Nagoya Basho Viewing

[Shomishuu 0]

Curiously enough, just a few basho ago (in March, I think) the main complaint wasn't so much that all the video viewers were costing him money, but that they weren't contributing anything to the rest of the forum (duh, most probably don't speak much French) and were only doing hit&run visits in the video section. I didn't figure that going for-pay was gonna be the solution to that, but hey, whatever floats their boat.

In any case, my moral standards aren't high enough to preclude me from paying.

Well I guess that also describes me, at least for the next week or so since I'm supposed to 'report' on the proceedings for SFM and I'll be on the road during this time. Since I don't speak French and am severely tech challenged, what exactly do you do (I do have a Paypal account)? Do you have to donate every day or only once per basho? Do you put in any amount you want? Also, I haven't even figured out how to see ANY of the bouts for free - the site recognizes me ok just like always but I keep clicking everything in site and no video comes up. (I dunno...) (I dunno...) (I dunno...) It's such a bummer being cyber illiterate!! (Blowing up furiously...) (Neener, neener...) (Bart...)

[Fay 1,677]

I must commit I was a bit shocked by reading about a donation for the videos. I'm sure Info-sumo doesn't want to make a profit with it, but nevertheless it's quite annoying.

A lot of forum members spend a lot of energy in looking for news in the papers, translating, collecting data, pics .................. Many have their own websites they have to pay for. I always thought they enjoy what they are doing, enjoy to share what they can offer. If everyone here puts up a collecting box, we soon could close the forum.

[ilovesumo 12]

I must commit I was a bit shocked by reading about a donation for the videos. I'm sure Info-sumo doesn't want to make a profit with it, but nevertheless it's quite annoying.

A lot of forum members spend a lot of energy in looking for news in the papers, translating, collecting data, pics .................. Many have their own websites they have to pay for. I always thought they enjoy what they are doing, enjoy to share what they can offer. If everyone here puts up a collecting box, we soon could close the forum.

Same opinion.

The world sux enough without that.

[Guest sumob0t]

If anyone has access to that french site's videos they is a way for them to download the videos. I would really like to see these videos, as I am sure we all would, so if you could please pm and we can work something out.

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

I get the impression that too many people take info-sumo's service for granted. He's by no way obliged to feed us with our "daily fix" (as some of the more demanding members put it). Don't like to pay? Don't watch! Easy as that. But don't act as if he cheated you of something you're entitled to get.

[hidenohana 0]

I get the impression that too many people take info-sumo's service for granted. He's by no way obliged to feed us with our "daily fix" (as some of the more demanding members put it). Don't like to pay? Don't watch! Easy as that. But don't act as if he cheated you of something you're entitled to get.

Agree totally.Any moral indignation or sense of entitlement here is out of order.

I think we've been spoiled by the easy access to sumo videos over the years-first Dale's site,then info-sumo and toyasuko.

(We British fans have the Eurosport non-coverage to deal with too.)

Still.... (Blowing up furiously...)

Edited July 14, 2008 by hidenohana

[Sokkenaiyama 81]

Not only the British have had to deal with Eurosport's non-coverage this entire year, it was the whole Europe. Eurosport stopped broadcasting sumo since December 2007.

I've been relying on the info-sumo videos for the past year and a half or so, so I could write my comments, and the decision took me completely by surprise, but I guess it's their right to do what they want. I'd like to thank info-sumo for all the time they took to upload the stuff.

[Takemi 0]

Here is a "cam" version of day 2- nagoya basho, osh and hoku:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBPXf1cGm6I

If you check the rest of the videos this guy have uploaded you can find some high rank matches of a given basho day.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Takemi

[Takemi 0]

Here is another "cam" version day 2 - nagoya basho, baruto and goeido:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Yc7gy__ZU

Edit: maybe this is wievable on info-sumo, my bad.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Takemi

[Guest sumob0t]

well, those cams are better than nothing! haha, thanks takemi! i really appreciate it!

[kaiguma 0]

I'd like to weigh in on the so-called info-sumo "problem." The only problem is with people who make false assumptions on profitability and fail to discern the differences between the cost of bandwidth and the cost of personal time... pricesless, ne?

False assumption #1: info-sumo.net is selling the videos.

It is a donation. They give no specified price, though there may at some time be a minimum for full video, depending on the success of the unmonitored donation system. It is annual (not sure if by calendar year or date of donation). There is no evidence that profit is involved. I can only guess that 99% of us have no idea of Info-sumo's financial situation, either in maintaining the site or in his personal life. What if this is his only viable option for keeping the service available? What if otherwise he feels forced to shut down?

