Boy did they screw Asashoryu today

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

How can one be "on board" with an objectively wrong decision? Or do you mean your first impression? I agree that without slow motion, this one was easier to catch than Asa's wrongly denied victory.

There is no such thing as "Asa's wrongly denied victory". Asa was completely airborne and out of the dohyo when Tochinonada touched earth.

I saw Tokitenku-Baruto only on the stream, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that Baruto was in a much, much better position (like still having a foot on the dohyo) than Asashoryu by the time Tokitenku touched down as Tokitenku's touch down came so early, a big difference.

[Asashosakari 19,309]

There is no such thing as "Asa's wrongly denied victory". Asa was completely airborne and out of the dohyo when Tochinonada touched earth.

Alas, the broken record will likely keep skipping.

[HenryK 38]

How can one be "on board" with an objectively wrong decision? Or do you mean your first impression? I agree that without slow motion, this one was easier to catch than Asa's wrongly denied victory.

There is no such thing as "Asa's wrongly denied victory". Asa was completely airborne and out of the dohyo when Tochinonada touched earth.

Only if you think Asashoryu was shini-tai. I can't see how this applies in this case. Tochinonada was pushing, Asashoryu sidesteping and pulling. Both went out, but Tochinonada clearly first.

If Asashoryu was shini-tai here, any rikishi winning by utchari is.

[Jonosuke 28]

But a rikishi performing an utchari is executing a move but in case of Asashoryu in this occasion he had no other way of escaping the inevitable.

I think we get this sort of argument again and again but in a way it tells me we are constantly getting new members in here so I guess we are performing a public service.

[HenryK 38]

But a rikishi performing an utchari is executing a move but in case of Asashoryu in this occasion he had no other way of escaping the inevitable.

I think we get this sort of argument again and again but in a way it tells me we are constantly getting new members in here so I guess we are performing a public service.

Thanks for your public service. But in performing it, you could perhaps add what other way of escaping the inevitable Ama had against Wakanoho than going for utchari at the last basho.

I'm not claiming to be versed in all details of sumo technique, but I understand that for being shini-tai the fella who touches down second must really be inactive. Asashoryu wasn't, he sidestepped and went for some counter-nage, and in doing so caused Tochinonada to torpedoe out of the dohyo as well and touch down first.

[hidenohana 0]

Asashoryu-Hakuho

Asashoryu-Kotonowaka

Why wasn't the shintai rule exercised in the above two bouts?

My understanding is that this is a subjective call and maybe part of the rulebook that needs tightening.

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

In an utchari win the winner usually has a feet on the dohyo when the loser touches down. Asashoryu was just flying. See the difference?

Edit: This is a response to HenryK...

Edited July 19, 2008 by Doitsuyama

[Randomitsuki 2,826]

Asashoryu-Hakuho

Asashoryu-Kotonowaka

Why wasn't the shintai rule exercised in the above two bouts?

With respect to the first bout that's a good question. I had no conscious recollection of that bout (shame on me, because it was really spectacular), and I was surprised that the gunbai pointed to Asashoryu. Not even a mono-ii. I would have thought that it was an utchari by Hakuho. Even Asashoryu rather looked as if he thought he'd lost.

The second bout was much discussed back then. Many people have argued that Asashoryu wasn't that "dead" in this bout. From his completely awkward position he managed to pull down Kotonowaka. So at least a tori-naoshi was ordered.

[Harry 67]

If you remember the wonderful recent Uchari executed by Ama against Wakanoho (IIRC), Ama didn't touch the ground first so there was no need to decide who was shintai (dead body). In Hakuho/Asashoryu video #1 above Hak clearly touches first and Asa was not completely off the dohyo at the time so he won. This is different than the Nada case where he was appears to be way out, out way farther than Nada. Still, these are close battles and the safest way to win a sumo match is to remain on your feet and in the dohyo -- as with every other judged sport, placing your fate in the hands of the judges is less than ideal!

[hidenohana 0]

Another bout for your consideration...

From back in Jan 2003 -Takanohana's last basho I believe.

http://www.banzuke.com/~movies/hatsu2003/020103mov.html

It's the Miyabiyama Takanohana bout

[HenryK 38]

Asashoryu-Hakuho

Asashoryu-Kotonowaka

Why wasn't the shintai rule exercised in the above two bouts?

My understanding is that this is a subjective call and maybe part of the rulebook that needs tightening.

