Creatine - doping or not?

[Mark Buckton 1]

yes?

no?

buggered if it will let me add Qs in proper form? Can any of the Mods help out please?

Anyway, please read here first to see where this Q came from.

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry136766

Edited February 23, 2008 by Randomitsuki

[Randomitsuki 2,843]

buggered if it will let me add Qs in proper form? Can any of the Mods help out please?

Done (Shaking head...) .

[Kintamayama 45,527]

There should be an "I haven't the foggiest" option.

I haven't the foggiest.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Mark Buckton 1]

buggered if it will let me add Qs in proper form? Can any of the Mods help out please?

Done :-) .

cheers R.

Mark

[Mark Buckton 1]

There should be an "I haven't the foggiest" option.

I haven't the foggiest.

shirley you jest - how difficult is it if you read the link? Shirley?

:-O Hang on, knock at the door! Stuff to flush down the bog.................................................... :-)

[Kintamayama 45,527]

There should be an "I haven't the foggiest" option.

I haven't the foggiest.

shirley you jest - how difficult is it if you read the link? Shirley?

:-O Hang on, knock at the door! Stuff to flush down the bog.................................................... :-)

I've read the link, but know from experience that one link to one story with one view can never make me reach a conclusion. If I lived my life reading only one side of an argument, I shouldn't be alive today.

I like to see what the other side says, and even then, I'm not sure I'd have an established and firm opinion , especially of something I have not heard anything about prior to this. A third possibility should definitely have been thrown in there. And a fourth.

It just wouldn't be serious, and we are serious people here.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

According to WADA using creatine is not considered doping, so who am I to argue? Whether it should be, is another question. Sein und sollen.

[Azumashida 1]

According to WADA using creatine is not considered doping, so who am I to argue? Whether it should be, is another question. Sein und sollen.

Exactly. By WADA definition creatine is not doping, although I think it's forbidden by some federations (seem to remember that at some point the French rugby federation prohibited it, considering it a "drug-masking product").

Makes me think of a recent case in Finland: two US basketball players have just been fired for testing positive for cannabis, which for some reason is considered doping. Just had a discussion with a friend who said that cannabis may actually help in basketball because one needs to be composed when shooting. I don't really buy this argument since obviously basketball also requires quite a bit of aggression and the two guys who were caught didn't exactly look like exclusive 3-point shooter role players... Anyway, bottomline is, by definition testing positive for cannabis is considered doping, no matter how idiotic that classification may be.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Azumaryu

[Mark Buckton 1]

Exactly. By WADA definition creatine is not doping, although I think it's forbidden by some federations (seem to remember that at some point the French rugby federation prohibited it, considering it a "drug-masking product").

the French rugger team look like they needed the big C yesterday - good game but they were largely outpowered. From the first minute I have avoided the 'masking' possibilities as I am not a doctor and am only arguing this non-use of creatine on moral / fair play grounds. I felt the implication was there that creatine users could be using it as a possible 'smoke screen' were the French rugby authorites (and presumably the NCAA in the USA, correct on this. Of course they have more qualified individuals than I to make their judgements so there must be some cause for concern in their minds but as I said - the question is creatine use and that being considered doping.

Also, Azumaryu, I think your 'signature' about the journey being of more significance than the destination is very good - and well related to this topic. Sumo is dominated by the same mentality in the eyes of so so so many Japanese and true foreign fans of the sport - with shiroboshi sometimes a 'second' to the way the bout is fought - fair and level.

Actually, had a thought last night watching Arsenal getting their botty slapped in the last minute by Birmingham - what / when was the football game that saw a penalty awarded (in error) and the taker deliberately missing it - as he knew it had been given by mistake? Don't even remember the country / league but that team, that man - admirable all - even though the 'rules' would have given him the 'right' to score and presumably take a giant step towards his team being the victors.

That is what this whole creatine is doping thing is about. How would any of us feel 10 years down the line knowing we, as middleweights weighing 114.9 kg thanks to the effects of out 'booster' friend 'C' were stood on a dohyo facing an 85.5kg man from a relatively poor nation with no decent sporting infrastructure or personal fund to help him 'beef-up' a la your WADA legal powder and persoanl buddy 'C'?

Neither of us were very good technique wise and the only thing that won 'me' the bout was 'my' extra weight and the smaller foe's inability to push me out.

(think middleweights in the international tourney's are ranked 85-115 kg FWIW)

According to WADA using creatine is not considered doping, so who am I to argue? .

Odd reasoning this I felt, as it removes the need for individual thought and reasoning.

but then you say

Whether it should be, is another question. Sein und sollen

So, let me ask, do you think it should be?

