TochiHenkaZuma

[Jesinofuji 11]

This is very unentertaining. As an Ozeki who still has a winning record, Tochiazuma, kadoban or not, should not not resort to the tactic he used today and has become notorious for using. ;-)

I think he's going to lose fans for this. Basho after Basho he's resorting to Henka more than once. He had quite a few henkas on his trip to Ozeki. And he resorted to Henka to win his first and only Yusho, stealing the Ketteisen from Chiotaikai. I'd like to see Tochihenkazuma try to win using more impressive Sumo, which he does have to ability to do, at least until the tourney starts looking desparate.

[Gernobono 466]

there goes the henka-dscussion once again

in my opinion this was no henka....miyabiyama just collapsed like dejima did yesterday....maybe this is some strange musashigawa-beya trainingstyle....kakizoe obviously couldn't get it straight and produced an unsuccessful henka against yotsukasa...i guess he mistunderstood musashigawa-oyakatas advice to stumble to the floor without touching the oponnent...

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

If it was a henka, at least it was pretty well concealed. You can check for yourself at http://www.banzuke.com/~juryoika/200309/

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

This is very unentertaining.  As an Ozeki who still has a winning record, Tochiazuma, kadoban or not, should not not resort to the tactic he used today and has become notorious for using.  ;-)

I think he's going to lose fans for this.  Basho after Basho he's resorting to Henka more than once.  He had quite a few henkas on his trip to Ozeki.  And he resorted to Henka to win his first and only Yusho, stealing the Ketteisen from Chiotaikai.  I'd like to see Tochihenkazuma try to win using more impressive Sumo, which he does have to ability to do, at least until the tourney starts looking desparate.

You don

Edited September 14, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Jesinofuji 11]

Tochihenkazuma never crossed the white line. The tachiai was foreward left, not straight on at all.

The definition of henka (according to http://www.sumotalk.com/glossary.htm ) is

Henka  Side-stepping your opponent's initial charge at the tachi-ai.

Henka is sidestepping your opponents initial charge at the tachiai. You mean you actually think Tochihenkazuma met Miyabiyama head on today? To deny that todays match was a henka is about as silly as denying that birds fly; it just doesn't make sense.

And even if Chiotaikai has pulled henkas, its a rare occourance. Tochi does them all the time, way too much. Its not the type of Sumo needs from its top rankers when popularity is still below average.

;-)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Tochihenkazuma never crossed the white line.  The tachiai was foreward left, not straight on at all. 

The definition of henka (according to http://www.sumotalk.com/glossary.htm ) is

Henka

Edited September 14, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[tominishiki 0]

This is very unentertaining.  As an Ozeki who still has a winning record, Tochiazuma, kadoban or not, should not not resort to the tactic he used today and has become notorious for using.  (Clapping wildly...)

I think he's going to lose fans for this.  Basho after Basho he's resorting to Henka more than once.  He had quite a few henkas on his trip to Ozeki.  And he resorted to Henka to win his first and only Yusho, stealing the Ketteisen from Chiotaikai.  I'd like to see Tochihenkazuma try to win using more impressive Sumo, which he does have to ability to do, at least until the tourney starts looking desparate.

i dont have problem with the henka win this is a tactic that also chiyo and kaio and all the rikishi used that so what so wrong if you want to win so just win in the bout hwo cares what technic? why did you dont wrote about last basho henka of chiyo shoes on? ;-)

Edited September 14, 2003 by tominishiki

[Jesinofuji 11]

Tochihenkazuma never crossed the white line.  The tachiai was foreward left, not straight on at all. 

The definition of henka (according to http://www.sumotalk.com/glossary.htm ) is

Henka  Side-stepping your opponent's initial charge at the tachi-ai.

Henka is sidestepping your opponents initial charge at the tachiai. You mean you actually think Tochihenkazuma met Miyabiyama head on today? To deny that todays match was a henka is about as silly as denying that birds fly; it just doesn't make sense.

And even if Chiotaikai has pulled henkas, its a rare occourance. Tochi does them all the time, way too much. Its not the type of Sumo needs from its top rankers when popularity is still below average.