***The only argument against with a shred of viability is that this increases the chance of being reported and having himself shut down involuntarily. [in fact, I really wish we were not discussing this here on forum, for reasons I probably don't need to specify.] There are certainly disputes about international copyright law and the use of media for "news" or vlogging jounalism. It is a deep argument that will never be solved without case-specific litigation... but I-S has been very careful not to use any NHK proprietary logos, typeface, graphics, charts, etc. He rarely provides pre-bout commentary, and generally provides post-bout only for select bouts with replays. He has even stopped posting the news segments. So I think if it came down to a lawsuit, and I pray it never does, he has a pretty good case in an international court. He is not ripping the entire broadcast and making it available, and he makes no profit from the venture. He is also the only comprehensive "sumo video news service" to provide video coverage to a broad international viewer base in a format that is arguably a form of "news."

False assumption #2: maintaining info-sumo.net, sumo-forum.net, dichne.com, sumodb / sumogames.com, and personal photo pages, etc. are all reasonably close in cost, close enough to be considered "equal" for the purposes of this argument.

The bandwidth required to handle scads of flash-video is probably higher than even banzuke.com in it's heyday. And we really no longer have banzuke.com but why is it fair to expect the same super-human level of selflessness that we came to know from Dale? Once again, we do not know the financial specifics behind maintaining each of these domains. At best, some very few of us are in the know on the finances of one or two of these sites. Some of them are aided by viable advertising, but not all sites fit that model, and some hosts are dead against it. I believe the cost of sumoforum.net is generously donated by it's founders and advertising is only cross-linked, but I can guarantee that info-sumo.net costs significantly more on an annual basis. Sumogames.com may be in the same ballpark as I-S but it has a much broader base for maintenance, input and donations. Sumogames.com also has a paypal "collection basket" and how is it different from supporting Dichne.com by downloading the toolbar? We have to assume that "support" means it is generating some sort of revenue for Moti to maintain his site, and I don't begrudge him of it or the sparse advertising he has taken on.

So in my mind, how a webmaster makes ends meet doesn't belong in a head-to-head comparison on free time put into providing our community with news, photos, information, camaraderie, or even hilarious captions and jokes that can bear no price tag. Unless Info-Sumo.net plans on turning the donations into a small salary for his time spent, we have nothing to say but "Thank you." :-D

Edited July 14, 2008 by kaiguma

[JAB 0]

Well I did not mean to stir the pot so to speak. All I was curious about was somewhere to see the matches.

I am a techno-dolt so I have no clue about anything online. The French site looks promising, but I cannot navigate around to find the various viewing places, plus I do not have extra cash right now to "donate."

Thanks to those who have shared!

Cheers

Jake

[Kintamayama 45,519]

and how is it different from supporting Dichne.com by downloading the toolbar? We have to assume that "support" means it is generating some sort of revenue for Moti to maintain his site, and I don't begrudge him of it or the sparse advertising he has taken on.

I have never received one single shekel, ever, for what I do regarding sumo, as a matter of principal. The "sparse advertising" is a joke, since not one of my visitors actually pays anything for clicking a link, which, BTW, no one ever has...The downloading of the sumo toolbar costs nothing to any sumo fan.

That being said, I agree there is no comparison bandwidth-wise between any of us and info-sumo. I understand the costs are high, as info-sumo himself explains (quite well, actually) on the info-sumo forum. The thing is this- TIME= money, cliche or not. Hence, I do equate the hours and hours and hours and hours someone like Doitsuyama has spent on the database, and that goes for the rest of the regular contributors as well, to actual money being spent on masses of bandwidth used.

Truth be told, I have the good fortune to have the time to be able to watch the fuzzy wuzzy daily, so I rarely frequent the info-sumo videos, but feel "comforted" that they are there.

As I said, I don't blame info-sumo for what he's doing, and don't raise my eyebrows in feigned indignance over copyright issues,as I have been accused of being a borderline high-seas pirate of sorts myself.

In any case, I will never charge a cent for how I waste my time on sumo doing my little schtick for the community.

[Takemi 0]

I'd like to weigh in on the so-called info-sumo "problem." The only problem is with people who make false assumptions on profitability and fail to discern the differences between the cost of bandwidth and the cost of personal time... pricesless, ne?

False assumption #1: info-sumo.net is selling the videos.

It is a donation. They give no specified price, though there may at some time be a minimum for full video, depending on the success of the unmonitored donation system. It is annual (not sure if by calendar year or date of donation). There is no evidence that profit is involved. I can only guess that 99% of us have no idea of Info-sumo's financial situation, either in maintaining the site or in his personal life. What if this is his only viable option for keeping the service available? What if otherwise he feels forced to shut down?