A friend said something simple last night which went something like this - 'anybody putting drugs into their body for anything other than medicinal reasons is a fool' and I agree completely. Not rocket science or hair splitting legalities on which agency recognises what - a simple human reaction.

Perhaps the biggest Q we should ask ourselves in this though is the old one concerning our respective mothers.

Were you to return home from the SWC a champ or even silver medal winner etc, to the congratulations of your family when, your elated Mum asked you - 'you didn't use anything did you son? Not like those cyclists or that runner before the last Olympics?' Do you focus on the 'things' used by the cyclists or the runner and annswer in the negative - ignoring the word 'anything' - or do you look your Mum in the eye and say - I use a powder that enables me to get bigger than I would get naturally - but it isn't illegal'?

[sekihiryu 51]

creatine doping?? no way. Its not in the same league as roids. its a common over the counter non prescription supplement.

Is Ibuprofen doping? diclofenac? cortisone? where do you draw the line?

Personally I thinks its the height of absurdity that some one can lose a gold medal for taking a cold medicine with pseudoephadrine. There is no absolutely no camparision to likes of Big Bad Ben Johnson who was doped up to his eyeballs on the strongest steriods around and deserved to be busted. Its madness.........I can almost see it........sir you are disqualified for breathing oxygen, dont you know its performance enhancing?

[ I use a powder that enables me to get bigger than I would get naturally - but it isn't illegal'?

by that logic many things fit that bill.

know this stuff? its a drink (using aminos synthesized from hornets) that gives you improved stamina you couldnt get naturally - not illegal either.

Edited February 24, 2008 by sekihiryu

[Jejima 1,414]

I use a powder that enables me to get bigger than I would get naturally

Okay, putting my tongue firmly in my cheek....

I've heard a rumour that some lighter-weight rikishi are encouraged to bulk-up by 'using alcohol' - usually taken orally, administered in the generic substance commonly referred to as 'beer'.

This drug can help its users to put on weight a lot more quickly than those who do not use this method. In fact the weight gain is often referred to as a 'beer belly'. The 'beer belly' gives the rikishi a low-centre of gravity, that can give them an edge in their bouts.

However, in numerous clinical trials, (and anecdotal evidence), this drug has been shown to have detrimental health effects on long-term users.

Perhaps alcohol should be banned too?

[Mark Buckton 1]

Please try and keep things accurate. There is absolutely no evidence or suggestion that creatine is a drug-masking product. None

Nishi, this is the pot calling the kettle black I'm afraid. The issue of doping revolves around the simple factor shown in the dictionary reference a while ago:

The Oxford English dictionary defines 'dope' (noun and verb) as many things but pertaining to this issue - a substance given to a horse or greyhound, or taken by an athlete to affect performance

A friend said something simple last night which went something like this - 'anybody putting drugs into their body for anything other than medicinal reasons is a fool' and I agree completely.

Which just shows that you still won't open your eyes to the fact that creatine is not a drug.

Have I called creatine a drug? Doping is he issue at hand. See ref above.

In fact I'd be willing to bet you have more chance of failing a doping test than I do.

me too - I take medicine daily for a condition discovered 18 months ago and will do so for the rest of my life. That said - I would not face a doping test as I am not out to gain a sporting edge by using the medicine - only to stay healthy.

I know the ingredients of everything I put in my body. Do you? Do you take cold medicine? Ever drink so-called "genki-drinks"?

sadly, because of the condition I have - pretty much everything now. No to genki drinks (little more than an alcohol shot) )and cold medicine though - I have written in one of the papers on the medicine side of things in Tokyo - around 98/99 as the MHLW actually asked docs to stop prescribing bacteria fighting drugs to combat colds.

I've heard a rumour that some lighter-weight rikishi are encouraged to bulk-up by 'using alcohol' - usually taken orally, administered in the generic substance commonly referred to as 'beer'

A substance around for at least 4-6000 years Jezz - tongue in cheek or not. We've all tried it and it has a longer history than recorded humanity. Part of human life and rikishi having a beer at night are not looking solely towards it giving them the edge Nishi is after in using creatine.

creatine doping?? no way. Its madness.........I can almost see it........sir you are disqualified for breathing oxygen, dont you know its performance enhancing?

presume you mean purified / pure O2 there Seki? Not the 'breathing' we do just as part of life / on instinct etc?

