Kyokai investigates Injury problems

[Zentoryu 154]

It looks like the Kyokai is becoming really concerned about the recent injury problems. This article appeared in the Japan Times, the Kyodo news and on the SML:

Sumo association looks at ways to reduce injuries

Sunday, February 2, 2003 at 14:00 JST

TOKYO

[Hoshifransu 0]

Very interesting, thanks a lot.

I wish Musashimaru didn't retire, BTW or I wish he wasn't absent for something like a couple of years too, like another Yokozuna ...  (Devilish thought)

And the Ozeki ... especially "injury-forced" Tochiazuma ! He had good chances to become Yokozuna one year ago and now, he will really finish by going down with these injuries ... But that will be a good occasion to watch a come-back to an Ozeki rank too ... Though, very sad compensation ... And sadness in general for the fans of the Sanyaku wrestlers ... during this "crisis" !

So as it is said, they will discuss "ways to minimize injuries" and I'm really really looking forward to reading their conclusions and the consequences of next discussions !

I have personally my own idea about their possible future conclusions, but no polemic, that time, from me, just wait and see ...  (Thumbs up...)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Very interesting, thanks a lot.

I wish Musashimaru didn't retire, BTW or I wish he wasn't absent for something like a couple of years too, like another Yokozuna ...  (Devilish thought)

And the Ozeki ... especially "injury-forced" Tochiazuma ! He had good chances to become Yokozuna one year ago and now, he will really finish by going down with these injuries ... But that will be a good occasion to watch a come-back to an Ozeki rank too ...

I believe Maru will come back with a vengeance and be a real menace to the beginning of Asashoryu's yokozuna career. The fact that he got the operation was a good sign he wasn't ready to retire yet, and a wrist injury, while possibly severe, should (correct me, Mikko, if I'm wrong) under normal circumstances not give a sumo wrestler as hard a time to get back into shape as a knee injury. Apart from that, Musashimaru is still relatively healthy and has a kind of sumo which isn't especially injury-prone. Based on that, I think these months of general healing will be good for Maru, so as long as he doesn't lose his confidence in the way I think Taka did, he should soon recover a form at least as good as before injuring himself. Remember that his wrist injury was quite bad before he went absent, but that he still could beat at least the Maegashiras.

Regarding Tochiazuma I think you are way to quick too demote him to Sekiwake... I might have missed the assessment of his injuries, but I would at least see him get his consecutive make-koshi before contemplating how he will have to perform to regain his Ozeki rank...

[QttP 0]

You know what they should do to dispose of some of the injuries: Extend the outside of the dohyo by a couple of meters, so that rikishi don't fall down when they get pushed out of it! It's always painful to watch how they crash out of it.

But of course, they won't do it. They probably won't even consider it. Tradition, and all...

[Hoshifransu 0]

At the beginning of day 4 of Eurosport's late coverage, Syd Hoare talked about that recent meeting.

At first, he said about the wrestlers that "one suggestion is to change their food regime" and Syd concluding "so that's to make them less fat"

Syd added during the coverage of day 4 "Stomachs are too weak" and about something like "wrestlers with larger, huger stomachs have more difficulties to make the exercices" During the same day and the beginning of Day 5, Syd added a couple of times that the main target was : the wrestlers above 170 kilos !

During day 5, he added this : (word by word, but sorry, my english is so bad sometimes - or should I say, too often)

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

...after the training they have a huge meal, when ( right ?) before they sleep...

(...)

...some big runners (?) suggest that they should get up and have breakfast, keep it a little while and then, do their training...

Called hirune.

And step on each others' vomits? Isn't that the reason for skipping a breakfast? Hard keiko would be nauseating with a full or even half-full stomach, pause or no pause after eating. I doubt this hasn't been tried during the past centuries.

[Manekineko 200]

Hoshifransu-zeki, I think you're puting too much faith into Hoare's words. Hoare is practicly the only source I hear nag about rikishi weight *constantly*. I have no statistics to back me up (hint, hint) but are the current rikishi so much heavier then they were 5 years ago, say?

