but most people are like "wow, you like sumo? Who's your favourite? Hakuho is the best! He's amazing." It feels to me there's also a stark (!) contrast between people in the country with regards to their feelings on Hakuho - but also with regard to scandal. I do wonder whether with respect to the older, long time ultra fans, some in the Kyokai will understand that these folks have seen scandal come and go, frequently, over the years. These folks will have their opinions but aren't going to stop supporting the folks in the ecosystem who they support (ie, die hard super fans will always be die hard super fans, even if they view someone or someones to be unfavourable). But with that being said, the mood music of the general public may not be something that management wants to play with, it seems like they want to present the view that things are under control while preserving the presence of someone who still has the capacity to put butts in seats? I know there are other folks here who want to read something into the PR statement that maybe isn't there, but I feel like there's little point as things stand now not to take Sadogatake at face value if he states that they want him to be rehabilitated as a leader and come back stronger. They have a lot to gain by that being truthful, even if certain stakeholders might have alternate motivations for how they arrive at that point.

Worth pointing out in the context of both comments that Isegahama himself is only going to be around as shisho for another 14 months, so it surely it won't be much longer - if it's even that long - than that? Feels like the best case scenario for Hakuho. Some folks have mentioned the real estate investment in his new heya building in Nihombashi having stuttered. Feels like this would be the ideal time to get the building work done, although I know it's a big bet to invest in a project which may or may not yet come to fruition.

In light of recent developments (everyone stays on as long as possible), it'd be a little surprising. There aren't a huge number of eligible or soon-to-retire names in this ichimon, either I wonder, given the recent news of his citizenship, if the name might be ticketed for Tamawashi (or potentially Takayasu?)

It really seems like the best case scenario to me to send Hakuho over to Isegahama. Especially from the point of view of his ability to re-branch at some point in the near future. Isegahama himself only has 7 more basho after this one, at which point someone new is going to need to assume control of that heya, making it a logical break point anyway. Hakuho reporting to Isegahama makes a ton of sense in terms of him getting a year to learn at close quarters off one of the most senior figures in the Kyokai, who's also survived/thrived despite some internal issues. Hakuho reporting to Terunofuji or Takarafuji doesn't make a ton of sense. So if he's able to step back out on his own next July, it ends up being a more lenient punishment than the Kise example. And does it really stop his scouting & recruiting? "Here, come work under not under not one but two Yokozuna, in a stable that also has the only active Yokozuna." Even the innovators at Nishonoseki beya can't match that kind of pitch. Honestly I absolutely love this solution however unlikely it may be. I seem to remember he has spoken in the past about wanting to run his own heya, the chances of that at present where he's at seem quite small, and it moves an Isenoumi name back to Isegahama ichimon after the Takashima theft. Sorry for using shikona and kabu interchangeably, I'm sure that's annoying to people like using metric and imperial in the same sentence.

Clearly it isn't or shouldn't be, in the eyes of the general public and in the eyes of a Kyokai which relies on the general public.

One of the reasons I don't buy the 10 year rumour is exactly this. That's as much a problem for sumo generally as it is for the heya. I'm not sure you need a full set of fingers to be able to count shisho who are prolific recruiters. Like Kakuryu said in that recent Sumo Prime Time, it's more and more difficult to convince recruits (or parents of recruits) to join sumo already if they aren't title winners who think they will go all the way to the top. And they are probably not wrong that in the current economic situation there are probably better job prospects in other walks of life with a full education if you aren't leaving school early to do professional sumo. The punishment as announced seems rational but there's no reason to go overboard and effectively make him quit. This kind of makes me wonder, per @Akinomaki's comment on the Ishiura danpatsushiki thread, whether it may still be called Miyagino-beya as Miyagino is the owner of the heya, even if Tamagaki is temporary acting shisho? I guess we'll find out. There could be some real fun times ahead for whoever makes those sumodb kabu history edits :)

Something that has bothered me for a while is the distribution of oyakata. I don't know if it's so much the number of heya (especially while the overall number of recruits is decreasing) as much as where the names are focused. Another thing that hasn't come up here is Takashima's defection from Miyagino to Isenoumi a couple years ago. I don't know if the real reason for this ever cropped up, and maybe he just didn't want to be a part of what Hakuho was going to build, but you'd think that having a veteran presence at the heya (ie adult in the room) would help to hopefully mitigate some situations. It seems absolutely nuts that Kasugano and Isenoumi account for 10% of all elder shares between just the two heya, and Kasugano has another 3 official staffers, supporting a grand total of 31 rikishi. It feels like now that everyone can be a sanyo, a good use of the role would be using their time to support new oyakata to help them develop. I could be wrong but newer shisho who have a sanyo or very senior oyakata in the backroom team (Oshima when he was Tomozuna, Ikazuchi now with Irumagawa, Hanaregoma with Minatogawa, Oshiogawa with Oguruma, etc) seem to have had it pretty smooth sailing so far. Miyagino obviously had ex-Miyagino until Ishiura needed the share, but Takashima's departure comes into light. Should Sakaigawa be lending Sekinoto (for example) to Takekuma beya for a couple years? Would Naruto have avoided some issues if he were able to borrow someone temporarily from Sadogatake? Should Minezaki be supporting a heya that might need him a bit more than the one he's attached to? I think there's something to be said for maintaining a continuity of culture and history, but equally it seems like the lessons in management shouldn't stop when a recent retiree branches out.

Well, that aged very quickly and very poorly!