Asa in hot water again?

[Jonosuke 28]

Four hundred posts later and you guys are still arguing this aspect? Give it up already! We've moved on, haven't we?

Actually this point is pretty significant for Asashoryu himself. He believes he does not deserve such a harsh penalty because he particiapated in the event for Ozumo. He volounteered his own private time without any fee for a publicly sponsored event as a repsentative of Ozumo. He felt he did it all for Ozumo.

What more can Ozumo show its goodwill in Mongolia by having its yokozuna helping out a UNICEF youth event? He did it willingly without any reservation.

That is the reason he wanted to explain his action to the directors in their special meeting but he was never called upon before them as they simply handed out the suspension without his presence. Asashoryu simply cannot fathom why such an innocent action warrants such a harsh penalty.

So we really have not moved on. But one thing you do echo what most oyakata are saying these days.

And one more O/T thing: I always thought it wasn't "the carelessness" killing Kintamayama but "the caress" is...

OK....sorry about this but I couldn't help it after 400 posts...

[Kotonosato 1]

He believes he does not deserve such a harsh penalty because he particiapated in the event for Ozumo. He volounteered his own private time without any fee for a publicly sponsored event as a repsentative of Ozumo. He felt he did it all for Ozumo.

There's is no way that he's still saying that now. (I should say: There is no way he's still sending his psychiatrist out to say that for him now.) That would be a complete outrage to the kyokai and the public.

If he really still thinks that, then his oyakata should not allow him to speak in public until he's ready to apologize. There will be no redeeming himself with anyone if he doesn't turn it around soon.

[Kotonosato 1]

If somebody keeps repeating the same tired nonsense even after other posters have pointed out all the factual mistakes two dozen times, he's a troll in common internet parlance, or at best a mission poster.

I had never heard this expression before, but I think the SML should rightly be named the SMPML.

[paolo 0]

That is the reason he wanted to explain his action to the directors in their special meeting but he was never called upon before them as they simply handed out the suspension without his presence.

Is the above correct ? I thought that I had read that he was interviewed by the Kyokai just after his return from Mongolia, and therefore before the final judgment. It is important to know, because if the Kyokai had never heard his version, the Kyokai themselves would have behaved in a way that should be considered unconceivable (at least in western world...).

[Jonosuke 28]

I thought that I had read that he was interviewed by the Kyokai just after his return from Mongolia, and therefore before the final judgment.

What is exactly the Kyokai you are speaking of? Asashoryu reported to Kitanoumi oyakata after he flew back from Mongolia for 20 mintues accompanied by his shisho Takasago oyakata. If you consider this to be an interview then he was interviewed.

A directors meeting would normally have 10 directors including the chairman and three auditor inspectors. Through Takasago oyakata, Asashoryu asked to plead his case in front of them but his wish was not granted.

I believe they felt there was a clear cut case here.

Fact: Asashoryu submitted a medical report listing what was ailing him.

Fact: Due to the serious nature of injury, he stated it was not possible for him to participate Jyungyo events

Fact: He was seen in video playing a soccer game, appearing totally unlike someone who was suffering from serious injuries requiring six weeks of treatment

Fact: He left for Mongolia without seeking a prior permission (when asked his shisho was not even aware of his whereabout)

The directors pretty much had all the facts in front of them for disciplinary measures and felt there was no need to have Asashoryu explaining to them.

[paolo 0]

A directors meeting would normally have 10 directors including the chairman and three auditor inspectors. Through Takasago oyakata, Asashoryu asked to plead his case in front of them but his wish was not granted.

That sounds unbelievable: you have a Yokozuna that has almost certainly made a big mistake and you do not even hear what he has got to say ?

I believe they felt there was a clear cut case here.

The directors pretty much had all the facts in front of them for disciplinary measures and felt there was no need to have Asashoryu explaining to them.

This would precisely mean that a judgement has been taken by a directors meeting in anger and maybe under a pressure of phone calls from disappointed people. In what civilized environment can it be considered acceptable that a judge does not even let the person accused explain and defend himself ?