Hoare says he *hears* some oyakata say... That means when you hear it from him it's third hand information (oyakata says to someone- first hand, someone to Hoare - second, Hoare on Eurosport - third). It's hearsay basically... coloured by Hoare's own opinions on the subject. And his views are not always views of the Kyokai (he really appreciates a good henka! )

Also, Hoare has been known to utter a total blunder now and then (in Buyuzan's first basho he repeatedly claimed the man was 37 without even batting an eye), and some of his shikona translations are less than exact (Wakanoyama isn't "young mountain", "mountain of Japanese poetry" would be more exact ;) ).

So, take the things you hear on Eurosport with a slight pinch of salt...

Disclaimer: I still belive Hoare to be the best sumo-commentator on Eurosport (when I hear the things others say...), and I'll be ever grateful to him for teaching me the basics of sport through his comments, and his occasional piece of gossip.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Hoshifransu-zeki, I think you're puting too much faith into Hoare's words. Hoare is practicly the only source I hear nag about rikishi weight *constantly*. I have no statistics to back me up (hint, hint) but are the current rikishi so much heavier then they were 5 years ago, say?

Hoare says he *hears* some oyakata say... That means when you hear it from him it's third hand information (oyakata says to someone- first hand, someone to Hoare - second, Hoare on Eurosport - third). It's hearsay basically... coloured by Hoare's own opinions on the subject. And his views are not always views of the Kyokai (he really appreciates a good henka! )

Also, Hoare has been known to utter a total blunder now and then (in Buyuzan's first basho he repeatedly claimed the man was 37 without even batting an eye), and some of his shikona translations are less than exact (Wakanoyama isn't "young mountain", "mountain of Japanese poetry" would be more exact ;) ).

So, take the things you hear on Eurosport with a slight pinch of salt...

Disclaimer: I still belive Hoare to be the best sumo-commentator on Eurosport (when I hear the things others say...), and I'll be ever grateful to him for teaching me the basics of sport through his comments, and his occasional piece of gossip.

About the weight, the fact is that the average weight of the top division wrestlers have increased with 10-12 kg since 1990 or so. Even then there were giants as Konishiki and Onishiki present so I think it's safe to say that it's not only a few giants who pull up the weights. At the same time, the smallest man in Makunouchi weighs more than ever before, and I would say even quite a lot more. Rikishi ten years ago were actually taller and less heavy, as far as I can see even moreso in Juryo and Makushita. Personally I think the tendency is that while earlier many of the most compact and heavy wrestlers were found only at the absolute top, while there nowadays are more of them further down the banzuke. That should also reasonably mean that more rikishi are subject to more heavy opponents, and therefore being in more situations with increased injury risk (where I by heavy mean somone who also carries his weight rather well, so that he will give greater impact on his opponents).

I think I'll recheck my data (I haven't actually checked completely since a couple years ago), but I doubt the tendency has gone back (although it of course might have stagnated).

On the other hand I agree that Syd Hoares words can't be taken as is completely, but must be accompanied by other voices and actual statistics.

As a third note I'd like to say that I doubt enlarging the dohyo would make much difference. Without statistics backing me up, this might be completely wrong, but my feeling is that the number of injuries caused by falling on the area below the dohyo is quite a small, possibly even negligable part of all injuries. Therefore there is no specific reason to change that particular circumstance.

I also would say that although tradition is held high in sumo, history is actually, for a very long time, filled with changes of pretty much every area where a problem was found. Comparing with big sports such as football, the sumo Kyokai has actually been quite, if not very flexible. The problem regarding injuries is not that tradition shouldn't be changed, but that no one really knows what change in conditions would actually make a change in the injury problem. Therefore I think that this kind of solution, where the Kyokai starts to actively find areas to change, in cooperation with medical peronell, is a very good initiative, and probably the best thing to do in the situation. Actually, while it could have been done at an earlier stage, I think it shows that the Kyokai actually IS ready not only to talk, but to act on it.

