Doitsuyama 1,190 Posted December 13, 2007 Thanks to Gans-san I have all hoshitori tables from 1934.05 until now as they were published in sumo magazines. While I have entered a fair share of full banzuke by now (85 basho from 1974.11 until 1988.11), there still are 163 basho of full banzuke waiting. This might take a while, or indeed never get fully done by me alone, so I wanted to have at least some numbers of division sizes to be able to see how they developed in time. Since others might be interested in that as well, here is a table with them. The "Total" column is without Shin-Jo and Mae-zumo as those are possibly incomplete (most certainly for mae-zumo) and more reflecting the number of rikishi really on the banzuke (with the exception of rikishi competing off banzuke, like makushita tsukedashi). Basho M J Ms Sd Jd Jk Sj Mz Total 193405 40 26 46 72 78 17 3 279 193501 40 26 49 69 63 16 4 263 193505 40 26 48 69 64 19 6 266 193601 41 29 54 67 57 23 3 271 193605 42 28 56 75 58 26 6 285 193701 42 28 60 64 75 38 4 307 193705 44 28 66 72 80 36 15 326 193801 44 33 77 81 81 65 11 381 193805 46 30 72 99 99 62 11 408 193901 45 30 84 110 125 81 9 475 193905 46 32 98 117 151 80 11 524 194001 49 32 97 128 163 90 10 559 194005 49 33 80 95 174 74 11 505 194101 51 32 84 118 176 73 12 534 194105 54 31 88 134 177 70 11 554 194201 54 31 78 116 172 58 8 509 194205 52 30 96 120 171 59 11 528 194301 48 30 96 131 156 65 8 526 194305 50 30 103 115 153 51 10 502 194401 49 31 103 100 141 47 5 471 194405 50 32 82 91 134 21 3 410 194411 50 33 78 91 112 31 395 194506 50 32 57 74 69 12 294 194511 49 34 53 62 39 0 4 237 194611 47 31 84 67 47 0 3 276 194706 50 31 65 56 45 18 23 265 194711 50 31 59 45 48 24 18 257 194805 52 31 60 44 52 19 11 10 258 194810 52 31 56 43 59 20 11 10 261 194901 52 31 51 58 63 20 4 1 275 194905 52 33 53 61 57 9 9 11 265 194910 52 31 53 62 43 14 8 10 255 195001 52 31 54 73 48 15 7 10 273 195005 54 31 57 72 45 12 9 15 271 195009 54 30 59 76 47 17 10 9 283 195101 53 32 57 76 55 13 9 12 286 195105 53 32 60 76 51 19 12 15 291 195109 52 32 58 85 54 16 13 15 297 195201 52 34 64 88 61 19 9 10 318 195205 52 34 72 93 61 9 17 19 321 195209 53 36 71 97 77 8 21 25 342 195301 52 38 69 111 75 30 17 24 375 195303 52 40 74 114 95 23 11 18 398 195305 50 41 80 120 109 15 21 26 415 195309 51 40 82 126 119 25 24 26 443 195401 49 43 86 128 127 36 18 20 469 195403 53 42 89 141 134 24 10 19 483 195405 51 45 93 142 135 23 15 22 489 195409 52 45 98 144 147 27 33 38 513 195501 50 44 99 152 159 53 31 36 557 195503 50 44 107 168 181 45 27 595 195505 52 42 116 181 187 46 23 34 624 195509 52 44 121 187 206 38 24 28 648 195601 54 45 125 195 205 48 672 195603 56 46 136 189 221 26 6 674 195605 56 46 138 203 207 62 12 712 195609 55 46 151 201 225 55 12 733 195701 57 44 151 213 230 60 10 755 195703 58 46 154 214 252 65 11 789 195705 58 46 162 219 264 50 10 799 195709 58 46 161 196 269 40 10 770 195711 58 46 159 195 260 23 5 741 195801 55 48 162 200 252 11 728 195803 54 48 164 198 239 26 4 729 195805 54 48 166 201 230 36 8 735 195807 54 48 166 197 241 39 15 745 195809 54 48 169 200 256 46 6 773 195811 50 48 166 208 257 41 6 770 195901 51 46 166 208 263 42 5 776 195903 49 45 171 204 257 49 8 775 195905 48 43 175 208 266 67 11 807 195907 47 40 164 204 277 83 8 815 195909 46 39 166 209 303 69 7 832 195911 44 40 164 204 302 47 3 801 196001 43 36 170 203 305 43 800 196003 43 36 169 205 274 41 3 768 196005 43 36 171 209 263 38 5 760 196007 41 38 170 211 252 49 8 761 196009 41 38 174 221 241 59 3 774 196011 41 38 170 223 227 55 3 754 196101 41 38 175 230 215 50 749 196103 41 36 178 228 228 46 757 196105 41 36 178 230 193 58 736 196107 41 36 184 