If things went like you described them, for the first time I start to think that Asashoryu, apart from his big mistake, has got some reason to be in the state he is...... But maybe I am not Japanese and so I cannot understand ?

[madorosumaru 7]

Takasago Oyakata spent an hour and half at Asashoryu's apartment, trying to convince him either to go get treatment as an-outpatient or to get hospitalized. He also urged the yokozuna to meet with the press to make a public apology.

"I failed to convince him," said the shisho afterwards. "I kept saying, 'Let's have a press conference' and 'Why don't you go to the hospital?' But, it didn't work. I'll go again tomorrow. I'll go [everyday] until he agrees."

The doctors who have seen Asashoryu have suggested that allowing Ryu to go back to Mongolia would be beneficial. The chances of that happening at this point is slim. A significant number of the board members, led by Oshima Oyakata, have been vocal in their opposition. Even if a board meeting is called, any such suggetion would surely be voted down. Takasago Oyakata is changing his tack, "I am not bringing that subject up."

Although he failed in his mission to convince the yokozuna, Takasago saw some hopeful signs. While Ryu did not respond to questions by the doctors and to previous visitors, he engaged in a "discussion" with the oyakata. He wondered aloud, "How did it get into such a [mess]?" He would also tear up when talking about the punishment and his current condition, "Why . . . ?"

Kitanoumi Rijicho is back from vacation and received a report from Takasago. Commenting on the oyakata's decision not to seek the Mongolia trip, rijicho said, "That's obvious. It's better for [the yokozuna] to get treatment at a hospital. I want him to get as much therapy as available. I'd prefer the shisho to take proper care of such matter."

Q: What happened today?

Takasago: "I failed to convince him. I said repeatedly 'let's at least start with a press conference. How about going to the hospital?' But it didn't work.

Q: How was the yokozuna?

T: From our talk, it looks like he will be responding more positively. He did not say 'Absolutely not' [to my suggestion of hospitalization."

Q: What did the yokozuna say?

T: "He said things like 'How did it get be such a [mess]?' I think he is in a quandary (oyakata used the word dilemma). He would get teary-eyed and say, 'Why' or 'How come . . .'"

Q: What is your position?

T: Well, there is the acute stress disorder and also the back and elbow. I asked him several times to get treatment at a hospital. I think he gave me some honest responses.

Q: What now?

T: I'll go again tomorrow. I'll go until he agrees. Look, he talked to me. I think with a little more effort, we can have a press conference.

Q: What about your report to the rijicho?

T: He told me to keep on trying. He also believes that hospitalization and therapy would be best.

Q: What about returning to Mongolia as an option?

T: It doesn't exist.

After Takasago's visit, Dr. Hiraishi, Ryu's personal physician, and Kenshiro Matsunami, a member of the Diet, came to see Asashoryu. They stayed for about an hour and 20 minutes. All the politician said was "This is worrisome." The doctor said, "His condition hasn't changed. I just came to see how he was doing. We did not do any therapy."

Meanwhile, a caravan of 12 speaker trucks (those used in political campaigns) drove up to the front of the Kokugikan. The loudspeakers blared: "Kick Asashoryu out!" "Don't screw with our national sport!" "Shame on the Kyokai!" That went on for about 30 minutes. The group tried to force themselves into Kokugikan property and the security guards had to hurriedly close the iron gates.

Edited August 10, 2007 by madorosumaru

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Meanwhile, a caravan of 12 speaker trucks (those used in political campaigns) drove up to the front of the Kokugikan. The loudspeakers blared: "Kick Asashoryu out!" "Don't screw with our national sport!" "Shame on the Kyokai!" That went on for about 30 minutes. The group tried to force themselves into Kokugikan property and the security guards had to hurriedly close the iron gates.

These guys?