PS.

aHA. I KNEW Buyuzan lies in his passport. I'm lucky to have learned his REAL age at last ;-)

[Hoshifransu 0]

Called hirune.

Thanx   :-0

I think you're puting too much faith into Hoare's words

You've got the right words : to hear Syd Hoare's comments, it's like reading the bible, to me.  ;-)

I have no statistics to back me up (hint, hint) but are the current rikishi so much heavier then they were 5 years ago, say?

Absolutely OK. And that's why I'm afraid some of the Kyokai thinking the average weight is too (dangerously) high want to decide the tendency must be reversed. And even as a fan of the heavy weights, I agree to recognize there could be a relation between the injuries and the average weight which increased a lot over the last years, but I don't agree to put everything on it and to make with it, the only one reason.

I still belive Hoare to be the best sumo-commentator on Eurosport

Me too. And you're right, there is a bit of anticipation from him about what could be done and as you wrote, he said "he *hears* some oyakata say..." well, in fact, I'm just afraid about the fact my fears could be confirmed soon ... So, we have to wait and see ... I jus' wish the right decisions could be taken, with no demagogy ...  (Being sneaky...)

[Hoshifransu 0]

I'd like to say that I doubt enlarging the dohyo would make much difference.

Really ? I thought Qttp-zeki was joking !  ;-)

Well, they're going crazy. Please, everybody in the Kyokai, keep the faith : don't touch to Sumo, don't touch to that traditional sport, don't change nothing ... or this could be the end of sumo ! We couldn't go backwards ...  (Exclamation)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I'd like to say that I doubt enlarging the dohyo would make much difference.

Really ? I thought Qttp-zeki was joking !  ;-)

Well, they're going crazy. Please, everybody in the Kyokai, keep the faith : don't touch to Sumo, don't touch to that traditional sport, don't change nothing ... or this could be the end of sumo ! We couldn't go backwards ...  (Exclamation)

I don't think Qttp was joking, but I suppose he'll have to answer that himself.

Anyway, I don't think it's healthy to not leave an opening for changes, because when the leadership over a sport becomes TOO little flexible, it's only a matter of time before the sport WILL die. Every problem must be taken seriously, and while there is a core of every sport that shouldn't be touched, one can't make that core include too much. Therefore every suggeastion in itself must be put under close scrutiny as to whether it would resolve the problem in question and whether it would make serious changes in the core of what is sumo.

Personally I don't think enlarging the outside of the dohyo intrudes on the core of sumo, as long as the actual circle on which the rikishi are allowed to step remains the same(in some circumstances I would agree to change that too, but currently no such need has arisen), and that the dohyo at least stays visually similar to what it has been before. The problem I do have with that solution though is that I don't think it would solve the problem, and to change something without reason seems unnecessary, at the very least because it could harbor new problems not yet discovered. For example would it mean that the shimpan would be further away from the dohyo and likely would see even worse than they do right now.

So, it's important to look at proposed solution from every angle, and then decide if it seems to make the situation better or not. If it turns out after the change, that it didn't do what was hoped, there should also be an opening to change back without further ado. Being too locked on the traditions without even considering the whole would have killed off sumo 100ds of years ago, I think. The sport has been at the verge of extinction a few times, but has lived through, partly because of making changes, accepting new circumstances and adapting accordingly. It mustn't stop now. If the Kyokai and these doctors get as far as to some suggestion for changes, they must at least be considered without just saying that tradition makes any changes impossible just BECAUSE.

[Manekineko 200]

Yubi-zeki says:

Personally I think the tendency is that while earlier many of the most compact and heavy wrestlers were found only at the absolute top, while there nowadays are more of them further down the banzuke.