My five cents: the first bout looked like a botched utchari attempt to me; and as it was botched (Hakuho didn't manage to flip Asa) Asashoryu rightly won by yoritaoshi. The second bout, yes, this looks like a fairly plausible case of shini-tai. Certainly more plausible than Tochinonada-Asashoryu.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Was never a Kotonowaka fan (far too big and slow - like an old Mitoizumi) but I don't think many will ever see that Asa move as deliberate. FWIW - I didn't think the Kotonowaka 'prevent injury to my foe' blurb that appeared was legit either - just a cae of both scrambling, a weird ending - and a justifiable rematch.

[Hananotaka 8]

Regarding the most recent bout in question: the rikishi in Tochinonada's position will win this bout 9 times out of 10. He did not fall down because of a move initiated by Asashoryu, he fell down because he was pushing Asa out. At the time he touched down, as others have mentioned, Asa was airborn, half out of the dohyo, not even touching Tochinonada, and clearly unable to save himself. A clear loss. Any mono-ii would only be for kakunin (confirmation).

Regarding Asa-Hakuho failed utchari: IIRC, the slow motion replay showed that Asa lost his footing before Asa was sent out of the ring. For an utchari to be successful, he has to be in control when the other guy goes out. He can fall down because of the momentum of the throw, being pulled along by his opponent, but he can't himself lose his footing before the guy is clearly out. If you watch the bout again, you'll see that Asa went out as a result of Hakuho tipping over, rather than Hakuho tipping over as a result of Asa going out.

Regarding Asa-Kotonowaka: This was a colossal judging cock-up. There's basically two ways to look at it: Asashoryu was shinitai, Kotonowaka's hand was kabaite, Kotonowaka wins. Or, Asashoryu was ikitai, Kotonowaka's hand was tsukite, Asashoryu wins. I personally think the latter is ridiculous, but if one wants to argue that Asa was not shinitai, then there's no way that can be called a "dotai" and have a torinaoshi.

[paolo 0]

Regarding the most recent bout in question: the rikishi in Tochinonada's position will win this bout 9 times out of 10. He did not fall down because of a move initiated by Asashoryu, he fell down because he was pushing Asa out. At the time he touched down, as others have mentioned, Asa was airborn, half out of the dohyo, not even touching Tochinonada, and clearly unable to save himself. A clear loss. Any mono-ii would only be for kakunin (confirmation).

Regarding Asa-Hakuho failed utchari: IIRC, the slow motion replay showed that Asa lost his footing before Asa was sent out of the ring. For an utchari to be successful, he has to be in control when the other guy goes out. He can fall down because of the momentum of the throw, being pulled along by his opponent, but he can't himself lose his footing before the guy is clearly out. If you watch the bout again, you'll see that Asa went out as a result of Hakuho tipping over, rather than Hakuho tipping over as a result of Asa going out.

Regarding Asa-Kotonowaka: This was a colossal judging cock-up. There's basically two ways to look at it: Asashoryu was shinitai, Kotonowaka's hand was kabaite, Kotonowaka wins. Or, Asashoryu was ikitai, Kotonowaka's hand was tsukite, Asashoryu wins. I personally think the latter is ridiculous, but if one wants to argue that Asa was not shinitai, then there's no way that can be called a "dotai" and have a torinaoshi.

IMO:

1. Asashoryu-Tochinonada. I agree, a clear loss.

2. Asashoryu-Hakuho: Hakuho succeeds in changing the bout at the very last moment. Asashoryu is very lucky because the action takes place at the North-East corner, so Hakuho touches the ground before Asashoryu touches the ground himself outside the dohyo, and the impression is that Asashoryu has pushed Hakuho to the ground. If only the action had been at the Northern side (45 degrees counterclockwise) , Hakuho's win would have been clear.

3. Asashoryu-Kotonowaka. I disagree. Kotonowaka's nage is perfect and should be winning, but ... Asashoryu does not fall down, so he has not lost yet and the gyoji cannot stop the bout ! Asashoryu looks at Kotonowaka, pulls strongly on his mawashi and makes him fall, and Asashoryu should be the winner. The judges have never seen so strange a situation (I presume very few people have...) and in the end decide for the torinaoshi. All things considered, not a bad decision.

[hidenohana 0]

A couple of bouts and so many different theories and opinions...

Does anybody have anything to say about the Miyabiyama Takanohana bout?

Is there anyway you can call that for Takanohana,keeping the shintai rule in mind.

Personally ,I have very great difficulty in seeing it less than a win for Miyabiyama.

[hidenohana 0]

Asashoryu-Hakuho

Asashoryu-Kotonowaka

Why wasn't the shintai rule exercised in the above two bouts?

My understanding is that this is a subjective call and maybe part of the rulebook that needs tightening.

I've a better video of the first fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz1VaZ6JNHE...feature=related

At 2.42 Asashoryu hand goes down below the level of the dohyo before Hakuho hits the clay.

Why was no mono-ii called?

[Asashosakari 19,309]

At 2.42 Asashoryu hand goes down below the level of the dohyo before Hakuho hits the clay.

Why was no mono-ii called?

Breaking the dohyo plane doesn't matter, contrary to popular belief.

[hidenohana 0]

At 2.42 Asashoryu hand goes down below the level of the dohyo before Hakuho hits the clay.

Why was no mono-ii called?

Breaking the dohyo plane doesn't matter, contrary to popular belief.

Oh well.Thanks!Still awfully close.

[Hananotaka 8]

3. Asashoryu-Kotonowaka. I disagree. Kotonowaka's nage is perfect and should be winning, but ... Asashoryu does not fall down, so he has not lost yet and the gyoji cannot stop the bout ! Asashoryu looks at Kotonowaka, pulls strongly on his mawashi and makes him fall, and Asashoryu should be the winner. The judges have never seen so strange a situation (I presume very few people have...) and in the end decide for the torinaoshi. All things considered, not a bad decision.

Disagree on whether Asashoryu was ikitai or shinitai if you like, but the rules are quite clear and there's no way this was not a bad decision. If Asa is ikitai, as you suppose, Kotonowaka touched first and is the clear loser. If Asa is shinitai, as I believe (that he didn't immediately fall down is irrelevant; when you can not right yourself under your own power and all you can do is hold on and let your weight pull your opponent down, you're shinitai, and you've already lost), then Kotonowaka wins. There was no need for a torinaoshi, even if it was something the judges never saw before.

[paolo 0]

3. Asashoryu-Kotonowaka. I disagree. ....

Disagree on whether Asashoryu was ikitai or shinitai if you like, but the rules are quite clear and there's no way this was not a bad decision. If Asa is ikitai, as you suppose, Kotonowaka touched first and is the clear loser. If Asa is shinitai, as I believe (that he didn't immediately fall down is irrelevant; when you can not right yourself under your own power and all you can do is hold on and let your weight pull your opponent down, you're shinitai, and you've already lost), then Kotonowaka wins. There was no need for a torinaoshi, even if it was something the judges never saw before.

Not to quarrel, but I doubt that the rules are so clear ... If you are right, that is if Asashoryu has already lost, the gyoji should stop the bout immediately: why should the bout go on if the winner is already defined? In my opinion the gyoji pointed to Kotonowaka because he thought that Asashoryu had touched the ground the first, which is not true.... The 5 judges could not come to an agreement, so they decided for the torinaoshi. By the way, as I asked at that time without having an answer, if this situation is so clear and usual, can somebody please show me another movie of a similar situation ? Thanks and regards !

[Hananotaka 8]

Not to quarrel, but I doubt that the rules are so clear ...

Well, they are. Ikitai/Shinitai may be a judgment call, but in terms of the sequence of the bout, doutai should not have been ruled. It was a miscall.

If you are right, that is if Asashoryu has already lost, the gyoji should stop the bout immediately: why should the bout go on if the winner is already defined?

He did. Watch the video. He starts to point to Kotonowaka before Kotonowaka touches down, and long before Asashoryu touches down.

In my opinion the gyoji pointed to Kotonowaka because he thought that Asashoryu had touched the ground the first, which is not true....

I'm afraid your opinion is mistaken. The gyoji is on record as pointing to Kotonowaka because he believed Asa was shinitai.

The 5 judges could not come to an agreement, so they decided for the torinaoshi.

And this is what was wrong. A torinaoshi is NOT supposed to be called when there's no agreement. A torinaoshi is called when there's a decision of "doutai" - both falling at the same time. Because Kotonowaka clearly touched before Asashoryu, there can be no doutai. Either Asa was ikitai and Koto lost, or Asa was shinitai and Koto won.

By the way, as I asked at that time without having an answer, if this situation is so clear and usual, can somebody please show me another movie of a similar situation ? Thanks and regards !

No movies, unfortunately. The vast, vast majority of sumo done even since Dale started recording the movies in 2000 is not available on the internet, even from what is available on film.