Sorry but yourself and Nishi, Jezz with a swollen cheek, have a tendency in this debate to try and confuse naturally available patterns of behaviour / food consumption and now breathing!! with the deliberate goal of winning in a sporting event by taking un-natural(ly) high concentrations of a substance you would never use otherwise.

This IS doping - trying to repeatedly 'mask' that leads to other suspicions.

Nish has admitted he uses creatine and whilst it is not illegal, I admire his honesty, and perhaps the very best description it could be given after reading the OE language clarification on what constitues doping as is quoted above, is 'legal doping'

[Jejima 1,414]

Continuing to play devil's advocate....

I've heard a rumour that some lighter-weight rikishi are encouraged to bulk-up by 'using alcohol' - usually taken orally, administered in the generic substance commonly referred to as 'beer'

A substance around for at least 4-6000 years Jezz - tongue in cheek or not.

It does not stop it from being a drug. Nor does that stop it from having the effects of bulking one up.

I believe cocaine has been around that long too (Caffeine too, for that matter.). It has only recently been made illegal, and also has performance enhancing effects.

We've all tried it

Apart from those who have not. Indeed for many, it would be considered a sin to try it.

and it has a longer history than recorded humanity.

I am not sure if the above statement is correct. I understand that the ancient Egyptians were the first to brew beer - and they recorded their history.

Part of human life...

For some, but not all.

...and rikishi having a beer at night are not looking solely towards it giving them the edge.

(My italics)

Indeed not all. But I understand that some are encouraged to drink *more* beer than they would have done normally, in order to aid weight gain.

Sorry but yourself and Nishi, Jezz with a swollen cheek, have a tendency in this debate....

A tendency? I have made one prior comment to this debate!

....to try and confuse naturally available patterns of behaviour / food consumption and now breathing!!

Well as my comment related to alcohol intake, which is neither food consumption, nor breathing, I presume that this must be a 'natural pattern of behaviour'. I would argue otherwise.

My previous post was meant to be taken in good humour, but it seems to have hit a nerve. Apologies.

As to 'creatine', I only heard about it for the first time here. As it is not currently banned, and my knowledge about it is limited, I will bow to the better judgement of the scientists that have okayed its use for the time being.

Whether or not using creatine is 'doping' is a different matter. By, the definition that you provide, I guess it is semantically.

But by the same definition, so is my example of excessive beer drinking for the primary purpose of gaining weight (any pleasurable side-affects are purely accidental), as I am led to understand that some oyakatas encourage some of their 'lighter' charges so to do.

Fact 1: Drinking large amounts of beer does lead to weight gain.

Fact 2: Drinking beer is not essential to life. (:-) - It just appears to be to some.)

Fact 3: Not everyone drinks large amounts of beer.

Fact 4: Weight (and a low centre of gravity) are key factors that effect a rikishi's performance.

Fact 5: Alcohol is a drug.

Fact 6: Excessive alcohol drinking is not good for your health.

Fact 7: Alcohol is not currently banned (I believe) by WADA or similar organisations.

Edit: Some of the sloppy grammar tidied up a bit.

Edited February 24, 2008 by Jejima

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

According to WADA using creatine is not considered doping, so who am I to argue? .

Odd reasoning this I felt, as it removes the need for individual thought and reasoning.

Well, as I have no medical education myself, I'm left to trust the doctors. I've understood WADA medical personnel have given (a lot of?) thought to creatine and found out it's OK. I succumb to authorities daily. I'm a bit daft in this respect.

So, let me ask, do you think it should be?

No freaking idea. No medical knowledge.

[Azumashida 1]

I think it's forbidden ..............a "drug-masking product".

Please try and keep things accurate. The debate so far has unfortunately been filled with unscientific claims and misdirection. There is absolutely no evidence or suggestion that creatine is a drug-masking product. None

Please try and keep your quotes (and critiques) accurate. (Sigh...)

What I should have done, if anything, is not write "I think" and "seem to remember", since a simple Google search (in French) clearly confirms that creatine was indeed prohibited by the French rugby federation, which is exactly what I wrote although your extremely selective quote of my text cuts it in a way that makes it misleading.

As for the "drug-masking" allegation, if you read what I wrote carefully you can see that it's the French federation that I "blamed" for considering it a "drug-masking" product. Another quick Google search (also in French) easily confirms that this belief that it's a good drug-masking product is very widespread in France and was somehow connected to the rugby federation's decision a few years back - FWIW I think that now creatine is allowed in French rugby, although I'm not completely sure about that.

