Asagate: Takasago at fault or not?

[Washuyama 641]

"Somebody" needs to stop this media circus. Apparently Takasago can't... or won't. I think the only way Asa will be able to save any dignity is for these absurd "media moments" from Takasago to stop. I'm beginning to think Kitanoumi needs to step in and say/do something before it gets totally out of hand.

There's got to be somebody Asa respects enough to listen to since Takasago apprently isn't having any success. Or at least someone Takasago can get advice from. Maybe Azumazeki... He was the senior rikisi in Takasago-beya when the current Takasago was a shin deshi. And his being a foreigner might help as well... Just throwing out ideas, but this fiasco can't go on until January...

[paolo 0]

Kitanofuji's words have suddenly become a hot topic. He squarely put the blame on Takasago Oyakata's shoulders. Although he isn't a part of the NSK anymore, his word (ex-Takasago Ichimon and all) still has a lot of clout in NSK circles. Takasago oyakata is becoming increasingly isolated, and his standing as a riji seems to be in jeopardy. "It's deplorable. What I don't get is why he didn't order Asashouryuu back the minute he saw the soccer images. If he would have forced him back and made him apologize all this would not have happened. It's all Takasago's fault for not taking things into his hands from the start!!", he said.

Although he isn't with the Kyokai, he still carries influence, as the former shisho of Takasago Ichimon leaders Kokonoe and Hakkaku. Although Takasago Oyakata is also a riji, it's looking exceedingly difficult for him to be re-elected come January.

"No comment about everything", said Hakkaku Oyakata at the jungyo.

1. Criticizing is everyone's national sport. I mean: criticizing is the only activity that all men performs along their whole life and does not require a specific education in it ! Too easy, too pleasant, too full of satisfactions !!

2. Takasago and Takasago's faults. Takasago is trying to save what can be saved, but he is clearly new to a situation like this and he is just proceeding by trial and error ( more errors than trials, maybe...). Who knows what is the right thing to do ? It's easy to say: just go to Asashoryu and tell him to do this and to do that: what if he does not do it ? And if Asashoryu does not come come back, Takasago will lose a lot of money; and if he does not show that he can manage the situation he might also lose the Heya (could it be possible ?).

In my opinion the point is: does Asashoryu recognize Takasago as somebody he can have confidence in and he can trust ? The answer, if I understand correctly the issue, is NO. This can depend on their past relationship; on their being a Yokozuna and a Ozeki; on the gifts for Asashoryu's marriage of which Takasago wanted to have the main part; on the fact that they both know that Asashoryu's existence means a good amount of money for Takasago; and/or on a lot of other things. If Asashoryu really is in he condition that doctors say he is in ( and I do not see why should we doubt it), what he needs is a reference person to listen to. It is apparent by now that it cannot be Takasago, and Takasago himself appears to have realized it well: that is probably the reason why he invited or allowed the "manager", or "chief of fans", or whoever the guy is, to speak to Asashoryu. But in this case it seems that an authoritative person is needed: someone that could be seen as a "father". Paradoxally, if the Kyokai is interested in having Asashoryu back to work, and keeping of course the punishment as it is since it cannot be changed any more, the right person should and could be Kitanoumi himself !!

[Kintamayama 45,530]

2. Takasago and Takasago's faults. Takasago is trying to save what can be saved, but he is clearly new to a situation like this and he is just proceeding by trial and error ( more errors than trials, maybe...). Who knows what is the right thing to do ? It's easy to say: just go to Asashoryu and tell him to do this and to do that: what if he does not do it ? And if Asashoryu does not come come back, Takasago will lose a lot of money; and if he does not show that he can manage the situation he might also lose the Heya (could it be possible ?).

I'm pretty sure Kitanofuji means that it's Takasago's fault from the start, i.e. not having any clout over his deshi for all these years, culminating in this affair.

If Asashoryu really is in he condition that doctors say he is in ( and I do not see why should we doubt it), what he needs is a reference person to listen to. It is apparent by now that it cannot be Takasago, and Takasago himself appears to have realized it well: that is probably the reason why he invited or allowed the "manager", or "chief of fans", or whoever the guy is, to speak to Asashoryu.

He did no such thing-on the contrary, he was totally pissed that he intervened in their conversation, and even hinted the "regression" was his fault.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Kintamayama

[paolo 0]

He did no such thing-on the contrary, he was totally pissed that he intervened in their conversation, and even hinted the "regression" was his fault.

I understand. My God. This connect also to your following point :

Takasago seems to have lost his will to help, together with what's left of his dignity... "My next visit to Asashouryuu will come only after a medical diagnosis that he is better. If he is still ill, I will not be visiting him!", he declared....

So in the end Takasago gave up..... After all, is he really inadequate then ? Life is not made only of the money that you earn through other people, sometimes you have to earn it with blood and sweat and tears ....

[Kintamayama 45,530]

So in the end Takasago gave up..... After all, is he really inadequate then ? Life is not made only of the money that you earn through other people, sometimes you have to earn it with blood and sweat and tears ....