[Jonosuke 28]

Takasago oyakata is looking more and more stressed out these days and some are beginning to worry about his health, more so than that of his deshi, Asashoryu.

These older timers remember fondly of the current Takasago oyakata's shisho, 5th Takasago oyakata (46th yokozuna Asashio Taro). The 5th Takasago oyakata had a 19 year old Samoan rikishi named Nankairyu joining his heya. Ryu of Nankairyu is the same kanji as that of Asashoryu. Nankairyu was a superb athlete. He made his dohyo debut at the 1984 Aki basho and by the 1987 May basho he was already promoted to Juryo.

Yokozuna Chiyonofuji was so conscious of Nankairyu as he had a very similar sumo style as his and having the same physique. Chiyonofuji always went all out against him. Nankairyu's heya mate Konishiki thought so highly of him that Nankairyu would be no doubt a future yokozuna.

However there was one fatal habit Nankairyu had. He drank so much so often that he was just a short of self destruction. In 1988 Nankairyu withdrew from the Aki basho, excusing himself for having a stomach ailiment. But he actually missed his bout because he drunk so much the night before and he was in no condition to compete.

His "fake" illness was immediately discovered and the shisho confronted Nankairyu by asking him to choose either sumo or drinking. Nankairyu told him there was no question in his mind and it was drinking. Then he left to go back to Samoa. The Kyokai could not ignore such an insubordination and the Rijicho at the time (Futagoyama oyakata, former yokozuna Wakanohana I) decreed that even if he'd ever come back again, they would not let him compete ever again (Nankairyu's name was still on the banzuke).

However the stress of all this was too much for the Takasago oyakata. Less than one month after the incident, he suffered a stroke and went in coma. He never recovered from coma and passed away on October 23 1988. After just seeing Wakanohana's Kanreki ceremonial dohyo-iri, he was so looking forward to his own in the following year. The oyakata was only 58 years old.

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj 0]

Meanwhile, a caravan of 12 speaker trucks (those used in political campaigns) drove up to the front of the Kokugikan. The loudspeakers blared: "Kick Asashoryu out!" "Don't screw with our national sport!" "Shame on the Kyokai!" That went on for about 30 minutes. The group tried to force themselves into Kokugikan property and the security guards had to hurriedly close the iron gates.

Well. Asa wants to go out to Mongolia, does not he?

Shame on Kyokai, they should allow Asa go home (Whistling...)

[Murakami 0]

Maybe I am too late, but in hopes of clearing up some of the things said here and since I have some first hand accounts on the event that led to the kinshin decision, I just would like to offer my humble views and perspectives on this matter.

A friend of mine was affiliated with the organizers of that infamous soccer match. I happened to be dropping her off at the event site when it was informed to me Asashoryu and some Japanese soccer star were going to attend the event. I am normally a very busy person, but I was free at that time and out of curiosity I joined her to watch the soccer match, which is a very unusual thing to happen for me. A bunch of kids started playing and some adults, one of them the alleged Japanese star. I watched a bit but Asa was still nowhere to be seen. The heat was oppressive that day I was sweating profusely even while I am sitting. After waiting for a while, I started thinking of slipping off from the event and the heat altogether when Asa suddenly joined in the fun from the second half??? To me he was just in jovial mood and the event was in fact in jovial atmosphere. He was laughing while half-walking and half-running in short distance here and there. Toward the end of the match, he suddenly sprung into an action just for a few seconds when he tricked and caught off guard of the kids and scored a goal. And that

[Hananotaka 8]

A bunch of kids started playing and some adults, one of them the alleged Japanese star.

Yes, the jury is still out on whether Hide Nakata is a Japanese soccer star. (Whistling...)

I think the recent Kyokai decision is made in haste and in hot headed atmosphere. If they were basing their decision on the fact he went to Mongolia without permission and prior notice or for some other reasons, I would be quite willing to be understanding. However, the Kyokai members objected primarily to his participation in the charity soccer match. For me this is lacking in morality, to be precise, commonly accepted human morality. Anyone who thinks the soccer match was a sports event, even closely, is plain silly and naive. I wish to add no further.

