Kyokai investigates Injury problems

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

they get to pee into a cup before each bout, or at least on shonichi, nakabi and senshuraku

(...)

Maybe random checks every once in a while would suffice?

Only idiots and Finns (which aren't mutually exclusive) are caught if the time of testing is known beforehand. I'd say a test should be possible any time anywhere but naturally only by a qualified tester approved by NSK.

I've understood there are big countries whose athletes are never tested during their off-season when doping is most likely used to enhance the effects of their practise. During the regular season doping is used much more carefully. Everyone (save for few idiot Finnish skiers) makes sure traces of doping have left their bodies at the time of the testing after the competition.

There is too much money involved. Getting rid of doping is mostly a matter of pure will (to lesser extent it's naturally a question of medicine) and I'm afraid there's preciously little of that will spread among those who control these things. Who would want to see men throw javelin barely above 75 meters or run, say, 5000 meters for 13.30?

Hypocrisy. Yes, that's the word. I'm digressing once again...

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

As for drug testing, I am very much in favor of it in ANY sport.

Count me in on this but only if it's done properly. The current testing methods seem to be quite ridiculous. There are shotputters who push the iron ball for 23 metres in April but once the real threat of exposure becomes too high, the results start dropping.

I might be cynical (and I am! ) but sometimes I'm almost convinced doping control is merely a facade to create an illusion of genuine attempts to expose wrongdoers. (Going nuts...)

Well, I don't think you have to be very cynical to think that... (although of course I'm cynical too ;-) ). It's obvious that there are different interests among big sports leaders, and the doping police are often frustrated by weird decisions from people who apparently are afraid that doping might actually be exposed... I have through the years been quite fascinated at watching Arne Ljungqvist (top guy within IOK:s doping hunting organization) many times resigned apologize for once again having gotten his hands tied behind his back because of some new strange decision from a higher level within IOK...

(Going nuts...)

[Kintamayama 45,132]

I had the time(no I didn't..) so I made an injury graph of the last 20 years, going back to 1980.

Here are the total injuries per year:

Here is a 2-category breakdown of injuries:

How many were kyujo from the start?

How many dropped out after starting?

Also, the number of Yokozuna/Oozeki is staggering-I'd say in the neighborhood of 75%.

Next time that I don't have the time, I'll do that graph as well..

[Hoshifransu 0]

But what if the increased weight *is* the problem? Do you propose they do nothing about it and allow the current situation to continue, thus risking the health of the wrestlers themselves? Just because you're a fan of heavy weight wrestlers? I really don't understand that line of thinking. But then, you and I have rarely seen eye to eye have we?

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Sumo wrestlers are not only bigger than they have ever been before, they are also far more powerful

Anyone more powerful than Chyionofuji today?  I don't think so  :-)

This thread has a lot of interesting points.

The problem is doping, not weight.

But if doping causes large weight increase, e.g. steroids, andro, and other such drugs, than it's the cause of the problem.  

I agree with Hoshifransu-zeki that one of the keys is consistent use and interpretation of anti-doping tests and results.  They can't give benefits to makuuchi rikishi just because they're popular and bring in big crowds.  Like someone else said, a part of the problem is the money and commercial involvement.

As for volumne of tests: I recall reading the during the Sydney olympics, the Australian authorities tested approximately 30000 urine samples in two weeks!  I don't think the volume of sumo tests would be as large, so that shouldn't be a big problem.  This will, however, require an investment on the part of of the Kyokai (and maybe others) to train and certify inspectors, get lab equipment, publich what's allowed and what isn't allowed, and provide some way to arbitrate disputes in this matter.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Very interesting couple of messages previously, great job, Kintamayama-zeki !

Still on french sport.fr, they published some short articles, including that old one (1999/03/10):

in english, it's something like :

"The observers of the sumo worry about the increase in the weight of the wrestlers. Between 1969 and 1999, the average weight of the fighters of the first division passed from 125 kilos to 153 kilos, the heaviest exceeding 200 kilos. The president of the Japanese federation of sumo, Master Tokitsukaze, worry a lot ..."