;-)

Oh. I see you are a real Tochiazuma fan who was lost because of today

[Asashosakari 19,320]

in my opinion this was no henka....miyabiyama just collapsed like dejima did yesterday

I agree...Miyabiyama was practically on his knees even before he hit Tochiazuma. Sure, 'azuma made a slight side-step, but not any more than you see several times each day. In my opinion it looks like Miyabiyama's head hit Tochiazuma in the chest/shoulder and deflected him further to the side because Miya was coming in so low (just look at Tochiazuma's hands, they're barely off the ground but almost at Miyabiyama's shoulder level when they hit).

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

When I was young and stupid, I didn't mind an occasional henka. Now when I am old and stupid, I hate henka. I'm no fan of Tochiazuma either. Frankly, I have no idea why someone supports him.

From what I understand about the definition of henka, Tochiazuma certainly didn't commit one today. He met (and this is the deciding factor, isn't it?) Miyabiyama in the middle of dohyo before stepping aside. Miya has no one but himself to blame for his loss. He was badly prepared and paid the price. In my mind there's nothing wrong from taking advantage of your opponent's lack of balance. Refusing to clash with him in tachiai is the thing I despise.

Ostriches don't fly.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I'm no fan of Tochiazuma either. Frankly, I have no idea why someone supports him.

Neither do I. Tochiazuma-fan must be one of the most stupid things to be there is. I will quit immediately and not bother nice and peaceful shoryu-fans.

Edited September 14, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Actually, I have even less ideas about why anyone would support Asashoryu. No offence meant at Tochiazuma. His popularity just baffles me.

[Mmikasazuma 12]

I AM a Tochiazuma fan. I have my reasons, and I have the right to support him without beeing ridikuled.

This forum let us tell our opinions about anything (including sumo), and good to comment on our differences, too. Only it can hurt (as you see) if we don't respect each-other's feelings behind the words. Being a fan is especially an emotional issue.

;-)

I really hope, that Yubiquitoyama won't quit us, and won't quit defending Tochi, because we would really miss his superior knowledge, and I would miss a good advocat of Tochi's case, too.

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

Well, I also am a long-standing Tochiazuma fan, like Stefan and many others. The way this topic gets mangled here indeed is barely acceptable and I can understand Stefan's reaction.

I also like Asashoryu and Aminishiki for pretty much the same reason. All are able to win with an arsenal of outstanding defensive and offensive moves most rikishi don't have. Tochiazuma especially is able to react to opponents moves in a speed which throws the spectator off. Musoyama for example always had great difficulty to come through with oshi-moves despite greater physical strength which made for some really spectacular bouts between those two with mostly Tochiazuma winning. I'm also sure a lot of those "henka" where Tochiazuma barely sidesteps (and which by definition aren't henka) just appear this way because Tochiazuma recognizes a lot earlier than any spectator that the opponent's tachi-ai is way too low and adjusts accordingly. Why face a low tachi-ai head-on when it's much better to stand still, recept the opponent and let him fall down? How many "henka" from Tochiazuma can you report where the opponents tachi-ai was good?

This is my take on this topic, and if you watch Aminishiki or Asashoryu closely you will also detect those moments where the reactions to opponents actions are faster than seemingly possible.

;-)

[Kashunowaka 300]

I have posted my reactions to this and other recent threads in subforum "Public feedback".

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

But todays bout was even more notorious that Chiyotaikai's in Nagoya

I don't think a bout can become notorious in a day or two -- takes longer than that. I don't think this bout will ever become notorious, simply because its significance is very low. Especially since it wasn't a henka... B-)

As for Tochiazuma -- I'm neutral. I don't mind him. For all I know he's just doing everything to keep getting ozeki pay until retiring, and that's fine by me. Opponents should know this when preparing to fight him and adjust accordingly.

Henkas in general I dislike, but I recognize their (small, limited) place, and that nearly every top rikishi has used henka here and their, sometimes with legitimate excuses (fighting while injured), sometimes without. (Riding an ATV...)

[Rijicho 6]

(Referring to the earlier post I did under the shikona of Kotoseiya.)

My intention wasn't (and never has been) to ridicule a rikishi or his supporters. I probably should have been more careful in my selection of words. I don't mind Asashoryu or Asanowaka (or Juan Pablo Montoya, Michael Schumacher, John McEnroe etc.) supporters flaunting the success of their respective idols as long as it doesn't denigrate their opponents and their supporters thereof.