For the umpteenth time, no one thinks that this was a real sports event with all the participants trying their best to score a goal. The Kyokai's punishment is because:

a) Asashoryu asked for and received permission to skip the current jungyou tour because of a doctor's diagnosis that he need six weeks of rest and treatment for his back.

b) Asashoryu then went to Mongolia without permission.

c) While in Mongolia, Asa engaged in physical activity (the soccer match). No, no one thinks it was a real, competitive sports event, but if he was fit enough to fly to Mongolia, run around with some kids, lightly kick a ball, and make an attempt at a header, he was obviously fit enough to get on a bullet train, go to jungyou, sign some autographs, and lend his appearance to the tour, if not actually do a dohyo-iri.

The problem is that Asa lied about the extent of his injury and clearly demonstrated that he lied for all to see, causing a huge PR mess for the Kyokai. That is why he was punished. Not for participating in a charity event, not for running around with some kids.

[Murakami 0]

I am not sure about the credibility of this report. However, it was reported today in one of the major local newspapers, Asa will hold a press conference next week to talk about the Kyokai's decision and about his health. His eldest brother Sumyabazar is reported to have been left for Japan to meet him.

[paolo 0]

But maybe I am not Japanese and so I cannot understand ?

You don't need to be Japanese to understand. However if you try to judge what is happening by comparing it to other sports or to real life then you never will.

Sumo is a feudal world. It doesn't operate by the same rules as other sports. In fact it's not even a sport really. It's a way of life. I think that is the problem for the people who post saying "it's not fair that...." They don't understand this vital point and continue to judge the whole situation from the point of view of other sports or real life court cases etc.

The aim of my post was a bit wider than the single sentence that you quote.

The main point was that, for the first time after 20 days, 500 posts and 2000 e-mails, I eventually discovered that the directors meeting did not even HEAR Asashoryu. So they judged looking only at the facts, their anger, telephone calls, fan reactions, without taking into consideration the ways and the circumstances, (which in ALL cases are as important as the facts themselves). Not only did they that, but did they not give the accused any chance to explain and defend himself.

These are facts, aren't they ? I ask those who understand: is this an adult and civilized behaviour ?

For example the fact that Asashoryu was in the wrong to play soccer is not a point of debate in Japan. It's just not an issue. The people who continue to defend his actions don't seem to understand this. Even Asashoryu realised this and apologised upon his return.

There is no doubt that Asashoryu made a mistake, that is there and remains there even if the ways and the circumstances show that it was much less severe than what it looks. I am not defending his actions. I am considering the way he was treated by the directors. They complain that Asashoryu does not behave like a yokozuna: did they treat him like a yokozuna (I could even say: like a man), refusing to hear what he had to say ?

[Arvi 0]

I have followed this thread for some time now, and I feel that some forum members are completely missing some important points:

Ozumo isn't plainly a sport. It's also a Japanese cultural phenomen, and also a part of (shinto?) religion (practically, top maegashira and yokozuna especially may be counted as some sort of priests).

All three aspects of Ozumo are for Japanese community to decide over. Foreigeners are allowed to participate for some time now, but they have to accept the standards and requirements accepted by Japanese community. And they must at least formally behave accordingly requirements for all 3 aspects - like any japanese rikishi. (It is what foreigeners must be teached on their fist couple of years in heya, is it? And as for foreigen fans - you accept it or you find another sport to be a fan at!)

The Kyokai is accepted by Japanese community as 'spokesperson' and highest authority in sumo affairs, and Japanese community is the only power, which can question about it's decisions. (Principially, when Kyokai decides, that from some time on, yokozuna must wear pink ribbons in his hair, and there will be no objections in public in Japan, Asashoryu must start or to looking for ribbons, or to packing.)