I'm afraid you are right... on the ML, there were posted links to two articles about Takanohana's shin-deshi and Tamanoi-beya shin-deshi. Takanohana's deshi were the news since they were Takanohana's (obviously) but Tamanoi one was news because he's 170 kilos!!! As a shin-deshi already! And Takanohana's deshi looked a bit chubby as well. (unfortunately I deleted the links... sorry)

This is *very* worrisome, if only deshi joining the sumo are those too big for other, more popular sports: baseball, football, etc. The weight alone shouldn't be the reason to join Ozumo...   (Unhappy...)   And if you read interviews with shin-deshi, there's often the question "What'd you be in another life (ie. if you weren't a rikishi)" 90% answer "baseball player". ;-)

Of course I like watching the big guys (Musa, Kaio, etc), but only when they are able to *move* all that weight! Kaio has really no equal there, he's so agile for his size...  (Aww...)

[Hoshifransu 0]

Personally I don't think enlarging the outside of the dohyo intrudes on the core of sumo, as long as the actual circle on which the rikishi are allowed to step remains the same

Difficult to say. Are these dimensions the same since the beginning of sumo or were the outside dimensions already changed in the past ?

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

are the current rikishi so much heavier then they were 5 years ago, say

I think on the average they are.  But it's more than a 5 year trend: think 10, 20, 40 years.  Look at pictures like

Kyokai Old Yokozuna

and you'll see the weights (and heights) have increased a lot.  

There's no doubt higher weight leads to more injuries, especially joint and tendon injuries: knees, ankles, wrists.   ;-)

For those who follow it, it's also a trend in american football.  Last year there was a big article in Sports Illustrated on this issue: the weights are getting bigger.  Kids are getting big when they're younger.  Then they get injured more, have shorter careers, and in many cases shorter lives due to weight-related health problems.  A lot of the same issues mentioned by others above...

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

Interesting discussion here. Here are some of my opinions:

- The heightening of the dohyō doesn't seem to be a big factor of injuries. I agree with Yubi.

- The riksihi definitely have become bigger over the years, I think more or less steadily over the last 100 years or so.

- The growing size and strength of the rikishi COULD be a reason for an increase in injuries. This one I don't know for sure.

- The small size of the dohyō obviously is favoring big rikishi. Why do you think Sumō sees so many big rikishi compared to other sports?

- So my reasoning for a possible solution would be to increase the size of the dohyō. Over the long run this should be favorable to smaller rikishi, thus lowering the average size and injuries.

- Of course this would be a radical change, but I believe changing the dohyō diameter has been done before. And my personal perception would be not so much as a change, but as an adaption to the growing size of the rikishi themselves.

- Such radical changes have been done in other sports too to deal with changing technologies etc. Wasn't there an increase in the size of tennis balls? Football talked about enlarging the size of goals... And as Yubi said, don't tell me that the NSK is more adverse to changes than other sports. For example they were the first to implement video replay.

[Zenjimoto 40]

Didn't I JUST read on the SML a couple days ago that the dohyo is intentionally higher up as to give rikishi "enough time" to brace for their falls as they come off it (versus hitting the outside of the ring immediately before assuming a protective position)?  Can't seem to find that post any more, but I thought it was interesting, cause I also tended to think that a larger outside perimeter might help... but perhaps not! :)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Hoshifransu 0]

http://www.sport.fr/combat/sum/sport.swf

From french web site called
there are some interesting "flash news" about many sports, including sumo and that one is very interesting. I translated (I tried) :

Instauration of antidoping checks in sumo
The sumo soon will establish urinary antidoping checks.

[Hoshifransu 0]

And as Yubi said, don't tell me that the NSK is more adverse to changes than other sports. For example they were the first to implement video replay.

Yes, of course, but should we consider the implementation of video like a real change or like a natural thing because, if video had existed when Sumo was created (of course, it hadn't) well, video would have been part of Sumo. It's, in my point of view, a natural implementation,

[Hoshifransu 0]

Sorry, but these changes of rules ... I jus' can't stop thinkin' about the 70's movie called Rollerball (starring James Caan as Jonathan E. the superstar of Rollerball with the Houston team)

In order to get rid of him because he's dangerously too popular, the corporate minds behind the game decided to change the rules ...

to make sure the star player finds it difficult to survive !