But more interesting was that one in 2000/12/07 :

something like :

"The sumo starts its revolution.

Unknown in Europe, the sumotori are regarded as demigods in Japan. At the beginning of the 21st century, the persons in charge for this sport have just authorized new movements in a discipline codified to the extreme.

The leaders of this sport governed by ancestral laws have just introduced new catches. Twelve movements will come to be added to the 70 already authorized by the judges. The required goal is to support the blooming of smaller wrestlers but especially quicker.

However the persons in charge did not open the valves completely since they always refuse to open this sport to the women."

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

That addition of 12 new kimarite really has happened in 2001. But the news is wrong because it suggests an implementation of new rules (possibly to help lighter rikishi). This was not the case, there weren't any new rules. It was just a finetuning in the call of the winning technique.

Of course those winning techniques could be applied in 2000 or before. It is just that the gyōji then had to come up with one of the 72 existing kimarite which is nearest to the applied technique. Even with 82 kimarite there will always be a bout which defies normal technique and is difficult to classify. Anyone remember the "ipponzeoi" from Kaiō over Musashimaru or the "tsutaezori" from Asashōryū over Takanonami? Both were far from an ideal execution, but were called this kimarite, because this came closest among the 82 kimarite. If there had been a kimarite like "shake the opponent from the back like an annoying monkey" this would been the right one for the win from Asashōryū over Takanonami. :-)

But I can only repeat, this "rule change" in 2001 was in no way helpful for lighter rikishi.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

But more interesting was that one in 2000/12/07 :

something like :

"The sumo starts its revolution.

Unknown in Europe, the sumotori are regarded as demigods in Japan. At the beginning of the 21st century, the persons in charge for this sport have just authorized new movements in a discipline codified to the extreme.

The leaders of this sport governed by ancestral laws have just introduced new catches. Twelve movements will come to be added to the 70 already authorized by the judges. The required goal is to support the blooming of smaller wrestlers but especially quicker.

However the persons in charge did not open the valves completely since they always refuse to open this sport to the women."

[Hoshifransu 0]

Thanx for both previous messages with precious things I didn't know !

Latest news :

Thursday, February 6, 2003 at 09:30 JST

TOKYO

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Well, I doubt strongly doping causes many, if any of the injuries. It's possible to get strong and big without doping, and sumo is not a sport where doping without doubt would give a rikishi better results. While I think doping is a problem, and almost certainly exists in sumo, it's a seperate problem from the injury problem, or at the very least should be treated seperately, whether a connection exists or not.

[Hoshifransu 0]

I've just found another interesting one, about doping, drugs ...

"TOKYO (AP) -- Japan's sumo governing body may begin testing wrestlers for drugs next month to quiet concerns about doping-related injuries in the ancient sport, a major Japanese newspaper reported Sunday.

The Sumo Association could conduct urine tests during the twice-a-year medical checkups for all wrestlers, said the Yomiuri, the nation's largest daily, citing unidentified sources.

An association spokesman couldn't be reached for comment.

Although no cases of doping have been proven, rumors about drug use -- and its ties to wrestlers' expanding girth and frequent injuries -- abound.

With the goal to push an opponent out of the ring or throw him down, many top-ranked wrestlers have beefed up to get an edge.

Over the past decade, the average weight of wrestlers in the top division -- the best 40 of the roughly 700 professionals in the sport -- has increased by 10 kilograms (22 pounds) to 155 kilograms (345 pounds). The average Japanese man weighs less than 70 kilograms (155 pounds).

But the greater emphasis on size has taken its toll. Increasing heft has meant diminishing speed and technical prowess, and more injuries.

With so many of the top wrestlers sidelined by pain, the sport has lost fans. Both yokozuna grand champions, Hawaiian-born Musashimaru and Takanohana, bowed out of the last competition in November, and in July, 16 wrestlers were absent -- the most since World War II.