Obviously I made no allegation of my own that it is a good drug-masking product because I wouldn't be competent on that. Another quick search suggests that there are many sites (defending creatine) denying it and many others corroborating it. According to these latter views (see e.g. this page in English), creatinine (a breakdown product of creatine) can trigger a false reading of drug testing. Again, I'm not competent and not particularly fascinated by this topic, so I'll leave it at these (admittedly rather superficial) web searches.

Edited February 24, 2008 by Azumaryu

[Washuyama 641]

I've heard a rumour that some lighter-weight rikishi are encouraged to bulk-up by 'using alcohol' - usually taken orally, administered in the generic substance commonly referred to as 'beer'

I've tried this method of weight-gain. Seemed to work for my brother, but alas, not for me. After six months of imbibing "liberal amounts" daily, all I increased was my fondness for Country & Western music and sumotori-sized women. None of which seem like the result I was aiming for. (Sigh...)

[Gusoyama 104]

That is what this whole creatine is doping thing is about. How would any of us feel 10 years down the line knowing we, as middleweights weighing 114.9 kg thanks to the effects of out 'booster' friend 'C' were stood on a dohyo facing an 85.5kg man from a relatively poor nation with no decent sporting infrastructure or personal fund to help him 'beef-up' a la your WADA legal powder and persoanl buddy 'C'

I don't think there's any difference between having top-flight gym equipment and creatine. And considering I don't think that having top flight gym equipment is doping, no, I don't think creatine is doping. Does it give an advantage? Undoubtedly. But not an illegal one. If it was an illegal/prescription substance, then yes, I say ban it.

[Mark Buckton 1]

I do see where you, and everyone is coming from on this 'until it is illegal' argument Gusoyama, but have always, be it right or wrong, preferred to make up my own mind.

That might be laughed at but humanity has often learned too late what is bad / dangerous / not worth doing / just plain wrong - - - after years and years of seeing something deemed 'legal / part of societal norms' as OK or acceptable. Shakespeare used cocaine you know! 'twas not illegal in the time of the bard!

Think the gym equipment is an odd comparison BTW - gym equipment doesn't change your internal physiology enabling work / performance others would be incapable of without it.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Creatine restores the fast ATP-like energy reservoirs in muscle cells so it enables faster recovery of the muscle cell energy reservoirs. It doesn't have anabolic effect as such. It also binds water which causes a slight weight gain especially at first. Creatine is not considered dangerous unless consumed in massive amounts.

EPO or testosterone are both naturally existing substances in human body but yet are considered doping by almost everyone. Hence I don't think the fact that creatine is naturally existing product could be the reason to eliminate it from being classified as doping.

I see creatine as quite harmless substance which doesn't cause health problems (rare exceptions excluded), which doesn't cause unnatural hormone shifts in the body and which isn't doping. Just one part of "food supplements" in my opinion.

I did try creatine once for few months and it did help with the recovery process when I was doing quite a lot of different sports at the same time but I never found it that amazing and there is always the placebo effect.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Kaikitsune Makoto

[Jejima 1,414]

I do see where you, and everyone is coming from on this 'until it is illegal' argument Gusoyama...

This is not my argument. But perhaps I am not 'everyone'.

My argument is that I know very little about it, and have no inclination to do any research about it. In these instances it is wise to listen to what the people who have done the research etc have to say on the matter, with a healthy sceptism. It seems the general opinion that creatine is a) safe to be used (with the rider that it is not abused, but that can be said about many things). b) does not give an unfair edge to athletes in competition. In time scientists may do more tests and experiments and change their opinions. But the current accepted opinion is that creatine is a-okay.

Now the sceptism part..... Let's say that creatine is really bad etc. What do the scientists ghave to gain by saying otherwise....? I can't think of anything, unless they are in league with the creatine companies. This is of course a possibility, but comparing it to the possibility that creatine is in fact 'alright', it would seem to be the least likely.

Therefore at this moment of time I see no reason to be against it. However, I am flexible enough with my opinions to be able to change them if, at a later date, I see compelling evidence that argues diferrently.

but have always, be it right or wrong, preferred to make up my own mind.

This is your perogative. I note that you concede that you may sometimes be wrong. But I would suggest that it is always best for one to keep an open mind, and for one to be willing to change one's opinions where necessary. I would also suggest that sometimes 'hunches' or 'gut feelings' are wrong, and that we must be willing to analyse and accept information by experts who have taken time to make their studies.

That might be laughed at but humanity has often learned too late what is bad / dangerous / not worth doing / just plain wrong - - - after years and years of seeing something deemed 'legal / part of societal norms' as OK or acceptable.

This smacks of 'Big Brother' to me, which I am not really comfortable with.

