Is Asashoryu a dirty cheat deserving of poetic justice?

[Coo-cook 0]

Kisenosato should start to think about not dis (Blushing...) the Yokozuna.

After losing to *yokozuna* Takanohana, Asashoryu, then not yet a yokozuna, told a throng of reporters he should have kicked the yokozuna's (severely injured) knee if he knew he was going to be beaten.

Just remembering what goes around comes around or what's good for the goose is good for the gander thing.

Unbelievable, he said something like this. Are the Japanese media reporting all this "sensational" as Shukan Gendai? (Help me...)

Jonosuke-san, of course you believe such reporting, because you want to.

And, it fits the logic and stereotype perfectly (how nice).....because Asa is an unhuman, brutal and dirty cheater he's on the top.....maybe very soon you would call him "criminal" and "murderer".....

Oh yeah, nobody wants to be called a "racist"....Are you Jonosuke-san?

Enough is enough.......

Edited March 30, 2007 by Coo-cook

[Asashosakari 19,660]

After losing to *yokozuna* Takanohana, Asashoryu, then not yet a yokozuna, told a throng of reporters he should have kicked the yokozuna's (severely injured) knee if he knew he was going to be beaten.

Just remembering what goes around comes around or what's good for the goose is good for the gander thing.

Unbelievable, he said something like this. Are the Japanese media reporting all this "sensational" as Shukan Gendai? (Shaking head...)

Jonosuke-san, of course you believe such reporting, because you want to.

...

Yeah, I'm sure Jonosuke and the Japanese reporters conspired to make up this comment by Asashoryu, just like all the other post-bout comments are always fake, too.

[ilovesumo 12]

I like emotions a lot, like the tears of Musoyama after his Yusho etc. but the clowns make me angry cause it's anti-sumo somehow- no dignity nor pride in it... A pose like "YESSSSSSSS I DID IT" isn't good but has to be forgiven. I find myself doing it all the time after a favorite's win, but I am no Rikishi, so... (Shaking head...)

The ultimate NO NOOO was Roho's reaction after the Chiyotaikai bout for sure.

For Shoryu- cause of all this anti he bacame anti too.

I wonder how things change with 2 mongolian Yokozuna at the top.

Edited March 30, 2007 by ilovesumo

[Asojima 2,874]

I wonder how things change with 2 mongolian Yokozuna at the top.

My reading of Hakuho's body language indicates that he will be as vengeful, if not more so, as Asa if he becomes a yokozuna. I suspect that the NSK recognizes that also, and it was a factor in their decision not to reward his previous tsuna run. The insiders are much more familiar with the personalities of the rikishi than we can hope to be.

Edited March 30, 2007 by Asojima

[Bealzbob 0]

Otherwise ozumo would be diminished to the level of any Western combat sport. Your Western way of thinking shows clearly through. You might think the ozumo way sucks. I happen to think it doesn't and that this mindset forms a large part of ozumo's attractiveness.

Totally totally agree. One of the main reason's why I love sumo so much is probably because of the anachronisms - that's not a backhanded compliment either. The stuff that has been lost (or was never there) in other sports is still there in sumo and I never want that to change. If it did, it would undoubtedly be for the worse. And it is the job of those in charge to make sure it doesn't change.

Promoting Hakuho partially on the back of a henka'd yusho might, in my eyes, be seen as relaxing the sumo-do requirements somewhat too..... Just a thought.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Oh yeah, nobody wants to be called a "racist"

Indeed, so you'd be appreciated if you stopped insinuating such a thing. I've been called a racist online several times. By the Brazilians for criticizing Senna, Germans for Schumacher and Mongolians for Asashoryu. I've even criticized my fellow countrymen yet no one has called me racist for that so I guess it all depends on being a member of one group and criticizing a member of another.

The only thing I have against Mongolians is that some of you have incredibly thin skin and believe that something directed against one of you is an insult against the whole nation. Moreover, if you want to see racists, look closer.

[nirumaruyama 0]

Can I make the point that the debate of racisim/racist comments etc. are completely off-topic.

[Bealzbob 0]

Kyokushuzan was not asked to change his style. Some rikishi complained that his unorthodox style made it difficult to take ukemi (a proper fall so as not to injure themselves).

Found the following paragraph here.

