Will the Ossetians' cannabis issues stop recruitment?

[Asashosakari 19,465]

And if you ask any oyakata today would they rather recruit a Hakuho or a Kotomitsuki, they'll pick a Hakuho every time.

...

One leap frogging kid who nobody had any hopes for (sorry, no Japanese folks had any hopes for)

You unwittingly stumbled across the point others were trying to make, I think. Wakanoho was by far the most talented rikishi to come out of that area, and even so he was still quite far away from being "a Hakuho" (or even "a Kotomitsuki"), now-unverifiable claims that he would have matured sooner or later notwithstanding.

Overall the Russians haven't exactly burned up the sumo world despite their physical advantages (which e.g. the Mongolian squad doesn't have), and with all the behavioural issues surrounding them for quite a while now, it's certainly conceivable that the remaining foreigner-less oyakata will shy away from recruiting there, and perhaps in "the West" altogether. There's likely still some more talent available in Mongolia, and I don't even want to imagine how many guys they might be able to find in China if/when scouting and recruiting becomes easier there over the next few years.

Still, I'll maintain that it will probably barely be noticeable in the short term, anyway. Barring some creative successorship ideas (maybe Takanonami wants a stable?), Magaki-beya is probably not long for this world so there's one gaijin slot gone, Araiso-beya might well be folding into Takanohana-beya in three months which would kill off another slot, and that leaves only three heya without a foreigner, two of which have no interest in recruiting any.

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

Wakanoho was by far the most talented rikishi to come out of that area, and even so he was still quite far away from being "a Hakuho" (or even "a Kotomitsuki"), now-unverifiable claims that he would have matured sooner or later notwithstanding.

Are you saying that Wakanoho is/was better than Kotooshu/Baruto or just better than Roho, Kokkai, Tochinoshin, Aran and Hakurozan? And do we really know enough about about Tochinoshin and Aran to say that with confidence?

I think Kotooshu's (11 basho) and Baruto's (12 basho) progress into the makuuchi was faster than Wakanoho's (16 basho). I might have some numbers wrong, but I don't think so...

Maybe you're talking about potential, what potential? Were you hoping that maybe he'd someday jump clear over his opponents to the other side? Last basho he wasn't very convincing when he was doing "straight" sumo.

Without an oyakata present to give him proper training, he most likely would have just wasted away.

So, to the question "Will Wakanoho's actions stop recruitment?" the answer is "What recruitment?" there's no more room.

Does anyone think they're gonna pass a "no more white boy" rule? Seriously?

Anyway, since it seems the well is dry, we'll never know.

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

I disagree. There are no Yaku Mitsuru-s and such crying foul. That means a lot.

A.They haven't convened yet. They will on the 29th.

B. Yaku Mitsurus are not part of the Kyokai. They are part of an investigation committee made up of Oyakata and external people. When I said 12 Kyokai men, I meant the rijikai.

C. What had to be done was done, so why cry foul? And you bet your pants they will demand a more "appropriate" punishment for the Oyakata.

My point is that outcry=action. If the press hadn't ran wild with the Asashoryu soccer scandal the punishment wouldn't have been so severe. The Kyokai sure dragged their feet about the Tokitsukaze incident until the press and public demanded action.

And yes, the Kyokai has learned and this time taken swift action to calm the unwashed masses.

Everyone seems to be focusing on improving the education of foreigners, not on scraping the valuable resource that they are.

And who is "everyone"? The Kyokai? The fans? The forum members here? Who the heck is "everyone"?

Certainly not you and me. The Kyokai, oyakata, anideshi, etc. I think they want them to actually "understand" when they are told the rules and customs. Not just nod and grunt.

I don't see this having a real impact on recruitment, if you do, then beat my guest.

Just an old Adam and the Ants title I couldn't resist slipping in... Sorry.

Edited August 26, 2008 by That-Satsu-Guy

[Asashosakari 19,465]

Are you saying that Wakanoho is/was better than Kotooshu/Baruto or just better than Roho, Kokkai, Tochinoshin, Aran and Hakurozan?

The latter. Tochinoshin is one for whom "Wakanoho is by far better" might not apply, though I'd still say Wakanoho had more upside, in part because he started out with a prototypical sumo body while 'noshin is more in the atypical Takanonami/Kyokutenho mold and those guys generally have to work harder to turn their tools into success.

I do feel pretty confident that Aran will simply be Roho redux.

I think Kotooshu's (11 basho) and Baruto's (12 basho) progress into the makuuchi was faster than Wakanoho's (16 basho). I might have some numbers wrong, but I don't think so...