235 174 69 739 196109 41 36 190 235 171 74 747 196111 41 36 189 239 177 57 739 196201 41 36 189 237 158 56 717 196203 41 36 185 196 190 47 695 196205 41 36 184 192 193 56 702 196207 41 36 186 191 196 59 709 196209 41 36 189 190 207 55 718 196211 41 36 189 187 205 38 696 196301 41 36 190 189 209 45 710 196303 41 36 190 183 211 44 705 196305 41 36 190 190 210 52 719 196307 41 36 191 196 192 67 723 196309 41 36 191 195 214 73 750 196311 41 36 191 191 211 67 737 196401 40 36 195 186 237 49 743 196403 40 36 193 185 248 47 749 196405 40 36 194 186 256 59 771 196407 40 36 195 187 264 55 777 196409 40 36 196 188 279 60 799 196411 40 36 194 189 267 61 787 196501 40 36 193 190 277 55 791 196503 40 36 191 192 270 51 780 196505 40 36 193 197 274 47 787 196507 40 36 196 197 257 55 781 196509 40 36 195 201 256 68 796 196511 40 36 199 200 245 54 774 196601 40 36 204 201 238 53 772 196603 40 36 202 200 229 48 755 196605 40 36 197 198 226 61 758 196607 40 36 197 203 197 71 744 196609 40 36 198 207 201 66 748 196611 40 36 197 208 190 50 721 196701 40 36 200 214 187 43 720 196703 40 36 196 214 184 29 699 196705 34 26 120 200 260 64 704 196707 34 26 120 195 248 62 685 196709 34 26 120 199 260 46 685 196711 34 26 120 198 250 39 667 196801 34 26 120 200 253 31 664 196803 34 26 120 196 238 28 642 196805 34 26 120 198 232 26 636 196807 34 26 120 198 216 31 625 196809 34 26 119 200 218 26 623 196811 34 26 117 195 197 25 594 196901 34 25 119 199 180 25 582 196903 34 26 120 194 164 26 564 196905 34 26 120 199 163 23 565 196907 34 26 118 199 147 52 576 196909 34 26 119 198 170 22 569 196911 34 26 119 196 170 24 569 197001 34 26 121 200 162 32 575 197003 34 26 119 185 169 24 557 197005 34 26 120 175 176 35 566 197007 34 26 119 168 183 32 562 197009 34 26 120 160 192 26 558 197011 34 26 120 158 185 39 562 197101 34 26 120 160 200 24 564 197103 34 26 120 158 189 31 558 197105 34 26 120 159 190 31 560 197107 34 26 120 162 194 25 561 197109 34 26 120 158 205 36 579 197111 34 26 119 160 208 26 573 197201 35 26 121 158 222 28 590 197203 36 26 120 160 223 24 589 197205 35 25 120 160 222 25 587 197207 35 26 119 159 201 37 577 197209 37 25 119 159 210 20 570 197211 37 25 119 158 192 33 564 197301 36 25 122 160 185 28 6 556 197303 36 26 120 160 176 28 546 197305 37 25 119 159 183 73 11 596 197307 37 26 121 160 214 32 6 590 197309 36 26 120 160 204 34 14 580 197311 36 26 120 160 208 24 6 574 197401 36 26 120 159 212 18 11 571 197403 36 26 122 159 202 24 569 197405 36 26 120 160 215 59 616 197407 36 26 119 160 235 34 4 610 197409 36 26 120 159 240 17 598 197411 36 26 120 156 218 36 13 592 197501 36 26 120 160 202 46 14 590 197503 36 26 121 159 200 43 72 585 197505 36 26 120 160 226 76 19 644 197507 36 26 120 160 260 37 8 639 197509 36 26 120 160 251 38 11 631 197511 36 27 120 159 218 62 17 622 197601 36 26 120 160 220 55 12 617 197603 36 26 121 160 220 47 81 610 197605 36 26 120 180 223 85 13 670 197607 36 26 120 179 259 40 8 660 197609 36 26 120 180 244 44 10 650 197611 36 26 117 177 233 44 9 633 197701 36 26 120 179 222 38 4 621 197703 36 26 119 180 211 34 74 606 197705 36 26 119 179 216 78 18 654 197707 36 26 120 180 245 41 7 648 197709 36 25 119 180 232 47 12 639 197711 36 26 120 179 219 40 14 620 197801 36 26 120 180 208 40 7 610 197803 36 26 120 177 200 34 75 593 197805 36 26 120 180 206 80 18 648 197807 36 26 120 179 243 33 9 637 197809 36 26 121 179 223 49 10 634 197811 36 26 120 180 200 44 9 606 197901 36 26 120 180 193 40 10 595 197903 36 26 121 180 188 35 107 586 197905 36 26 120 180 210 112 22 684 197907 38 22 120 181 232 92 14 685 197909 38 24 121 180 244 74 10 681 197911 35 26 120 180 239 60 9 660 198001 37 25 120 180 236 44 