However, during his (Kyokushuzan) time in the lower divisions, Kyokushuzan drew great advantage from these techniques and many of his opponents were injured, surprised by his

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Kyokushuzan was not asked to change his style. Some rikishi complained that his unorthodox style made it difficult to take ukemi (a proper fall so as not to injure themselves).

Found the following paragraph here.

However, during his (Kyokushuzan) time in the lower divisions, Kyokushuzan drew great advantage from these techniques and many of his opponents were injured, surprised by his

[Hananotaka 8]

FWIW, neither Kyokushuzan's Japanese Wikipedia entry, nor his entry on Kazuhisa Takayama's webpage, both of which are quite knowledgeable and thorough in information, have any kind of mention of a ban, official or unofficial. It's my opinion that all we have are rumors of complaints, and any talk of serious pressure to change is speculation. And that if there was pressure, it had little real effect.

[philafuji 1]

Sports in general have changed so much from what they used to be.

I sure would hate to see sumo follow the same path. The Yokozuna may act differently than former ones, but too ask if he is a dirty cheat may be taking it a little to far.

IMO of course. If it begins to really get out of hand I would hope that the powers to be crack down on him hard, becuase sumo should be respected from the old times to the present.

Dancing in the end zone in football should have been dealt with right away. It wasn't and now it has become a circus.

Let's hope this does not happen in Sumo.

The yokozuna is great, and I don't see how any one can argue that. If his actions and respect to his opponents go to far then action against him should be delt with swiftly.

We don't want rikishi's dancing on the dohyo after winning their bouts.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Sports in general have changed so much from what they used to be.

I sure would hate to see sumo follow the same path. The Yokozuna may act differently than former ones, but too ask if he is a dirty cheat may be taking it a little to far.

IMO of course. If it begins to really get out of hand I would hope that the powers to be crack down on him hard, becuase sumo should be respected from the old times to the present.

Dancing in the end zone in football should have been dealt with right away. It wasn't and now it has become a circus...

This is one of the main themes in David Benjamin's much maligned book, The Joy of Sumo. Though dated, still worth a read. Well written, humourous, and oh-so relevant.

[Coo-cook 0]

Oh yeah, nobody wants to be called a "racist"

Indeed, so you'd be appreciated if you stopped insinuating such a thing. I've been called a racist online several times. By the Brazilians for criticizing Senna, Germans for Schumacher and Mongolians for Asashoryu. I've even criticized my fellow countrymen yet no one has called me racist for that so I guess it all depends on being a member of one group and criticizing a member of another.

The only thing I have against Mongolians is that some of you have incredibly thin skin and believe that something directed against one of you is an insult against the whole nation. Moreover, if you want to see racists, look closer.

Criticizing Senna and Schumacher ...and you've been called racist ? ....... doesn't sound credible.

When Kyokutenho married to a Japanese woman no Mongolian "racists" raised up their heads. It was completely OK ....nothing unusual.

The talk about Hakuho was a bit different....mostly they were saying Hakuho should keep the Mongolian wrestling tradition....I would rather call them not racists ...maybe "traditionalist", who sees their culture in danger (very similar to some Japanese traditionalists, I guess).

I don't agree with either sentiments and I don't support whether they are "racists" or "traditionalists" whoever.

Yes, we might have a very thin skin.....because racism is always inflicted by Nations who think they are better developed and therefore better as humans compared to less developed Nations.

(Mongolians are racists?......no way.)

Our reaction is maybe more or less a sort of defence of our culture and way of live which too many see it as backward and barbaric.

We don't want be called barbaric and brutal ....as you don't want be called a racist. Very simple.

(I know you were talking only about Asashoryu.)

[Kintamayama 45,527]

English paper-if it's written in the newspaper, it must be true:

http://tinyurl.com/37mc4k

(Neener, neener...)

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Criticizing Senna and Schumacher ...and you've been called racist ? ....... doesn't sound credible.

It did surprise myself as well on both occasions. I suppose it's some kind of ad hoc brain fart people use when they run out of anything that could be backed up with facts. Then again I got the impression I was likened to a paedophile once when I supported NSK for not allowing a woman to step onto the dohyo.

(I know you were talking only about Asashoryu.)

Indeed, never had a problem with another Mongolian even though I have reservations against non-Japanese rikishi in general. I wouldn't miss them as a group but that's for another thread.