He also started three years younger than Kotooshu and Baruto.

Maybe you're talking about potential, what potential? Were you hoping that maybe he'd someday jump clear over his opponents to the other side? Last basho he wasn't very convincing when he was doing "straight" sumo.

Me? I said I figured he'd never go beyond sekiwake in that poll you referenced earlier. (For context: Of rikishi coming up as young as he did, IIRC 80+% reached at least ozeki.) Doesn't change the fact that he is (well, was) still tons more talented than his compatriots. He never needed the jumping and other antics, but alas, he has now ensured he won't have the opportunity to figure that out sometime, notwithstanding the fact that I believed he wouldn't figure it out anyway.

Does anyone think they're gonna pass a "no more white boy" rule? Seriously?

I don't. But then I'm also the type of person who doesn't have any problem with the notion that Barry Bonds isn't actually blackballed from MLB, just that 30 general managers independently reached the conclusion that signing him isn't worth the trouble. I can see something like that happening with foreigner recruiting. Anyway, other people might end up thinking that there is a "no more white boys" rule if that happens, just like people keep claiming there was a "no more Hawaiians" rule in the 1990s despite an utter lack of actual evidence.

In any case, I did say "in the short term". Right now there really isn't any space anyway, but three or four years from now there ought to be a bunch of free spots, unless the Kyokai manages to go into overdrive in their heya consolidation efforts. Some of the gaijin sekitori aren't spring chickens anymore (Asashoryu, Roho, Kasugao, Tokitenku for starters), and a few guys such as Kokkai and Hakurozan look like they might not be aging well, but more importantly there's a huge glut of foreigners who probably won't be escaping makushita and will be at prime age for a "well, I tried until it didn't make sense anymore" retirement at that point (being aged 28, give or take a year).

Edited August 26, 2008 by Asashosakari

[higginbotham 0]

I do feel pretty confident that Aran will simply be Roho redux.

Yesterday he was a new Kokkai, now he is detinated to become a new Roho. And tomorrow ?

[higginbotham 0]

Wakanoho was by far the most talented rikishi to come out of that area, and even so he was still quite far away from being "a Hakuho" (or even "a Kotomitsuki"), now-unverifiable claims that he would have matured sooner or later notwithstanding.

Are you saying that Wakanoho is/was better than Kotooshu/Baruto or just better than Roho, Kokkai, Tochinoshin, Aran and Hakurozan? And do we really know enough about about Tochinoshin and Aran to say that with confidence?

Kotooshu, Baruto, Wakanoho, Kokkai, Roho all of the same area ?

Get on a car and find it out ;-)

[Asashosakari 19,465]

Yesterday he was a new Kokkai, now he is detinated to become a new Roho. And tomorrow ?

That was a generous assessment based on seeing him in approximately four bouts where he fit the powerful-but-technically-limited mold best. He's since managed to earn a significant downgrading thanks to succumbing to Russian Hiki Disease. Not my fault that it's hard to find to find non-Western rikishi comparisons for those styles, though I'm open to calling Aran "the next Asanowaka" if he keeps following that path.

Incidentally, you're about three months late to point out my about-face here. Somebody already did that, but thanks for playing. ;-)

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

Kotooshu, Baruto, Wakanoho, Kokkai, Roho all of the same area ?

Get on a car and find it out ;-)

Well, I got on a car, but they're hard to drive from the outside...

Anyway, I never said they were from the same area, I was just checking with Asashosakari.

Estonia was annexed by the soviets in 1944 and Bulgaria was under the soviet sphere of influence.

Considering the broad brush foreigners are painted with, I don't think the Japanese worry about geography that much.

But OK, I'm standing on my car.... now what?

[Jonosuke 28]

If you look at recent headlines Wakanoho has dropped completely off the radar. It seems to me this is more about Magaki oyakata than Wakanonho. They only keep mentioning that he's Russian because most Japanese have never heard of him and need some kind of identifier beyond his shikona to distinguish him from the mass of constantly fluctuating sekitori.

I think you are right that this is as much about Magaki oyakata as Wakanoho as the oyakata has very few friends left in the Kyokai after making a stupid remark about all oyakata beat up their recruits. Having an illness is no excuse for being totally ignorant about goings-on in his heya. It is completely unimaginable to most that he did not to know about his heya head was living away from his heya.