12 642 198003 36 26 121 180 236 37 102 636 198005 36 26 120 180 244 119 23 725 198007 36 26 118 180 265 83 14 708 198009 36 26 120 180 262 74 14 698 198011 36 26 121 181 256 63 13 683 198101 35 27 121 181 241 73 17 678 198103 35 26 123 181 233 68 112 666 198105 35 26 120 180 259 135 23 755 198107 36 26 120 179 301 82 13 744 198109 35 26 120 181 293 77 9 732 198111 35 26 120 180 289 64 7 714 198201 36 26 120 180 262 75 8 699 198203 37 26 122 180 241 75 100 681 198205 37 26 121 180 291 110 16 765 198207 38 26 120 180 318 65 10 747 198209 38 26 120 179 310 71 11 744 198211 37 26 121 180 277 82 5 723 198301 38 26 122 179 267 72 7 704 198303 35 26 121 180 271 64 96 697 198305 36 26 120 181 303 113 18 779 198307 37 26 120 180 304 106 10 773 198309 37 26 120 181 288 111 11 763 198311 37 26 120 180 284 104 7 751 198401 38 26 121 200 258 95 13 738 198403 38 26 121 201 256 82 96 724 198405 38 26 120 200 284 124 25 792 198407 38 26 120 200 280 118 10 782 198409 38 26 120 200 282 100 18 766 198411 38 26 120 200 270 93 7 747 198501 37 26 120 200 278 78 12 739 198503 38 26 122 200 286 63 114 735 198505 38 26 120 200 324 124 13 832 198507 38 26 120 200 308 110 10 802 198509 38 26 120 200 308 104 9 796 198511 38 26 120 200 290 98 12 772 198601 38 26 120 200 288 93 11 765 198603 37 26 120 200 280 88 116 751 198605 37 26 120 200 328 137 17 848 198607 37 26 120 200 316 132 9 831 198609 38 26 120 200 304 124 12 812 198611 38 26 120 200 284 106 7 774 198701 38 26 120 200 276 91 9 751 198703 38 26 121 200 260 79 124 724 198705 38 26 120 200 318 125 28 827 198707 38 26 120 200 320 122 7 826 198709 37 26 120 200 312 110 14 805 198711 38 26 120 200 300 102 6 786 198801 38 26 121 200 288 90 15 763 198803 38 26 120 200 272 82 98 738 198805 38 26 120 200 314 115 37 813 198807 38 26 120 200 316 118 8 818 198809 38 26 120 200 304 110 8 798 198811 38 26 120 200 292 96 7 772 198901 38 26 121 201 279 84 14 749 198903 38 26 120 200 272 75 98 731 198905 38 26 120 200 312 105 14 801 198907 38 26 120 200 308 98 10 790 198909 38 26 120 200 300 93 10 777 198911 38 26 120 200 290 86 3 760 199001 38 26 121 200 280 77 8 742 199003 38 26 121 200 272 73 84 730 199005 38 26 121 200 304 106 21 795 199007 38 26 120 200 296 102 7 782 199009 38 26 120 200 284 90 13 758 199011 38 26 120 200 268 82 11 734 199101 40 26 120 200 252 80 7 718 199103 40 26 119 200 242 69 91 696 199105 40 26 120 200 288 97 19 771 199107 40 26 120 200 283 98 9 767 199109 40 26 120 200 280 88 13 754 199111 40 26 120 200 272 76 16 734 199201 40 26 124 200 272 77 7 739 199203 40 26 124 200 260 71 149 721 199205 40 26 121 200 310 153 37 850 199207 40 26 120 200 324 139 9 849 199209 40 26 120 200 328 120 17 834 199211 40 26 120 200 328 115 12 829 199301 40 26 122 200 324 106 21 818 199303 40 26 122 200 316 102 143 806 199305 40 26 120 200 384 146 32 916 199307 40 26 120 200 390 144 8 920 199309 40 26 120 200 388 119 7 893 199311 40 26 120 200 365 114 11 865 199401 40 26 123 200 360 117 21 866 199403 40 26 121 200 360 115 110 862 199405 40 26 120 200 420 137 14 943 199407 40 26 120 200 410 126 5 922 199409 40 26 120 200 400 128 3 914 199411 40 26 119 200 370 114 18 869 199501 40 26 120 200 364 112 18 862 199503 40 26 121 200 352 107 94 846 199505 40 26 120 200 388 137 12 911 199507 40 26 120 200 382 127 8 895 199509 40 26 120 200 380 124 14 890 199511 40 26 122 200 368 120 8 876 199601 40 26 124 200 356 112 10 858 199603 40 26 122 200 350 108 103 846 199605 40 26 120 200 400 140 14 926 199607 40 26 120 200 392 128 10 906 199609 40 26 120 200 376 124 6 886 199611 40 26 120 200 364 108 4 858 199701 40 26 120 200 358 100 17 844 199703 40 26 124 200 358 100 83 848 199705 40 26 120 