[Sasanishiki 57]

...So, to then see the yokozuna himself go down to a Hakuho henka but minutes later during the yusho decider was poetic justice -- a deserved slap-down if ever there was one in the eyes of many....

... and the second that he is a cheat (a leagal one at that) and deserves to be treated to a henka as punishment.

I haven't read the pages and pages of this topic but your initial statement struck me. I don't think MB's saying Asashoryu is a cheat by what he wrote. Also, I don't think that you can logically be a legal cheat, can you? All MB said was that people thought it was just desserts that Asa lost by henka when he had used it to get into the kettei-sen. Yes, it is legal and part of the sport. However, it is perhaps sumo unbecoming a yokozuna and that he used it was seen as poor form. This is especially true when you consider he was facing Chiyotaikai who is so banged up these days that he should not be able to beat the yokozuna regularly. That Asa then lost a more important match by falling for a henka is ironic and perhaps poetic justice. That is all MB was saying, I believe, not that Asa is a cheat.

Apologies if this has been said before...

[nirumaruyama 0]

I completely understand your point Sasanishki. I inferred from the article that Asashoryu was 'cheating' - using a move a Yokozuna is not supposed to use which would be completely unexpected by his opponent. I called him a 'legal cheat' because, as you say, a henka is allowable in sumo although generally frowned upon. It's like people and companies who use loopholes in the tax system to pay less taxes than they ought to - it's legal, allowable but at the same time the 'system' would regard it as cheating.

I thought the tone used by MB in relation to the yokozuna implied that there was somehting dirty and unseemly about the yokozuna and his performance.

As a result of this, Hakuho's henka was seen to be more legitimate than the yokozuna's. Which is rather contradictory. How is one henka better than another? It may be seen as Judge Dredd type of justice rather than poetic.

I think both matches on senshuraku were deeply disappointing for the majority of sumo fans. I personally dislike the henka. I would see Hakuho's henka as the more heinous of the day. The reason: There is a packed hall, full of excitement and tension waiting for the big showdown of, arguably, the 2 best rikishi of the basho. After 15 days it's come down to this. Everyone is looking forward to a titanic battle...and Hakuho jumps out of the way.

Poetic justice would have been Hakuho showing the yokozuna that henkas were for scaredy-cats, taking the yokozuna's tachi-ai like the ozeki he is and crsushing him with the great sumo that he can do. Hakuho's henka cheated the sumo fans around the world. Asashoryu's henka cheated Chiyotaikai out of a chance to get his kachi-koshi and cheated the audience of good sumo for that bout but it created the opportunity for the sudden death play-off = drama, tension, excitement, nail-biting and the opportunity for more people to fall in love with sumo. Hakuho's henka did the opposite of that.

I think if Asashoryu is a cheat then Hakuho is just as guilty and there was no justice, poetic or otherwise, in Asashoryu's defeat.

[Bealzbob 0]

Now bearing all of that in mind, my question to both of you is -

If we accept that a henka is unbecoming of a yokozuna, why is Hakuho (as an aspiring yokozuna) not getting a harder time of it for using the tactic? Surely as someone who hopes to very soon BE a yokozuna, this should count against him. Especially considering he won a yusho with it !!!

[nirumaruyama 0]

If we accept that a henka is unbecoming of a yokozuna, why is Hakuho (as an aspiring yokozuna) not getting a harder time of it for using the tactic? Surely as someone who hopes to very soon BE a yokozuna, this should count against him. Especially considering he won a yusho with it !!!

Exactly!

[Hananotaka 8]

Seriously, guys. It's pretty simple. Of course henka is frowned upon by those who aspire to be Yokozuna. But precisely because of that it is frowned upon even more when an actual Yokozuna does it! A rikishi who's not yet Yokozuna can be given some leeway for further development. A Yokozuna has no such excuse. They've already said, "I'll do my best not to besmirch the title of Yokozuna," and so they better damn well not do that. The attitude toward henka is tied into rank. The higher you are, the more is expected of you.

[Daigaiguma 0]

I think it's interesting that the "he shows too much emotion" rant has (recently, at least) only been leveled at the likes of Asa or Hakuho. I've watched every basho for the past three years and while there have been incidents at least every basho with either Asa, Hakuho, or both displaying too much emotion/aggression, they are not the biggest offenders.