It's even worse. Takasago has explicitly said today he will not even hear of a diagnosis recommending Asa be allowed to recuperate in Mongolia. All three doctors recommended that. He was "warning" the fourth (now we understand there is no fourth for now..) to not reach that same conclusion.

As for not visiting Asa, what he is doing in reality is making sure the next time he visits Asa, he will come out of the house with an agreement to that interview. He probably understands he has lost enough face- I'd say he still has part of his left eye.

[paolo 0]

.... Takasago has explicitly said today he will not even hear of a diagnosis recommending Asa be allowed to recuperate in Mongolia. All three doctors recommended that. He was "warning" the fourth (now we understand there is no fourth for now..) to not reach that same conclusion.

First possibility: he clearly knows or understands that the Kyokai would not allow it. Second possibility: he is trying to show the Kyokai how strong a man he is, since HE will not even hear such a recommendation .... I never liked to see a boss leave his man alone, even less if this is done to try to save his own ass. Could this be the case ?

As for not visiting Asa, what he is doing in reality is making sure the next time he visits Asa, he will come out of the house with an agreement to that interview. He probably understands he has lost enough face- I'd say he still has part of his left eye.

I understand your point, but I continue to think that, Takasago's face apart, Sumo's world should do something to save the situation: I still do not understand what has Sumo to earn in dismissing Asashoryu or letting him fade away. What do you think of my idea of Kitanoumi taking care of the issue ? Possible or impossible ? Useful ? Stupid ? After all this is certainly an extraordinary situation. Dealing with it in a extraordinary way might be very intelligent....

[Kintamayama 45,530]

I understand your point, but I continue to think that, Takasago's face apart, Sumo's world should do something to save the situation: I still do not understand what has Sumo to earn in dismissing Asashoryu or letting him fade away. What do you think of my idea of Kitanoumi taking care of the issue ? Possible or impossible ? Useful ? Stupid ? After all this is certainly an extraordinary situation. Dealing with it in a extraordinary way might be very intelligent....

What we assumed was that Kitanoumi was actually trying to soften up the hardliners from the start, but failed. Maybe today some of the hardliners have softened a bit, but I find it very hard to believe any kind of "discount" will be given now. Kitanoumi will not decide against the "flow" made up of his peers and the YDC.

[paolo 0]

I understand your point, but I continue to think that, Takasago's face apart, Sumo's world should do something to save the situation: I still do not understand what has Sumo to earn in dismissing Asashoryu or letting him fade away. What do you think of my idea of Kitanoumi taking care of the issue ? Possible or impossible ? Useful ? Stupid ? After all this is certainly an extraordinary situation. Dealing with it in a extraordinary way might be very intelligent....

What we assumed was that Kitanoumi was actually trying to soften up the hardliners from the start, but failed. Maybe today some of the hardliners have softened a bit, but I find it very hard to believe any kind of "discount" will be given now. Kitanoumi will not decide against the "flow" made up of his peers and the YDC.

Actually I was implying something even deeper, more difficult, and (in my opinion of course) much more intelligent in the long run: in a word, Kitanoumi himself, representing the Kyokai, could VISIT Asashoryu and explain him that the punishment was due (no discount at all must and can be given), but that the Kyokai EXPECTS him to pay for it and then COME BACK to Sumo as a true Yokozuna. If this is the truth, of course; but otherwise we must admit that everything is over, virtually nothing can be done, and all these words and opinions that we are exchanging on this forum and anywhere are useless.... It has never been done, I know; but how many times has a Yokozuna been so harshly punished ? and how many times did they have a Yokozuna on the edge, or perhaps well inside, a nervous breakdown ? I happen to think that this could be the positive shock that is needed in Asashoryu's case; and after all, isn'it also the Kyokai's interest to come out of this case in the less expensive way ?

Please do not be horrified, it's my nature: in general terms I like to see people that try to find a way to solve the problem, much more than speak for hours about the thousand philosophical reasons why the problem cannot be solved ....

[Jonosuke 28]

Someone was asking if the Kyokai understands there is a problem.

The Kyokai does understand there is a problem. They even know what the problem is. But their protocol is to have Asashoryu's shisho deal with him first. Unfortunately their problem is that Asahoryu's shisho is totally impotent to do anything about it, spinning wheels, running around in circles. Not only he appears to have no idea, no clue but he is behaving as if he is totally helpless about the whole thing.

His lack of leadership is absolutely glaring. I have no doubt his fellow oyakata have lost all confidence in him to resolve this situation. The Kyokai directors will need to step in sooner or later not to have this fiasco continue for too long. They will need to get Asashoryu to a hospital and have him treated accordingly so he can recover from the current illness.

Regardless of whether Asashoryu can regain his former invincibility as yokozuna or not, the Kyokai has at least a responsibility to get him back on his feet and regain his health back. It has nothing to do with their punishment possibly causing the current malaise. When one of their members, be it a rikishi, oyakata or gyoji, falls ill, the Kyokai has a social and organizational responsibility to ensure they are properly treated and get taken care of to get back to full health. They have done it with former yokozuna Taiho, ozeki Takanonami or any other rikishi falling ill so they should with Asashoryu.