***The only argument against with a shred of viability is that this increases the chance of being reported and having himself shut down involuntarily. [in fact, I really wish we were not discussing this here on forum, for reasons I probably don't need to specify.] There are certainly disputes about international copyright law and the use of media for "news" or vlogging jounalism. It is a deep argument that will never be solved without case-specific litigation... but I-S has been very careful not to use any NHK proprietary logos, typeface, graphics, charts, etc. He rarely provides pre-bout commentary, and generally provides post-bout only for select bouts with replays. He has even stopped posting the news segments. So I think if it came down to a lawsuit, and I pray it never does, he has a pretty good case in an international court. He is not ripping the entire broadcast and making it available, and he makes no profit from the venture. He is also the only comprehensive "sumo video news service" to provide video coverage to a broad international viewer base in a format that is arguably a form of "news."

Of course he is selling the videos! Just because it is disguised in form of an donation it doesn mean he isnt, it is just the same as selling it! And just because he makes no actuall "profit" (and how do you know that?). Many buisneses makes no profit or even goes minus but they are selling stuff anyway( its bad to compare him with a buisness, because he isnt so "profit" talk must be taken lightly). he gets money!And if he choose to spend it on bandwith instead of pizza that his choice. I cant imagine that he makes it or brakes it depending on the donations and if thats the case just dont upload the movies!

I want to add that I dont really care if he wants to get money just because, its just not smart to ask for money because increasing risk of being shut down that will follow. As me and other people mentioned before. So to sum it up, at the minimum: info-sumo dont want to pay extra for bandwith, instead he choose to at the lowest increase the risk quite significant of men in suit take the vids away and making it much harder for anyone in the future to upload sumo vids.

with that said, some high profile matches day 3-nagoya basho 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4kLETupufw

[kaiguma 0]

Of course he is selling the videos! Just because it is disguised in form of an donation it doesn mean he isnt, it is just the same as selling it!

I guess you didn't take the time to examine your own thinking for false assumptions . . . :-D

or for a one-sided argument . . . or for a differing opinion now that I read your signature . . .

The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC has a suggested donation for entrance. You have to donate something and yu have to be given a lapel button to enter. When you pay, they give you a receipt since it is a tax-deductible donation. I would never consider this "selling tickets" whether someone pays the suggest $12-20 bucks or whatever, or whether you are cheap like me and literally give them _a penny_

I payed to get in, but they didn't sell me anything. They asked; I gave.

I didn't give much to I-S, but I would have given more if I were in a better financial state right now.

What he is selling is not the videos themselves, but a membership. It is also a way to support the site, which is simply a matter of logistics. Yes the membership provides access to videos, and you can argue he is selling access, but what is really wring with a very small reistration fee? We pay registration fees all the time. Sometimes we pay registration fees for services or products which are essentially free... Sumogames has a suggested donation of $2 per game. If next basho Kofuji decided he can no longer afford his bandwidth and must institute mandatory annual donation for users to register for games, will we complain so loudly? No, he has personal relationships from years of sharing with the core of our English-speaking fan-base. Would you say he is "selling the games" when you play 7 of them (suggested retail $14 x 6 = $84) but you can still play for a dollar?

Since I-S is not even monitoring the level of donations, it's difficult to construct a logical argument that he is "selling" videos. I suppose that won't stop you from spouting it, though.

I also feel that he has a good case against censorship, though an ISP has the final say in most private-server disputes. So yeah, he is certainly at risk of getting taken out. I do know firsthand that what I said earlier is true: for him it is either what we have now, or nothing. So I guess I'd rather take that risk.

Moti can still rest easy tonight knowing that if the fuzzy conks out tomorrow, he can still watch the videos the next day for one lousy shekel. (Applauding...)

Edited July 14, 2008 by kaiguma

[Kintamayama 45,519]

Moti can still rest easy tonight knowing that if the fuzzy conks out tomorrow, he can still watch the videos the next day for one lousy shekel. :-D

5 shekels at today's going rate, but who's counting..

http://isohunt.com/download/47341320/Nagoya+basho.torrent

Edited July 14, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Sashohitowa 6]

I thought the sumo community, regardless of the language spoken, race, or creed was a relatively close knit one, where everyone is everyone else's friend. With all due respect to info-sumo, and I have respect, I can think of a few people who contributed a wee bit more to our community and would never dream of asking for money. Doitsuyama, for example. His database is such an intricate and mind-boggling piece of work that I'm sure many would be willing to pay for access if that ever happens. There are many more fine examples like Jonosuke and Mado-san's rikishi talk (many come to this forum just to read that and don't contribute much else, eh??), Fay and John's pictures, etc.. etc..

Those that can contribute just do it. I'm pretty sure none of them ever dreamed of asking for money. Yes, I know it's time-consuming to upload these fine vids. It's also time-consuming to translate the online articles from Japanese on a daily basis for four years, believe me.