Takamisakari displays an excess of emotion EVERY time he is on the dohyo. Whether it's crying in defeat or jutting out his chest in victory.

Kitazakura is also a repeat offender. He thrusts his fist about every victory, and I once saw him lay on the dohyo for an extended period of time after suffering makekoshi on senshuraku (Hatsu 06).

Chiyotaikai has had his moments as well, most notably that awful spat with Roho last year.

Kisenosato is forever glowering at potential opponents and then curtly nodding (not bowing) if he loses.

So if we're discussing too much emotion, lets not concentrate our debate soley on Mongolian (or foreign rikishi).

If you want great examples of how a rikishi should carry himself, look no further than Ama, Homasho, Kotooshu, and Toyonoshima. They carry themselves very well, especially in defeat.

I know mentioning Kotooshu may get me slammed, but if you have watched sumo a lot recently, you have seen him lose at least 5 to 6 bouts a basho. Each time, he seems to stoically accept his defeat. I have also never seen him (recently, that is) pump his fist in victory.

Just food for thought.

[_the_mind_ 0]

Seriously, guys. It's pretty simple. Of course henka is frowned upon by those who aspire to be Yokozuna. But precisely because of that it is frowned upon even more when an actual Yokozuna does it! A rikishi who's not yet Yokozuna can be given some leeway for further development. A Yokozuna has no such excuse. They've already said, "I'll do my best not to besmirch the title of Yokozuna," and so they better damn well not do that. The attitude toward henka is tied into rank. The higher you are, the more is expected of you.

why is it worse for someone who has already acheived the rank to do this rather then for someone who is trying to prove he is worthy of the rank? Asa already has the rank, he has exerted his dominance in sumo for years now. for him it litereally is a "nearly never happens" event. but hakuho is trying to show us he is worthy of this rank and he gets a pass? if its wrong for Asa to do, its just as wrong for a tsunatori(is that the right word here?) ozeki to stand on.

[Asashosakari 19,660]

why is it worse for someone who has already acheived the rank to do this rather then for someone who is trying to prove he is worthy of the rank?

Because Asashoryu literally needs to show that he remains worthy of the rank at all times. Becoming a yokozuna isn't a "one and done" thing, unlike e.g. becoming a world champion in Western sports.

It's not like Asashoryu is the only yokozuna ever to be treated this way. Takanohana took a boatload of criticism for failing to uphold the expectations placed on yokozuna when he took off more than a year to recuperate from his knee injury. While a completely different matter obviously, the idea behind the criticism is the same.

[Hananotaka 8]

why is it worse for someone who has already acheived the rank to do this rather then for someone who is trying to prove he is worthy of the rank?

Because Asashoryu literally needs to show that he remains worthy of the rank at all times. Becoming a yokozuna isn't a "one and done" thing, unlike e.g. becoming a world champion in Western sports.

Bingo. I can't stress enough the fact that as Yokozuna Asashoryu has responsibilities that other rikishi don't have. One of which is to uphold an impossible standard. Traditionally it is said that 横綱は神様, yokozuna wa kamisama: A Yokozuna is a god. It's not for nothing that he wears the white belt with paper lightning, a Shinto symbol delineating the mortal world and the divine. For this he is held to a standard above ALL. Let Hakuho henka everyday of the tournament. Yeah, it's bad, and he won't get to Yokozuna that way, but it's still not as bad as one Yokozuna henka. That's like God farting. Asashoryu represents all sumo; when he can no longer live up to the image as the strongest rikishi, he has to retire. Hakuho has no such responsibility.

As I said, it's an impossible standard, and no one has ever truly lived up to it. Every Yokozuna has had their incidents, their moments of un-Yokozuna behavior. Wakanohana III henka'd and went makekoshi, definitely two big no-nos. I took his side back in the day, and I'd still do it today, because these are men, not gods. But while the substance of the criticism can be argued (I'm a lefty, so all things being equal I'd rather argue for Asa picking up kensho with his left hand), the existence of criticism cannot be. That's part of the job description.

And, incidently, criticism of the Yokozuna and Yokozuna-candidates is part of the job description of the YDC. I, personally, think the YDC is obsolete and should be done away with, but you can't fault them for doing their jobs.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Hananotaka