As much as I feel Asashoryu failed to live up to his duty as yokozuna responsively, the major blame should be placed on the shoulders of his shisho Takasago oyakata.

As a teenager from Mongolia arriving to a Japanese school and practically having no understanding whatsover of Japanese culture, especially the Ozumo traditions and customs, the oyakata should have personally taken it upon himself to guide and instruct Asashoryu. Ozumo is not simply about growing stronger as a competitor but also nurturing mental disciplines as well as learning how to interact with others and to grow as a responsible member of the society.

The Kyokai's clinic teaches new recruits things like how to handle oneself on the dohyo, the history of sumo and caligraphy but not enough about the spiritual aspect of sumo that has handed down throughout its history. Especially those who have achieved yokozuna should know about the way of sumo as articulated by yokozuna like Futabayama and Taiho.

Takasago oyakata failed miserably in all of the above. His lack of leadership in this matter is mind boggling. He failed to educate Asashoryu properly and responsively and instead let him roam free as much as he pleases. Takasago oyakata cannot escape any criticism heaped upon him by media and other oyakata.

And as if all this wasn't enough, he now basically gave up on trying to help out his deshi who is virtually his creation. He is saying he will not be meeting Asashoryu at this point as he will not be able to help him anyway as he is not a doctor. He has thrown in a towel. Obviously there must have been a severe breakdown in their shisho-deshi relationship for an oyakata to behave this way. If this was late Sadogatake oyakata, such siuation as this is unimaginable. Even normally flippant current Kokonoe oyakata cried with his deshi, Chiyotaikai one time. The current Shikoroyama oyakata hid from Homasho about him breaking his ribs and continued with training sessions.

It is simply unbelievable to see Takasago oyakata's lack of caring and compassion towards his best deshi. I've read stories after stories about how oyakata cared so deeply about their deshi that even the rikishi's actual parents wondered who was the parent.

I still firmly believe this is not about the Kyokai against Asashoryu or ozumo vs Asashoryu but it is about his shisho and him which is the root of the problem. Regardless of how this yokozuna failed to live up to some of the standards of yokozuna, before he is a yokozuna, he is a member of the Kyokai, rikishi and human being. When he can least help himself, the man who should be extending a helping hand and warm embrace deserted him. For that I cannot help feeling nothing but a deep empathy for him. He is there in a darkened room feeling all alone, feeling as if he has no friends in the world.

First let him regain his health back by showing we as sumo fans care about him and express our sincere desire for him to recover. And when he regains his former self then we can ask him to strive to the conduct befitting the highest rank rikishi of Ozumo.

[Kintamayama 45,530]

When he can least help himself, the man who should be extending a helping hand and warm embrace deserted him. For that I cannot help feeling nothing but a deep empathy for him. He is there in a darkened room feeling all alone, feeling as if he has no friends in the world.

I think Takasago tried his best, but Asa has no respect whatsoever for him, and doesn't want to see him or hear from him. Takasago went to him three times, but was virtually ignored. I bet Asa blames Takasago for not being able to "hold the fort" in the face of the wave of anger against him, like he did for the last 5 years. To me, it seems like Asa just doesn't want anything to do with him at this point.

Of course, all this didn't fall off a tree-it's deeply rooted in their past dealings as Jonosuke pointed out.

I just think Takasago has no real say in this matter and in their relationship as well.

And I still think there is more to this affair than meets the eye.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Kintamayama

[obinishiki 0]

While i do understand the urge to lay almost all the blame on Takasago Oyakata, he seems really unable to cope with the current problem or problems per se, i just cannot see how a full grown 27-year-old man isn't to be held responsible for his own actions.

I mean we don't talk about a mentally ill unemployed homeless person, but a very successful martial arts athlete ( that appears to be his self-image) who hasn't been able to swallow his precious pride, make a public statement about him understanding the public anger and deal with the punishment like an adult (should do). It's not like he is supposed to live among the lepers.

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj 0]

While i do understand the urge to lay almost all the blame on Takasago Oyakata, he seems really unable to cope with the current problem or problems per se, i just cannot see how a full grown 27-year-old man isn't to be held responsible for his own actions.

I mean we don't talk about a mentally ill unemployed homeless person, but a very successful martial arts athlete ( that appears to be his self-image) who hasn't been able to swallow his precious pride, make a public statement about him understanding the public anger and deal with the punishment like an adult (should do). It's not like he is supposed to live among the lepers.

Don't you understand it from cultural point of view. They don't swallow their pride ( even it is empty pride) unless more powerful one force them to do so.

Why not NSC swallow its pride and admit their mistake doing rush decision over video clip which cut out of context. As wise old people why not they set an example for apologising for their mistake, Asashoryu eventually will follow.

Or Asa will go home w/o permission and never come back to sumo. Pride is more important when one feels it right

Edited August 17, 2007 by Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj