tate/fuku-tate yobidashi/gyoji question

[Danjinoumi 9]

I learn something new about sumo every day ... today, I learned that the second in command yobidashi/gyoji are called fuku-tate yobidashi/gyoji, respectively.

I did see from an old Jonosuke post archived on banzuke.com that there can be more than one fuku-tate yobidashi, but as far as I know there is only one tate gyoji, so I assume that means there is also only one tate yobidashi, right?

My real question is: does the fuku-tate yobidashi/gyoji ever announce/referee the final match of the day, or is that always reserved for the tate yobidashi/gyoji?

Edited February 27, 2008 by Danjinoumi

[Asashosakari 19,213]

Not really on point to your question, but I believe the term "fuku-tate gyoji" had a slightly different meaning than you assume. The tate gyoji position traditionally consisted of two people, Kimura Shonosuke and Shikimori Inosuke. When Tokyo and Osaka merged, the highest Osaka gyoji (Kimura Tamanosuke) was also made a tate gyoji. That lasted until 1951 when the fuku-tate gyoji position was created and the then-Kimura Tamanosuke (the 13th) was classified as such (a demotion, more or less), along with a second gyoji who had previously been a sanyaku-kaku gyoji.

The whole arrangement didn't last long; when the mandatory retirement age was introduced for gyoji with the Hatsu 1960 basho, the fuku-tate gyoji position was eliminated again.

[Faustonowaka 121]

Not really on topic, but isn' t the current Kimura Shonosuke very tall for a gyoji? He even seems to be even taller than Hakuho.

[Danjinoumi 9]

Thanks for the tidbit of information, Asashosakari. It didn't really answer my question, but it was interesting nonetheless.

I suppose my question, in a nutshell, is: does the TATE-gyoji ALWAYS referee the final match, and the TATE-yobidashi ALWAYS announce the final match?

[Asashosakari 19,213]

I suppose my question, in a nutshell, is: does the TATE-gyoji ALWAYS referee the final match, and the TATE-yobidashi ALWAYS announce the final match?

Part of what I was getting at is that there isn't "the" tate-gyoji, there are two of them.

At any rate, looking at the Japanese-language torikumi from January (Day 1 ... Day 15), it was in fact handled that way: Kimura Shonosuke and tate-yobidashi Hideo did the final bout, and Shikimori Inosuke and fuku-tate-yobidashi Takuro did the two bouts prior to that.

I'm fairly sure it's always handled that way (at least these days), but what complicates things on occasion is that the respective highest rank may not be filled for a given basho. There was no Kimura Shonosuke in March 2006 (I forget why), and as far as I can tell there was no tate-yobidashi from September 2003 to November 2007, presumably because the current holder (Hideo) was still rather young at just 53 years when the previous tate-yobidashi retired.

(I wonder how those big age gaps came about...the previous tate-yobidashi Yasuo was born in 1938, Hideo in 1949, and the current fuku-tate Takuro in 1957. They're usually much more tightly clustered, both yobidashi and gyoji.)

Edit: Spoke too soon...looking at last November, the pattern was the same for the gyoji (last bout Kimura Shonosuke, previous two Shikimori Inosuke), but the yobidashi were scheduled differently, with both Hideo and Takuro doing two bouts each. I presume it partly depends on how many makuuchi-kaku and sanyaku-kaku gyoji/yobidashi are available for each tournament. But as for the basic question you were asking: Yes, the Kimura Shonosuke / tate-yobidashi combo always does the final bout if both positions are filled at the time, though at least the tate-yobidashi may also do bouts prior to that (I believe Kimura Shonosuke always only does the final one).

Edited February 28, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Danjinoumi 9]

Thanks again, Asashosakari. I was under the impression that under the current rules there was only one "tate" gyoji at a time.

I also forgot that the NSK website lists the gyoji and yobidashi for each match. Very useful!

I see that Hideo is now the tate-yobidashi and Takuro the fuku-tate-yobidashi (according to the NSK website).

Just out of curiosity, is there an archive that has info on current and former yobidashi and gyoji (even if it's in Japanese)? I'm wondering how you knew that there was "no tate-yobidashi from September 2003 to November 2007" without looking at each year/basho individually.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Danjinoumi

[Asashosakari 19,213]

Just out of curiosity, is there an archive that has info on current and former yobidashi and gyoji (even if it's in Japanese)? I'm wondering how you knew that there was "no tate-yobidashi from September 2003 to November 2007" without looking at each year/basho individually.

Here you go. The gyoji data goes back quite a bit, the yobidashi data only to 1994.

Additionally, for the history of the Kimura Shonosuke and Shikimori Inosuke positions I recommend the respective Wikipedia pages, since the historical data is a little better structured there than on the aforementioned site (which has both thrown into a single "tate-gyoji" section).

Edited February 28, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

I smell a Sumopedia article... (HINT! HINT!) (Sign of disapproval...)

[Danjinoumi 9]

Great links! Exactly what I was looking for, plus a good excuse to work on my Japanese reading skills as a bonus.

Thanks again (errr ... for the third time (Sign of disapproval...) )

[Kuroyama 715]

I smell a Sumopedia article... (HINT! HINT!) ;-)

Well, I have no Japanese to speak of, but I'm sure Babelfish can be of help here. Let's see here. I think the second paragraph explains exactly why there was no Kimura Shonosuke at the 2006 Haru basho:

Siyounosuke's Kimura attacking name condition, presently, has passed Inosuke type Mori, Siyounosuke of tip generation retiring, it has meant when it has become vacancy. Because of this, when Siyounosuke Inosuke retires simultaneously, as for the professional sumo referee of the following case after attacking name doing Inosuke once, attacking name Siyounosuke it is possible at only the next place to do, the Siyounosuke absent place occurs. This kind of thing occurred recently at 2006 March place.

There. Perfectly clear. (Sign of disapproval...)

Edited February 28, 2008 by Kuroyama