Last year, Sumo Association chairman Kitanoumi, a former yokozuna, speculated that performance-enhancing drugs, used to get bigger, may be to blame. He has vowed to investigate.

Critics say doping tests could expose offenders and further undermine support for the sport."

Posted: Sunday January 05, 2003 4:43 PM

from CNNSI.com at this link.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Another article said this :

(...) Asashoryu, who is only 22-years-old, is the picture of health, preferring the Charles Atlas look to the Michelin Man figure that many Japanese wrestlers resemble.

Others argue that many of today's Japanese wrestlers lack the will and determination of former greats like Chiyonofuji and Kitanoumi.

"Chiyonofuji was in much better shape than today's Japanese wrestlers," said Shimoei. "Some wrestlers don't train enough and are overweight and that's why you have injuries."  (...)

[Yoshihisa Shimoie, a writer for Sumo Magazine]

Posted: Monday January 27, 2003 7:00 PM

Full article by clicking here.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Another article said this :

(...) Asashoryu, who is only 22-years-old, is the picture of health, preferring the Charles Atlas look to the Michelin Man figure that many Japanese wrestlers resemble.

Others argue that many of today's Japanese wrestlers lack the will and determination of former greats like Chiyonofuji and Kitanoumi.

"Chiyonofuji was in much better shape than today's Japanese wrestlers," said Shimoei. "Some wrestlers don't train enough and are overweight and that's why you have injuries."

[Zentoryu 154]

Anyone more powerful than Chyionofuji today?  I don't think so

 

Yes, that man possessed some devastatingly powerful Yaocho.

:-)  :-D  :-D

Sumo elders and wrestlers gathered at Ryogoku Kokugikan to listen to doctors and nutritionists who used videos to explain the causal links between muscle training and recent injuries as one of the main topics of discussion.

This is pretty much what I thought they'd be looking at. It seems like common sense for them to check out this aspect of the problem.

The experts on sports medicine also lectured on methods of training, diet and the pluses and minuses of ancient traditions in the Japanese sport.

Can I call 'em or what?  :-D

Step one will probably be looking at different training methods, or adjusting the ones they already have.

Step two will come if the injury rate doesn't decline over the next few years. Just what Step two will be is anyone's guess. Maybe looking into the doping aspect?

[Zentoryu 154]

(light comparing to Konishiki and his 285 kilos and his long career with few injuries)

With "few" injuries???

We're talking about Konishiki, aren't we?

The man's career was plagued by injuries. The heavier he got, the worse it became for him.

Akebono was plagued with bad knees for almost his whole career as a Yokozuna, eventually causing his retirement. The problem was universally blamed on his extremely heavy weight, his legs could no longer support the burden of his bulk.

Both would have had longer careers had they not been so top heavy.

Of the three examples you listed, only Musashimaru can truly be described as a relatively healthy "Super Heavyweight".

I'm not saying that you're argument is not without it's good points, I'm just saying that these two are not good examples to use in support of it.

But naturally, not artificially. (by changing the rules)

I'll say this again: They are NOT going to change the rules, certainly not anytime in the near future. If they do anything at all, it will be in the area of training.

There is little, if any, chance that you will ever have to worry about no Musashimaru's or Konishiki's being in Sumo.

The heavyweights are here to stay.

[Hoshifransu 0]

We're talking about Konishiki, aren't we?

Absolutely. Just look at his stats page at Chiyozakura's site.

Well, Konishiki's all time record is : 649-476-89

Very few injuries for such a long career he had !

Compare to the great (and light, half Konishiki's weight) Chiyonofuji at the same time : 807-253-144 (record in Makuuchi, I have not his all time record)

So, the stats speak up themselves !

For Akebono, it was a bad example, because with 654-232-181, we can consider it's too much !

I'll say this again: They are NOT going to change the rules, certainly not anytime in the near future. If they do anything at all, it will be in the area of training.

There is little, if any, chance that you will ever have to worry about no Musashimaru's or Konishiki's being in Sumo.

The heavyweights are here to stay.