The question of shinitai is one that can be debated. That's a judgment call. But the sequence of events are quite clear, and the rules regarding torinaoshi are clear. Kotonowaka touched first, so there can be no doutai, and thus should have been no torinaoshi.

[paolo 0]

.....

If you are right, that is if Asashoryu has already lost, the gyoji should stop the bout immediately: why should the bout go on if the winner is already defined?

He did. Watch the video. He starts to point to Kotonowaka before Kotonowaka touches down, and long before Asashoryu touches down.

In my opinion the gyoji pointed to Kotonowaka because he thought that Asashoryu had touched the ground the first, which is not true....

I'm afraid your opinion is mistaken. The gyoji is on record as pointing to Kotonowaka because he believed Asa was shinitai.

I'm afraid I still disagree....

The 5 judges could not come to an agreement, so they decided for the torinaoshi.

And this is what was wrong. A torinaoshi is NOT supposed to be called when there's no agreement. A torinaoshi is called when there's a decision of "doutai" - both falling at the same time. Because Kotonowaka clearly touched before Asashoryu, there can be no doutai. Either Asa was ikitai and Koto lost, or Asa was shinitai and Koto won.

The question of shinitai is one that can be debated. That's a judgment call. But the sequence of events are quite clear, and the rules regarding torinaoshi are clear. Kotonowaka touched first, so there can be no doutai, and thus should have been no torinaoshi.

May I insist that the situation is a paradox: if you are right you may be wrong !!. Let us say that you are right, and the gyoji starts pointing to Kotonowaka because he considers Asashoryu shinitai. None of the two has touched the ground yet, when the gyoji's decision has already been taken; the bout is over, Kotonowaka is the winner, what happens later is immaterial, who touches the ground the first AFTER the gyoji's decision is immaterial. Now comes the mono-ii, where the 5 judges agree that the gyoji's decision ( considering the bout over because Asashoryu was shinitai) was wrong. Since what happened AFTER the gyoji's decision is obviously immaterial because the bout was over, what else should they have decided for, other than a torinaoshi ?

(I am sorry to bore many forum attendants with a discussion that is referred to an old bout, but I find it very interesting. Maybe the moderator would like to move it to another topic ? )

Edited August 1, 2008 by paolo

[Hananotaka 8]

I'm afraid I still disagree....

You disagree with the video, which clearly shows the gyoji pointing to Kotonowaka's side before Asashoryu hits the ground, or you disagree with the gyoji's own words on the matter? Like or not the gyoji has publicly said that he raised the gumbai toward Kotonowaka because he felt Asa was shinitai.

May I insist that the situation is a paradox: if you are right you may be wrong !!. Let us say that you are right, and the gyoji starts pointing to Kotonowaka because he considers Asashoryu shinitai. None of the two has touched the ground yet, when the gyoji's decision has already been taken; the bout is over, Kotonowaka is the winner, what happens later is immaterial, who touches the ground the first AFTER the gyoji's decision is immaterial. Now comes the mono-ii, where the 5 judges agree that the gyoji's decision ( considering the bout over because Asashoryu was shinitai) was wrong. Since what happened AFTER the gyoji's decision is obviously immaterial because the bout was over, what else should they have decided for, other than a torinaoshi ?

All right, now the discussion has gotten ridiculous. What happens after the gyoji's decision is NOT immaterial. That's something you just made up. It certainly has no basis in how sumo is done. It's a very clear, very simple sequence of events.

1. Kotonowaka does a uwate-nage.

2. Asashoryu is flipped on his back.

3. Kotonowaka touches the ground.

4. Asashoryu touches the ground.

This was the discussion the judges had. If Asa is shinitai in 2, Kotonowaka wins. If Asa is ikitai in 2, Asashoryu wins. Time and existence doesn't stop because the gyoji raises his gumbai - the rikishi are still in motion. The issue has never been "stuff happened after the gyoji raised his gumbai, so we have to call a torinaoshi". The question that the judges discussed on the dohyo for 3 minutes was "Was Kotonowaka's hand touching down tsuki-te or kabai-te?" They could not come to a decision, so they declared a "dotai" and a torinaoshi, even though this was obvious to anyone watching that it was not a dotai.

I gather you liked this resolution, and hey, that's fine for you. But this was an abdication of responsibility on the part of the judges. A dotai - torinaoshi should be just that: a torinaoshi because the rikishi were dotai. Not a recourse when the judges can't come to a decision　about shinitai/ikitai or tsuki-te/kabai-te.