Most oyakata would prefer to see him fold his heya and hand over the care of his rikishi to another more reliable oyakata. He could plead Taiiho was able to keep his heya after a stroke but each case is different and at the moment he is in no condition to oversee his heya's operations especially having no other oyakata at his heya and no okamisan. It is simply not fair to the heya's rikishi. It's really hard for me to say all this as he was my greatest hero as an active rikishi but it has come to a point he must think for the good of Ozumo and let the control of his heya over to someone else.

About most Japanese never heard of Wakanoho. you are right too but then most Japanese cannot tell the difference between Tochiozan and Goeido even if they heard of their name so that is nothing strange or new. Ask them about what Magaki oyakata's shikona was, most of them have no idea even though he was a yokozuna.

And if you ask any oyakata today would they rather recruit a Hakuho or a Kotomitsuki, they'll pick a Hakuho every time. Everyone seems to be focusing on improving the education of foreigners, not on scraping the valuable resource that they are.

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'd definitely say if they were confronted with choosing between this 80 kg lanky kid from Mongolia and a High School/College/Amateur yokozuna, the answer is easy. They will pick a Kotomitsuki 10 out of 10. No questions asked.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Jonosuke

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

And if you ask any oyakata today would they rather recruit a Hakuho or a Kotomitsuki, they'll pick a Hakuho every time. Everyone seems to be focusing on improving the education of foreigners, not on scraping the valuable resource that they are.

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'd definitely say if they were confronted with choosing between this 80 kg lanky kid from Mongolia and a High School/College/Amateur yokozuna, the answer is easy. They will pick a Kotomitsuki 10 out of 10. No questions asked.

I agree 100%.

I think when they picked Kotooshu and Aran, they were already big guys who were proven in amateur sumo.

I don't really know about young undersized foreigners. On one hand they're young enough to teach everything and they have less bad habits from careers in other sports, and on the other hand they're a huge risk compared to Japanese kids.

Kotomitsuki is a give me to anybody, but I think Asashoryu's high school sumo showed he had a bright future too.

So, I guess they might pass on 80kg Hakuho if he came knocking today, but they would still take Asashoryu and possibly regret it later.

BTW Higginbotham, if I offended you or lowered your confidence in your English, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention.

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

I disagree. There are no Yaku Mitsuru-s and such crying foul. That means a lot.

A.They haven't convened yet. They will on the 29th.

B. Yaku Mitsurus are not part of the Kyokai. They are part of an investigation committee made up of Oyakata and external people. When I said 12 Kyokai men, I meant the rijikai.

C. What had to be done was done, so why cry foul? And you bet your pants they will demand a more "appropriate" punishment for the Oyakata.

It seems Yaku was in on that meeting and he's playing a big role...

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20080830-00000036-spn-spo

Oh, and they're focusing on education and not on halting recruitment.

[Kintamayama 45,305]

It seems Yaku was in on that meeting and he's playing a big role...

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20080830-00000036-spn-spo

Oh, and they're focusing on education and not on halting recruitment.

Of course he was in on that meeting-he's part of the Prevention Convention.. I told you we would be hearing from him on the 29th..

FYI, there is an old thread on that on our forum from two days ago at

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15954

[higginbotham 0]

And do we really know enough about about Tochinoshin and Aran to say that with confidence?

no problem problem problem.....

typos never happen, do they ?

Edited September 1, 2008 by higginbotham

[Jonosuke 28]

Actually the kyokai hasn't been recruiting from Russia and Eastern Europe at all in the last several years.

Those who joined are either somewhat related to one who is in Ozumo already or came knocking on their doors through one type of connection or the other.

Not only most oyakata not showing any sort of interest at all actively recruiting from that area but some are reluctant to even accept them even when they are asked to see possble recruits.

[Manekineko 200]

no problem problem problem.....

typos never happen, do they ?

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[Mark Buckton 1]

perhaps the title of this poll could be amended?

[Mark Buckton 1]

brilliant whoever did that!

[Fujisan 533]

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Please refrain from name calling, and please use PM for more private communications and disagreements with That Satsu guy and other Forum members. I believe they are of no general interest to the rest of the Forum.

For a second there I thought you meant 'That satsu guy and the other forum(Sumotalk) are of no general interest to other members of this forum.'

Sorry honoured Moderator.

[Kintamayama 45,305]

Some Oyakata are suggesting that all foreign recruiting will stop immediately. The guidance manuals will be written and circulated, and then after a while, the recruiting may resume, say some.

[Bealzbob 0]

I voted 'No' because I believe that oyakata ultimately want success for their heya and as such they will continue to hire outstanding talent regardless of where they're from.