I DON'T want to "play with the words" ... They are going to change some parameters (if you prefer) to disadvantage the heaviest (though, before writing more, I'm still waiting for these changes taking effect to assert what I wrote) and I would like to believe "the heavyweights are here to stay" but after Musashimaru, who's the next 200 kilos and more Hawaiian ?

And even Japanese : Gokenzan is still older and older and he has difficulties to reach the Makuuchi, and Towanoyama too ...

So, the super heavyweights are over ... for a while and with some changes, over for ... ever ?

Because, from now on, (if the changes will take effect)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Lot has been discussed in this interesting thread! Here are some views of mine.

Doping exists in sumo but its significance in the increased amount of injuries is far from clear. Rikishi have very strong bones and ligaments due to sumo training being so impactful. Doping control and education is good though to give rikishi better tools to make their own decisions concerning this matter.

Sharpened muscles are more prone to injuries. This is a well known fact. Rikishis' training should primarily consist of training bouts + all the exercises done on the dohyo area. Supplementary weight training is very good tool in strengthening weak points and rehabilitating injuries. However it is not very necessary for a rikishi to do heavy weights as in sumo training bouts maximum power is in use all the time . Shiko, butsugari-keiko, ukemi etc. serve as a nice package of all-around body endurance training.

Educating rikishi in basic nutrisional processes could be worthwhile. For example excessive protein eating is without grounds as extra goes always to fat synthesis in our body. Lack of any breakfast makes rikishi catabolic during training (catabolic means in this case that a process called gluconeogenesis kicks in and starts to use lactate AND muscles protein in order to make new glucosis) which is quite odd approach for athletes who want to gain power and muscle as a result of training! Some carbohydrates for breakfast (5 bananas for example!) won't make them too full and jeopardise the safety or comfort of training. Lectures of the reasons of cool-down importance, streching timings etc. are never in vain. These are such simple injury prevention measures which don't require much effort. Terao and Daizen were known for their diligent warming up and cooling down and they didn't suffer from injuries much (Terao suffered later in his career yes but he was old...). Takatoriki did a lot of different unorthodox training methods which might have contributed to his longetivity without injuries. Too often people get interested in injury prevention AFTER they have already gotten an injury. SInce Kaio injured his back he has done a lot of special stuff for back and it has worked too. Look at Hayateumi's neck muscles..probably due to the mysterious dangerous neck problem he had already before ozumo career and was even recommended against entrance to ozumo. I am sure he has worked on getting his neck very strong because of this. Dejima learned a new ankle angle in his deashi after his severe ankle fracture etc. This attitude of "I don't have an injury/problem there, why should I pay attention to it?"

is quite common in sports.

There are many current injuries are not really weight-related which is often forgotten. Who would claim Maru's or Takanohana's injuries were weight-related? Musoyama and Tochiazuma suffer from loose shoulders but that is not very uncommon in any contact sport no matter what the weight is. What can be said exclusively is that the huge power many rikishi have nowadays make sumo more dangerous especially in the presence of upper body lock moves like kote/kime. Also many throws are with such force that rikishi fall on the dohyo without being able (due to body position or grip by the thrower) to land well which puts a risk on shoulders for rikishi with shoulder problems. Elbows are killed by kotenage and sometimes kimedashi but also the wear and pressure of dashinage yanks is quite tremendous to elbows.

Konishiki and Akebono were good example of degenerating injuries due to heavy weight. Konishiki's knees are a total cartilage wreck and Akebono suffered from severe arthritis in his both knees at the end of his career. Hoshifransu's stats on Konishiki only prove that he was fighting crippled for a long time and Chiyonofuji suffered from his loose shoulder and tuned muscle based tears I think?

Heavyweight rikishi will always be in sumo. EVen now at Tamanoi-beya a 170kg youngster has joined and in another heya 150kg/167cm/15 years old strong boy makes his debut in Haru if he passes the health check. He was said to be already 100kg many years ago. Anyways he seems to be a more athletic case than Orora was when he joined.