Our community is about giving, and it seems to me (how naive) that most of us give with pleasure. I'm not angry with info-sumo, just disappointed, because we always had a great rapport with the French forum and I definitely did not see this coming.

I personally will not pay for services rendered, unless we'll have a decent official feed one day. Others surely will, but that's their choice.

Dommage.

:-D (Applauding...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC has a suggested donation for entrance. You have to donate something and yu have to be given a lapel button to enter. I payed to get in, but they didn't sell me anything. They asked; I gave.

If you 'HAVE' to donate it is no longer a donation.

If the MMA in NYC grants admission ONLY upon having received a donation - that is selling admission. Cost is irrelevant. To purchase something requires a charge. Those selling that which is purchased by another receive funds.

If no donation equates to no admission, that equates to admission having been sold.

FWIW - The British Museum in London suggested a donation (any currency IIRC) but the last time I was there (a decade ago) even those not opting to donate were still granted entrance.

[Sashohitowa 6]

kaiguma,

Your view is interesting and thoughts provoking. Although that, as a result of all these thoughts, I still come to a different conclusion than you.

A slight off-topic: I remembered of a recent event in the music world - those of you that are fond of rock music probably heard that Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails have put their new albums for download from internet. There have been given the possibility for everyone to donate as much as he wants for this. (I haven't personally downloaded any of them, so I can't give you more details, but it doesn't matter for the moment.)

I must say I admire their initiative, because this is the way how I imagine people from one community to behave to each other. Contributing and respecting.

Somehow I cannot put into this category the act of Info-sumo (again, I have never watched or downloaded videos from the French site, so again I comment as an outsider) - the thought, that he is trying to make a profit with goods that are not his, is really morbid, but if the idea is to retain the service for the comunity, then there are so many, more respectable and more efficient ways to do it!?

Was it made clear to the users of the videos, that the surviving of the site is problematic, so the need for support is essencial (like, for example, Wikipedia did)? I am very sure that enough users would voluntarily contribute, if they knew what is the case.

Anyway. I personally enjoyed very much last basho's youtube availability, I was watching also a lot of interesting and memorable fights on banzuke.com. But I think that the biggest loss that many people from the gaijin audience wouldn't be able to reconsile - that would be the live stream. So until NSK is so generous to the comunity of sumo fans to give away the live coverage of all sekitori fights in real time, I am deeply grateful. Despite the bad camera (sometimes), the hours spent in clicking untill I hook (now is much much better, I agree!), and despite the low pixel rate - I am deeply grateful that we have this.

And once again I'd like to thank all of you who contribute - with translations, analysis, photos, server hostings or software and sites development. I am really grateful. :-D

In that context I would understand better if a sumo site closes down, rather than, in a way, blackmail for money.

[Mark Buckton 1]

actually kaiguma, a Q if I may? (as I have never been to NYC)

Does the MMA ask visitors to refrain from taking photos or are they permitted? (Applauding...)

[Sakana 46]

If you wants numbers, here there are : the server costs 1080

[Manekineko 200]

The reactions to Info-sumo's action remind me of a psychology study I heard of...

Imagine that you're in a queue for something not quite essential - photocopier I think it was in the study, but the register in your local store is another good example. You wouldn't be very happy if someone would try to skip the queue, would you? But if the person asked you "Could you please let me go first, I only have two items", you may feel generous and let them pass. The study showed that actually it doesn't matter what the explanation is, it may be simply "I'm in a hurry", the important thing is asking for permission. We humans are also very eager to please, and help when asked to... all part of being social creatures, I guess.

So in my view, the outrage over Info-sumo's actions is mostly due to "not being asked" - we feel this was forced upon us. Interestingly enough, I first watched the juryo and considered making a donation when asked for it at the end of the clip. But when I saw that it was a requirement for higher makuuchi bouts I decided not to, purely out of spite I'm sorry to say. A couple of days later, I'm undecided. But I find the moral outrage expressed by some in this thread a bit over the top...

And yes, hat off to the British museum (and the Royal museum/Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh) for the policy of free entry. I went in for free, was blown away with the contents and paid on the way out. (Applauding...)

[Exil 301]

Moderator Notice

Torrent talk moved.

[kaiguma 0]

actually kaiguma, a Q if I may? (as I have never been to NYC)

Does the MMA ask visitors to refrain from taking photos or are they permitted? ;-)

(Applauding...)

but since my answer is one line I will not waste the time to PM you :-P

I have no clue! But the museum is so easy to get into it never occurred to me - I can see the permanent collection anytime I'd like. Check the website about photos.

edit: probably photos are allowed but no flash...

Edited July 15, 2008 by kaiguma

[Mark Buckton 1]

What would people say to a Japanese national / anyone living in Japan confused at the indignation being shown on SF regarding Info Sumo

Edited July 15, 2008 by Mark Buckton