By changing the rules of the game and making it increasing more brutal, the corporation hope to see him killed or crippled, thereby retiring him permanently. But their strategy backfires and in the final game, where the rules have been dispensed with completely, and where the teams must play until one or the other is completely wiped out, Jonathan E. is the sole survivor, triumphantly slammin the ball home in his opponents' goal.

A great movie to be watched (the original version, always the original version, not the remake) !

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

The sumo soon will establish urinary antidoping checks.  A big novelty in this martial Japanese traditional art.  

There are also many ways to conduct ineffective anti-doping checks.   We have to wait and see what policy, if any, the Kyokai establishes.

But overall I think this is a good step.  It is unfortunate that such a thing may be necessary.  But it'll keep the sport more honest and if it helps reduce injuries, that's great.  I'd much rather have a Musashimaru who is maybe 20KG lighter but healthy than an injured mountain.

(By the way, I'm not saying Musashimaru uses any drugs, just giving an example)

[Zenjimoto 40]

Hmm, somehow I don't think that the NSK would implament any severe rules changes that will significantly alter the sport.  Ozumo after all has survived this long, and as we know, they are very keen on tradition, which makes out a great part of the sport's charm :)

As for drug testing, I am very much in favor of it in ANY sport.  Personally I have no doubts that in an extreme powersport like sumo, there indeed is quite a bit of doping, drugs or steroids use.  Unfortunate, but as has been written before here, when it comes down to whether you have the edge in the dohyo or not, I doubt too many rikishi would automatically rule it out.

The theory that use of certain substances may be related to injuries is also intriguing, and IMHO very possible, even though I am far from knowledgable in sports medicine.  But it seems plausible that the increase in size/weight is a direct effect of the use of certain substances, such as steroids, which in case leads to increased injury risk.  But then, what do *I* know! :)

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

As for drug testing, I am very much in favor of it in ANY sport.

Count me in on this but only if it's done properly. The current testing methods seem to be quite ridiculous. There are shotputters who push the iron ball for 23 metres in April but once the real threat of exposure becomes too high, the results start dropping.

I might be cynical (and I am! ) but sometimes I'm almost convinced doping control is merely a facade to create an illusion of genuine attempts to expose wrongdoers. (Going nuts...)

[Zenjimoto 40]

As for drug testing, I am very much in favor of it in ANY sport.

Count me in on this but only if it's done properly.

Yeah, it would almost have to be that, they get to pee into a cup before each bout, or at least on shonichi, nakabi and senshuraku.  On top of that there should be random checks, or better yet, weekly checks, between basho... so... 52 tests a year times 650+ rikishi, only 33,800+ urine samples to handle and analyze per year, piece of cake!  (Unhappy...)

I don't know what a reasonable amount of testing would be.  I guess that much testing is impossible.  But it also seems wrong to only test during the bashos and not look into the possible use of drugs during between-basho training.  Maybe random checks every once in a while would suffice?  What should be the punishment for a rikishi who is caught?  Ban from the NSK?  Ban from a basho or two?  Being shot at with an air rifle?

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[QttP 0]

OK, to clear up a few things:

I wasn't joking about enlarging the outside of the dohyo (not the inside of course). I don't know how much of the injuries are caused by it, I just know that I wouldn't want to fall down there when I crash out of the circle.

Of course, it's not the perfect solution, it may help just a little bit or not at all. It may also have other effects, not always positive. Yubi-zeki mentioned one example - it can make it harder for the shimpan to see. Also, some of the spectators might enjoy sitting close to the rikishi, and being crushed by one of them every now and then.

I still think it's worth thinking of. That's why they have the Kyokai. Hearing opinions of rikishi and oyakata could also be nice.

[Zentoryu 154]

How about just putting down some padded mats on the floor surrounding the dohyo? No height change of the dohyo required.

But if they change the dimensions, oh dear, this is almost like Mongolian wrestling : the same rules as sumo, but no area limit : you can wrestle during a long time because of this !

I hope this was one of your attempts at humour, because this is really off the wall paranoia.