I am not at all convinced that fat has much significance in sumo DIRECTLY. Of course being 170kg is already so much that simply training makes one stronger and in this fat serves as a "natural weight lifting based aid" but the old truth is that one cannot contract fat. 120kg rikishi with abdominal features visible compared to 150kg rikishi who has that 30kg over 120kg pure fat so they would have equal strength.....120kg would win without problems due to better body control and speed. But usually a 150kg rikishi also has more muscle strength than 120kg under that fat. Rikishi who just bear fat are weak. Susanoumi loses to 90kg 16 year olds against whom lets say Toki would beat him with one hand. In makushita there are other giants whose power is very mediocre despite 190kg or so weight. Well of course in some style of sumo if you have extra weight behind your moves the effect is automatically stronger even if the power itself isn't that impressive. Good oshi by 200kg when he can leeeeean forward while doing it must have a major extra effect. In defense fat helps to make opponent's task tougher (Yarborough is not very strong) so yes here fat can help more than in offense!

But then as Manekineko pointed out, there are big rikishi with enormous strength, big bodies and yet speed. Kaio, Musoyama and believe it or not also Miyabiyama

[Zentoryu 154]

Absolutely. Just look at his stats page at Chiyozakura's site.

Well, Konishiki's all time record is : 649-476-89

Very few injuries for such a long career he had !

Compare to the great (and light, half Konishiki's weight) Chiyonofuji at the same time : 807-253-144 (record in Makuuchi, I have not his all time record)

So, the stats speak up themselves !

You put far to much faith in artificial stats. You can't quote stats without knowing the story behind them. As Kaikitsune pointed out, Konishiki's stats only prove that he was fighting crippled for a long time.

Did you ever see him wrestle towards the end? He was a shadow of his former self. He had lost almost all of his mobility. The heavier he got, the worse his condition became. This is a fact.

I would like to believe "the heavyweights are here to stay" but after Musashimaru, who's the next 200 kilos and more Hawaiian ?

First off, Musashimaru is not Hawaiian. Second, not all Hawaiians are going to be 200 kg monsters. We'll see what kind of rikishi come from Hawaii, if any, when Akebono returns from his recruitment trip later this year.

Lastly, Akebono and Konishiki were unique in that both of them were not only large but possessed extraordinary skill and power to go with that size. This porpelled them to the top. None of the other Hawaiians that entered Sumo at the same time, regardless of their size, got much past Maegasira 16.

So, the super heavyweights are over ... for a while and with some changes, over for ... ever ?

Well, that's just not true. Have you seen some of the heavyweights that have joined lately? Time will tell if they ever amount to anything.

As Kaikitsune pointed out, size doesn't equal power. And there are plenty of heavyweight rikishi in sumo's lower ranks, they just never go anywhere. Why? because they are not like Akebono, Konishiki and Musashimaru. They don't have the talent to go along with the weight.

And even if they do reach Makuuchi, if they don't keep their weight under control, they will end up with shortened careers. Just like Konishiki and Akebono.

This doesn't mean that there can't be 200kg wrestlers. Just that those wrestlers have to keep their weight within reason to stay active and healthy.

[Hoshifransu 0]

As Kaikitsune pointed out, Konishiki's stats only prove that he was fighting crippled for a long time.

At first, it has to be proved, it's only a speculation !

I can't imagine someone crippled fighting and staying up for years at this level ...

A real point could be he wasn't at 100% during many time, but like many wrestlers coming back from injury and still a bit injured because of hard demotion rules ...

BTW, I think THAT'S the real problem in Sumo, a real solution to avoid all these kyujo could be doctors disallowing the wrestlers to fight back if they're still very injured !

You put far to much faith in artificial stats. You can't quote stats without knowing the story behind them

Because you know all the stories behind all the wrestlers each time you refer to stats or you write this to anybody else who refer to stats !?

And that's not the debates ! The debates are, for the Kyokai to avoid kyujo and so, to avoid weak tournaments. On that point Konishiki filled all these requirements !