[paolo 0]

... Like or not the gyoji has publicly said that he raised the gumbai toward Kotonowaka because he felt Asa was shinitai....

Did he also add "... BEFORE the two fell down ?". If that is the case, then there is no discussion and on the point you are right ! You say that it is clear from the video, but I watched it many times, and I still think it is at least highly debatable...

May I insist that the situation is a paradox: if you are right you may be wrong !!. Let us say that you are right, and the gyoji starts pointing to Kotonowaka because he considers Asashoryu shinitai. None of the two has touched the ground yet, when the gyoji's decision has already been taken; the bout is over, Kotonowaka is the winner, what happens later is immaterial, who touches the ground the first AFTER the gyoji's decision is immaterial. Now comes the mono-ii, where the 5 judges agree that the gyoji's decision ( considering the bout over because Asashoryu was shinitai) was wrong. Since what happened AFTER the gyoji's decision is obviously immaterial because the bout was over, what else should they have decided for, other than a torinaoshi ?

All right, now the discussion has gotten ridiculous.

What happens after the gyoji's decision is NOT immaterial. That's something you just made up. It certainly has no basis in how sumo is done. It's a very clear, very simple sequence of events.

1. Kotonowaka does a uwate-nage.

2. Asashoryu is flipped on his back.

3. Kotonowaka touches the ground.

4. Asashoryu touches the ground.

This was the discussion the judges had. If Asa is shinitai in 2, Kotonowaka wins. If Asa is ikitai in 2, Asashoryu wins. Time and existence doesn't stop because the gyoji raises his gumbai - the rikishi are still in motion. The issue has never been "stuff happened after the gyoji raised his gumbai, so we have to call a torinaoshi". The question that the judges discussed on the dohyo for 3 minutes was "Was Kotonowaka's hand touching down tsuki-te or kabai-te?" They could not come to a decision, so they declared a "dotai" and a torinaoshi, even though this was obvious to anyone watching that it was not a dotai.

I gather you liked this resolution, and hey, that's fine for you. But this was an abdication of responsibility on the part of the judges. A dotai - torinaoshi should be just that: a torinaoshi because the rikishi were dotai. Not a recourse when the judges can't come to a decision　about shinitai/ikitai or tsuki-te/kabai-te.

I am so sorry not to see anything ridiculous in this discussion.

Your reconstruction of the sequence of events is very clear, but actually I had it clear from the very first moment we started this discussion. Where I do not follow you, on the contrary, is where you say that " What happens after the gyoji's decision is NOT immaterial ". I may be missing something in sumo rules regarding the gyoji's decision, and if this is the case I apologize. ".... Time and existence doesn't stop because the gyoji raises his gumbai - the rikishi are still in motion. " That is philosophy, but in all sports of every kind the referee's intervention stops the bout, the point, whatever. Nothing that happens afterwards can ever be taken into consideration to award the win or the point. And when there is a chance of an immediate appeal (tennis, american football, rugby, ice hockey, and so on...), the referee's decision can be changed only with regard to what happened BEFORE and UNTIL the decision is concerned, never considering what happened AFTER it. Cases are so clear that I do not make examples, if you need them please let me know. But as a last point, suppose that (like in many sports) the gyoji, before pointing the gumbai to the winner, had to blow a whistle when he considers the bout over. In our case, following your reasoning, the gyoji would have blown when he considered Asashoryu shinitai BEFORE the two fell down. The bout is over ! How could anything that happened AFTER THE WHISTLE be taken into consideration to award the win ? The only thing that can be discussed in a mono-ii is "was the gyoji right or wrong to stop the bout at that moment ?".

Have I been clearer ? Thanks all for the patience...

[Hananotaka 8]

Paolo,

This isn't a sport, this is sumo. The gyoji raising his gumbai doesn't stop the bout, making everything afterwards immaterial. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to tell you, but that's the way it is. And that's the way it was here. That the gyoji raised his gumbai before Asa touched down was not part of the discussion at all. The only questions were "Asashoryu - ikitai or shinitai? Kotonowaka - tsukite or kabaite?". The gyoji are supposed to raise their gumbai when they feel the match is decided. If they're wrong, that's what the shimpan are there for.

You say that it is clear from the video, but I watched it many times, and I still think it is at least highly debatable...

Here's a slow motion view. The gyoji raises his gumbai as Kotonowaka touches the ground, clearly before Asa touches.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Hananotaka