I find disturbing a tendency to support one's opinions by claiming something "obvious" or "undisputable" when most clearly it isn't for a large part of the sumo community. I dislike intensively the habit to negatively support someone by calling his adversaries with names. I'm first to admit I sometimes fall in the same trap myself. I really shouldn't do that. No one should but I certainly shouldn't.

For example, I have nothing against Tochiazuma as such. He's probably a likable fellow and all that but I personally have never found anything in him to support. If someone else finds, great. No problem with that.

Asashoryu I do find a veritable idiot; the kind of person I would never want to have anything to do with, no matter how much his traits might have been exaggerated by the media. Then again his sumo is superb and I can respect that. I can understand other people see him differently and deem him worthy of admiration. No problem about that either unless his admiration resorts to calling his adversaries chokers or mental weaklings or whatever.

I probably shouldn't have used these words either. There probably aren't good words to use but I rest assured you know what I try to say.

Thank you. Let's all try to cool down. There's a basho going on.

Edited September 14, 2003 by Rijicho

[Kintamayama 45,116]

I am and always was a Tochiazuma fan, and yet, I am also a Shouryuu fan.. Being a fan means you like someone, regardless of what someone else says. Liking someone and disliking someone else is part of every sport. I like beating my guy's drum, and if I can get an extra poke at KaioU, what can be better?

Come on- most of us know each other for a very long time- we know it's not personal...

I will be bored stiff here if I can't say bad things about KaioU..

I know, I know..people get offended sometimes , but it's all part of life. I also get offended a lot, so I lay low for a while and come back.

Come on Yubi- life here will not be the same without you.. Life without ANY of you will not be the same here, even if you happen to be stubborn fans of the U-man..

Just a few weeks ago you were convincing me of the same thing..

Go Shouryuu! Go Tochiazuma! Go Kotobeppu!! Go Ichinoya!! Go fish!!

Oh yes, and I like henkas. Now, and when i was young. A lot. If you're stupid enough to fall in that trap time and again you deserve to lose, whoever you are. It's a legal move. LEGAL MOVE!! You have a problem with that? Watch cricket!! Whoever feels like using it, good for him. A well executed henka is a work of art. The face of the guy going down is even artier.. (Riding an ATV...) B-) (so no one gets offended..)

Edited September 14, 2003 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,320]

I am and always was a Tochiazuma fan, and yet, I am also a Shouryuu fan.. Being a fan means you like someone, regardless of what someone else says. Liking someone and disliking someone else is part of every sport. I like beating my guy's drum, and if I can get an extra poke at

Edited September 15, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Fujisan 533]

Im not gonna say too much about Tochiazuma or henkas,Ive said it elsewhere but this I do wanna say-Since everyone elses walking on egg shells after Yubis "Im leaving" post-

CHILL OUT YUBI-Stop taking things so ruddy personal,If you wanna leave fine but we aint gonna change our opinions just for you.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Im not gonna say too much about Tochiazuma or henkas,Ive said it elsewhere but this I do wanna say-Since everyone elses walking on egg shells after Yubis "Im leaving" post-

CHILL OUT YUBI-Stop taking things so ruddy personal,If you wanna leave fine but we aint gonna change our opinions just for you.

I

Edited September 15, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Gaijinohana 0]

Im not gonna say too much about Tochiazuma or henkas,Ive said it elsewhere but this I do wanna say-Since everyone elses walking on egg shells after Yubis "Im leaving" post-

CHILL OUT YUBI-Stop taking things so ruddy personal,If you wanna leave fine but we aint gonna change our opinions just for you.

I agree 100% with Fujisan's comments. I don't post often in the forums. I mainly read them to see experienced sumo fans' reactions to the matches to help me make my picks in my sumo game, but sometimes the posts get to the point of embarrassing to even wade through when people get so upset.

Every now and then I feel like reminding everyone that it's just a game and everybody's opinion is just that....an opinion....(including mine (Being mellow...) )

[Fujisan 533]

Well thats a first-

All my time on these forums I admit I've had a few arguments but thats the first time anyones ever taken an hiatus because of me.

Well Im sorry hes gone but Im not appologising or retracting what I said-

Oh and thanks Mychair but I fear you will be in the minority.

Edited September 15, 2003 by Fujisan

[Fujisan 533]

Oh and-

I may get worked up about things occassionally but not so worked up,I take my ball and go home.

[Zentoryu 154]

Wow, nothing can stir it up like the old "H" word...

It's just like the good ole days on the SML... (Riding an ATV...)