Did you ever see him wrestle towards the end? He was a shadow of his former self.

That's too easy. Which wrestler was not the shadow of his former self at the end ..? Recently, just look at Akinoshima, Takatoriki, Terao, Higonoumi, Takanonami, Dejima (except last basho), Oginishiki, Kitazakura (except last basho), etc..

He had lost almost all of his mobility. The heavier he got, the worse his condition became. This is a fact.

A fact ? Konishiki was on his way down at the end, like many wrestlers, that's the fact. If gaining weight would have been so so so bad for his condition, he won't have done it. He's not stupid. You can't write : he had lost almost all of his mobility, it's very very exagerated : any wrestler losing almost all their mobility could survive in Makuuchi. Anyone can't believe that ! Even you, I'm pretty sure you don't really believe it. (Brushing teeth...)

And even if they do reach Makuuchi, if they don't keep their weight under control, they will end up with shortened careers. Just like Konishiki and Akebono

That's certainly a joke ?

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

You are WAY WAY out of line now Hoshifransu. I just want to point that out. You are rude, and you demand the kind of evidence you are never even close to producing yourself. Calm down, because this issue is too hot now.

[Hoshifransu 0]

You are WAY WAY out of line now Hoshifransu. I just want to point that out. You are rude, and you demand the kind of evidence you are never even close to producing yourself. Calm down, because this issue is too hot now

Calming down ? Me ? As always ... when everybody used to be "hot" with me ? Why not ?  (Nervous...)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

You are WAY WAY out of line now Hoshifransu. I just want to point that out. You are rude, and you demand the kind of evidence you are never even close to producing yourself. Calm down, because this issue is too hot now

Calming down ? Me ? As always ... when everybody used to be "hot" with me ? Why not ?

[Hoshifransu 0]

you are the first one who (in your last message) have gone beyond just answering arguments and rebuking incorrect information. By that you crossed the line

Which spot, please ?

I refer all the time to Syd Hoare and Zentoryu-zeki refered twice to Kaikitsune-zeki in the same answer, that was just a funny wink but I asked myself before posting, that this could have been not rightly interpreted ... Or is it another spot ?  (Hehe...)  (Exclamation)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

you are the first one who (in your last message) have gone beyond just answering arguments and rebuking incorrect information. By that you crossed the line

Which spot, please ?

I refer all the time to Syd Hoare and Zentoryu-zeki refered twice to Kaikitsune-zeki in the same answer, that was just a funny wink but I asked myself before posting, that this could have been not rightly interpreted ... Or is it another spot ?

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Really ? Gimme some names and weights, please ! I will be happy to support them !

Without exact weights I can mention Hokutoarashi, Yanagi and Kainowaka at least. There are others too in both sandanme and makushita. There are some HUGE fellows in makushita whom I am sure you would enjoy rooting for.

I can't imagine someone crippled fighting and staying up for years at this level ...

But you have to remember that not all injuries are curable. Big weight creates ankle and knee degeneration (Konishiki had that already years before retirement) and that is not really an "injury" but is a constant crippling factor. If Konishiki wouldn't have been such a warrior and incredibly tenacious, he would have probably been unable to walk at some point and yet he took part in honbasho! All the respect to this amazing rikishi but I can assure you he was very much a wreck during his last years. He had good strength to the end in his muscles and he knew sumo inside out and persevared in maegashira ranks pleasing the crowd by just appearing on the dohyo.

Konishiki was on his way down at the end, like many wrestlers, that's the fact. If gaining weight would have been so so so bad for his condition, he won't have done it. He's not stupid

Well KOnishiki did try to lose his weight on many occasions after his career without success so I seriously doubt he wanted to gain weight up to 285kg. He was at his best at 220-240kg I think. There is no logic in "Oh I have knee problems, I know! I will gain more weight!" and yes I am sure Konishiki isn't stupid so this weight gain was unwanted...

We need all you here guys! This is heated conversation now with opposite views on many issues but please let the fight be between issues and not persons!

:-)