Takasago Oyakata failed miserably teaching Asashoryu proper ways in his early years in Ozumo. But his doesn't mean, that Kyokai can't (and mustn't) demand proper behaviour from yokozuna now. (It only means, that when Takasago Oyakata fails to get at least some control over situation now, he will be next in hot water in near future.)

And finally, my personal meaning about the whole affair. For me it looks like struggle between Asashoryu and Kyokai over power in Ozumo. Making a step back now may cause an irredeemable loss of face for Kyokai.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

...I eventually discovered that the directors meeting did not even HEAR Asashoryu. So they judged looking only at the facts, their anger, telephone calls, fan reactions, without taking into consideration the ways and the circumstances, (which in ALL cases are as important as the facts themselves). Not only did they that, but did they not give the accused any chance to explain and defend himself.

These are facts, aren't they ? I ask those who understand: is this an adult and civilized behaviour ?

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned earlier, but that's not the way things work in Japan in general. Typically decisions are made before meetings, and the meetings themselves serve as mere formality to inform all of the decision(s). The rijicho himself meet with Asashoryu and his shiso before the meeting i.e. when there was still a decision-making process taking place. Asa had his chance to plead his case and say whatever needed to be said. He was in no way treated unfairly.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Otokonoyama

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

I ask those who understand: is this an adult and civilized behaviour ?

Did You even read Nishi's reply before asking again? He already answered:

Sumo is a feudal world. It doesn't operate by the same rules as other sports. In fact it's not even a sport really. It's a way of life. I think that is the problem for the people who post saying "it's not fair that...." They don't understand this vital point and continue to judge the whole situation from the point of view of other sports or real life court cases etc.

You're welcome to dismiss that code of conduct from a "civilized" point of view, but please don't put Your disagreement into the same questions again and again.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

You know it's August when the number of speaker trucks blaring outside your work goes from one or two a day to 50. Next week will be hell. Unfortunately I have to listen to them everyday all day as they park in Shinbashi and spew their vitrol for hours.

Oh to have an RPG.

The Right-Wing Spotter's Sheet has some additional details not covered on Wikipedia...

[Kintamayama 45,529]

These are facts, aren't they ? I ask those who understand: is this an adult and civilized behaviour ?

Is being a constant slave to someone ranked higher than you ( and in many cases much younger than you) civilized behaviour?

Is being forced to live (in some cases for many years) in the same small room with 10 other grown usually overweight men who constantly snore and fart civilized behaviour?

Is being forced to do keiko virtually naked daily in the winter in freezing weather civilized behaviour?

Is not being allowed to heal your injuries without paying a heavy price in ranking civilized behaviour?

Is being subject to sometimes degrading and humiliating training methods civilized behaviour?

Is a grown man having to ask for permission to leave the heya premises to go to the movies or to the supermarket degrading behaviour?

Is not being allowed to drive civilized behaviour?

Is not being allowed to go home for a visit till you accomplished something civilized behaviour?

What actually is civilized behaviour? By what and whose standards?

Maybe by some standards it isn't, but it's Sumo. Whoever entered this world knows what he got into, and those who don't usually drop out after a few months. Asa sure does. It is not a democracy. You have no right to voice your opinion. You have no right to go on a strike. You can't call your mama and ask her for help.

It's the way it is. This fact could be new to some fans and may cause them to lose interest in sumo. It does not, however, change the fact.

Sumo has its own rules, and they don't have to be written. Some of them may cause some of us great discomfort. It's up to us to individually decide if we can live with them, or if they are so draconian that we can't stand to follow this sport any longer.

Sumo is about all the above uncivilized rules. The NSK being omnipotent is an axiom. One does not question this. If one does, he misses the whole point, and great frustration will ensue.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Kintamayama

[XiaoTan 93]

I am considering the way he was treated by the directors. They complain that Asashoryu does not behave like a yokozuna: did they treat him like a yokozuna (I could even say: like a man), refusing to hear what he had to say ?