Shakespeare used cocaine you know! 'twas not illegal in the time of the bard!

There is no evidence about Shakespeare using cocaine (please see Bill Bryson's recent and well-researched book, 'Shakespeare - The World as Stage'). In fact there is precious little evidence about anything in Shakespeare's life. But I do remember from a visit I made to Stratford-upon-Avon, that at the home of his father-in-law, they discovered some clay pipes with drug residue on them (I can't recall whether it was cocaine or mary-jane) dating from Shakespeare era - but no DNA testing was done :-)

(More interestingly Harrods used to sell a hamper during World War I for families to send to their sons in the trenches that included (amongst many other treats) cocaine AND heroin).

But your point being?

a) That cocaine is only 'dangerous' now, and not back then when it was 'legal'?

b) That it has always been 'dangerous', and so Elizabethans were all something or other?

c) That as Shakespeare was a 'drug cheat', we should disregard all of his works as being 'drug-assisted'?

Think the gym equipment is an odd comparison BTW - gym equipment doesn't change your internal physiology enabling work / performance others would be incapable of without it.

Really?

Edit: Punctuation and a little grammar tidied up a bit.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Jejima

[Gusoyama 104]

Think the gym equipment is an odd comparison BTW - gym equipment doesn't change your internal physiology enabling work / performance others would be incapable of without it.

gym equipment allows for specific muscle group targeting and more efficient work, and definitely gives and advantage above those who just go out in the forest and run or lift logs or whatever you consider to be "natural". As for making my own decisions, I do that every day. I choose not to do non-illegal things, and I choose to do illegal things every day. And vice versa. Would I use creatine? Probably not, but if I was doing some sports and needed to repair myself more quickly, I might do that.

That might be laughed at but humanity has often learned too late what is bad / dangerous / not worth doing / just plain wrong

The opposite can also be said. Humanity has often learned that something it thought was bad/dangerous/not worth doing/just plain wrong was perfectly fine.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Gusoyama

[Bealzbob 0]

The term 'doping' traditionally tends to imply a degree of (il)legality.

On one hand I'm not sure creatine is illegal so in that sense it is not doping. On the otherhand it builds up muscle mass - or allows the user to do it in quick time - so it could be construed as being a (means towards a) performance enhancer and, as such, an advantage against those who do not take it, but if not illegal then perhaps not doping.

Of course there are serious health issues with taking creatine supplements, namely that it builds up all muscles - and the heart is a muscle too - and one that I dare say you don't want 'bulking up' and making the inner-workings of the heart more restricted. Could cause a nasty case of 'death'.

Yes creatine is made naturally in the body, but then so is testosterone, and you can't go pumping yourself full of that in most sports (not sure if (ama)sumo is the same).

So I think I'll have to go with Kintamayama's 'haven't the foggiest' option :)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Of course there are serious health issues with taking creatine supplements, namely that it builds up all muscles - and the heart is a muscle too - and one that I dare say you don't want 'bulking up' and making the inner-workings of the heart more restricted. Could cause a nasty case of 'death'.

This is not very accurate. Creatine doesn't build muscle mass in unnatural ways. It doesn't have direct effect on muscle mass at all. Many athletes have very big heart (rowers, bicyclists especially) due to training but their heart muscle fibres are functional and hence don't restrict the "inner workings" of the heart nor do they cause scar tissue which would expose the heart muscle to potentially fatal arhytmia whereas steroids can easily cause pathological growth which is fundamentally different at cellular level than natural growth. Creatine doesn't cause any muscle to grow on pathological pathway, it just enables to some degree faster energy restoration of muscle cell. It doesn't work on protein build up in anabolical way like roids do. It is biochemically illogical to say creatine is bad for heart.

[Sakana 46]

I won't argue "hard" about medicinal effects or else, just give my mind.

Only thing I considerate as 'legal' is training : keiko, footing, etc. Add some things to help this training, I considerate it as 'illegal'. The same thing to me than 'EPO' in cyclism, or else. If you are doing a sport, a martial art (considered as sport), you follow the rule : training without potions or else.

In sum

[Shimpu 0]

Obviously creatine isn't any form of doping. It's a supplement. All amateur bodybuilder's federations accept this specific (I'm not talking about pros like IFBB because they do tests only against diuretics). I ate few packets myself - it isn't any secret weapon or something... I'm sure all top rikishi use real stuff like our good old polish Omnadren, Metanabol or even Anapolon (Anadrol 50 equivalent). You can't regenerate quickly without steroids. Injuries are part of sumo... Enough said.

Edited March 9, 2008 by Shimpu