200 384 138 18 908 199707 40 26 120 200 378 129 8 893 199709 40 26 120 200 374 115 8 875 199711 40 26 120 200 354 100 5 840 199801 40 26 120 200 340 93 15 819 199803 40 26 124 200 324 91 59 805 199805 40 26 120 200 348 107 10 841 199807 40 26 121 200 336 101 5 824 199809 40 26 120 200 322 99 10 807 199811 40 26 120 200 308 95 10 789 199901 40 26 121 200 298 90 13 775 199903 40 26 123 200 290 80 101 759 199905 40 26 120 200 340 119 11 845 199907 40 26 120 200 332 104 7 822 199909 40 26 120 200 320 99 11 805 199911 40 26 120 200 308 94 5 788 200001 40 26 120 200 300 83 10 769 200003 40 26 120 200 280 79 69 745 200005 40 26 121 200 315 89 14 791 200007 40 26 121 200 298 87 6 772 200009 40 26 120 200 276 88 2 750 200011 40 26 120 200 260 74 10 720 200101 40 26 120 200 256 74 12 716 200103 40 26 120 200 245 69 69 700 200105 40 26 120 200 266 99 16 751 200107 40 26 120 200 250 100 5 736 200109 40 26 121 200 244 87 12 718 200111 40 26 120 200 240 76 16 702 200201 40 26 120 200 246 73 12 705 200203 40 26 121 200 231 74 51 692 200205 40 26 121 200 243 101 17 731 200207 40 26 120 200 234 97 7 717 200209 40 26 120 200 234 89 8 709 200211 40 26 120 200 224 82 7 692 200301 40 26 121 200 220 68 15 675 200303 40 26 120 200 212 68 64 666 200305 40 26 120 200 241 84 21 711 200307 40 26 120 200 240 80 9 706 200309 40 26 120 200 240 80 4 706 200311 40 26 120 200 230 77 13 693 200401 42 28 120 200 228 77 26 695 200403 42 28 122 200 224 78 76 694 200405 42 28 121 200 270 91 12 752 200407 42 28 120 200 266 88 3 744 200409 42 28 120 200 254 84 6 728 200411 42 28 120 200 240 80 9 710 200501 42 28 120 200 238 80 14 708 200503 42 28 121 200 235 76 70 702 200505 42 28 120 200 268 95 15 753 200507 42 28 120 200 266 95 6 751 200509 42 28 120 200 258 87 11 735 200511 42 28 120 200 250 82 8 722 200601 42 28 120 200 248 75 9 713 200603 42 28 120 200 238 70 61 698 200605 42 28 121 200 268 86 10 745 200607 42 28 120 200 257 84 3 731 200609 42 28 120 200 251 74 6 715 200611 42 28 120 200 240 73 13 703 200701 42 28 121 200 240 72 8 703 200703 42 28 121 200 232 71 72 694 200705 42 28 120 200 270 89 12 749 200707 42 28 120 200 260 84 5 734 200709 42 28 120 200 256 77 7 723 200711 41 28 120 200 250 73 4 712 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,190 Posted December 13, 2007 Now I wanted to add what I have found out about the mysterious "Shin-Jo" division while analyzing the old stuff. I'm pretty sure that (at least for the time frame I have hoshitori tables) rikishi in "Shin-Jo" just are mae-zumo rikishi, but mae-zumo itself was done quite differently back then, with more bouts. After the first three mae-zumo bouts the mae-zumo rikishi got separated - those with 2-1 and 3-0 got immediately "promoted" to shin-jo, very likely also competing against jonokuchi rikishi while the rikishi with 1-2 and 0-3 stay in mae-zumo. All new rikishi get on the banzuke in the next basho, but shin-jo rikishi might even get immediately to jonidan with a good shin-jo record. The shin-jo record is only the score after the first three bouts and already counts for the career wins and losses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HenryK 38 Posted December 13, 2007 Interesting. Hence total Ozumo participation peaked in 1994, and has since than fallen back to the levels of the early 1980s. All the variation is in the lower division below Sd (unsurprisingly). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,448 Posted December 13, 2007 Thanks! ;-) That 800->550 drop in numbers from 1965 to 1970 sure looks ominous...and people think sumo has recruiting problems now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HenryK 38 Posted December 13, 2007 Thanks! ;-) That 800->550 drop in numbers from 1965 to 1970 sure looks ominous...and people think sumo has recruiting problems now. This discrete drop in the Makushita division in 1967 from almost 200 to 120 must have been a major thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,448 Posted December 13, 2007 This discrete drop in the Makushita division in 1967 from almost 200 to 120 must have been a major thing. Same moment they eliminated more than 20% of the sekitori spots, too (I didn't even realize that timing until just now actually)...I've speculated elsewhere that it may have been a financially-driven decision, but I really have no idea. Anybody? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,448 Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) A couple of quick'n'dirty diagrams... For 1935 to 1972 I used the January basho numbers (except 1945 to 1948 where they're from the preceding November), then from 1973 I used Natsu basho to capture the shift to the modern recruiting style with mostly Haru basho debuts. And the number of stables (blue line) and the average number of rikishi per stable (pink line): I can see why the Kyokai thinks there are too many heya right now; the average was quite stable (no pun intended) from about 1970 to the late 1980s, and then again on a slightly lower level for the next ten years but the number of heya hasn't really tracked the declining number of rikishi over the last ten years or so. Edited December 13, 2007 by Asashosakari 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 815 Posted December 13, 2007 This discrete drop in the Makushita division in 1967 from almost 200 to 120 must have been a major thing. Same moment they eliminated more than 20% of the sekitori spots, too (I didn't even realize that timing until just now actually)...I've speculated elsewhere that it may have been a financially-driven decision, but I really have no idea. Anybody? I believe they abolished the rule that rikishi from the same ichimon could not fight each other at around that time as well. That way they could cut down on the number of sekitori by increasing the number of possible matches between the remaining ones. I'm sure the reasoning must have been financial. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ossetian Yokozuna 1 Posted December 14, 2007 It is interesting. May be this picture is correlate with some economic parametas of JAPAN in period 1934-2007 ( life level, stock parametas, ets )? ( The influence of the World War II is obvious. ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,448 Posted December 14, 2007 The shin-jo record is only the score after the first three bouts and already counts for the career wins and losses. Is that the reason that it was sometimes said that mae-zumo records used to count for the career records (i.e. people confused mae-zumo and shin-jo competition), or is that an unconnected issue and mae-zumo results really did count in the past? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,190 Posted December 14, 2007 The shin-jo record is only the score after the first three bouts and already counts for the career wins and losses. Is that the reason that it was sometimes said that mae-zumo records used to count for the career records (i.e. people confused mae-zumo and shin-jo competition), or is that an unconnected issue and mae-zumo results really did count in the past? That's a possibility, but I really don't know too much about that before 1934. I think it was even more different before that (with an honchu division), so anything is possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