Why would they have to hear what he has to say? There was enough circumstantial evidence as was pointed out a few posts above. Apart from the fact that it wasn't really the first time that rules had been flouted.

What would have been the purpose of hearing Asashoryu? Since case appears to be not about the soccer game but the absence from the Jungyo.

- Do you think it would have good for Asashoryu trying to explain why he didn't want to participate in the Jungyo tour? I think that it wouldn't have been a good idea for Asashoryu to try to argue in front of the board, this would only have aroused more passion on both sides.

[Kintamayama 45,529]

Yokozuna Asashouryuu may be holding an "interview", possibly as soon as today, to apologize for his transgressions. He is being persuaded to do so by his shisho during their meetings yesterday and today. They met for an hour and a half yesterday, and Asa seemed to be getting over the initial shock. The plan is for recuperating in Japan, no talk of a Mongolia return any more. This will be the first time the yokozuna shows himself in public after the "sentencing". "OK, do that interview-I'm sending a tokoyama to do your hair", said Takasago. "Give me some more time, please", answered Asa. "I have failed to persuade him today (yesterday) but I will try again tomorrow(today)", said Takasago (Oyakata). "He needs a bit more persuading, that's all.. At the beginning he didn't say much, but eventually he opened up and conveyed his feelings", he added.

"There is the physical aspect and the mental aspect. I think going to the hospital will be best for him. His shisho agrees with this, and in any case, there is no chance he will be allowed to return to Mongolia at this point", said Kitanoumi rijicho.

Whatever..

Arriving at Asa's home:

Edited August 10, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

"Shoo, I won't like being an avatar picture! Noooooooooo!"

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Some of the oyakata & YDC wanted to shackle the yokozuna like this!

[Guest Malakikoen]

Some of the oyakata & YDC wanted to shackle the yokozuna like this!

(Sign of approval...) I think Kintamayama is right

"When you are in Rome, behave like a roman" means

in Japan these are the rules of the game, and Asa knows How to enjoy it

He should also know how to live with their rules.

MK

[paolo 0]

I would like to reassure everybody that I close here my considerations on the "adult and civilized behaviour", and I would like to thank all of those who have expressed their opinion on my posts. Allow me please just a last final and cumulative comment on the latest posts regarding the matter:

----------------------------------

..... He was in no way treated unfairly.....

Of course I fully disagree.

----------------------------------

..... Did You even read Nishi's reply before asking again? He already answered: ....

..... You're welcome to dismiss that code of conduct from a "civilized" point of view, but please don't put Your disagreement into the same questions again and again......

Nishinoshima had taken a sentence of mine out of the context and I explained why. Of course if he so wishes he can answer me how and when and how many times he likes. I do not think that it is very fair that another person scolds me about what I wrote about Nishinoshima's comments.

----------------------------------

......

The NSK being omnipotent is an axiom.....

I appreciate the long description that you gave and I cannot but agree that if one accepts all that it is his own business. The only sentence that I left above actually summarizes everything within few words. Let me only add for the last time that I was not referring to what is freely accepted (all those heavy conditions that you described), but to the way in which the decision of the punishment was taken.

----------------------------------

I am considering the way he was treated by the directors. They complain that Asashoryu does not behave like a yokozuna: did they treat him like a yokozuna (I could even say: like a man), refusing to hear what he had to say ?

Why would they have to hear what he has to say? There was enough circumstantial evidence as was pointed out a few posts above. Apart from the fact that it wasn't really the first time that rules had been flouted.

What would have been the purpose of hearing Asashoryu? Since case appears to be not about the soccer game but the absence from the Jungyo.

- Do you think it would have good for Asashoryu trying to explain why he didn't want to participate in the Jungyo tour? I think that it wouldn't have been a good idea for Asashoryu to try to argue in front of the board, this would only have aroused more passion on both sides.

At least one between you and me must have understood very little or nothing of what is going on and must have very strange ideas on how a justice whatever must be administered. It must be me. So forgive me. I apologize and I stop here.