banzuke - east and left, west and right

[paolo 0]

Probably a stupid question... Suddenly it occurred to me that in the banzuke and in all the documents, diagrams and so on East is located left and West is located right. Instinctively, from my point of view of a western person, I would write West on the left and East on the right, like on the maps where we observe the world, so to say, from the South towards the North. Do the japanese "observe" the world from the North ? Or is there a simpler explanation for that and I am still sleeping today ? That might be even stranger if I consider that, as far as I know, the Left is considered to be the unlucky side (see the well known Asashoryu's hand case...). Thanks !

[paolo 0]

Suddenly it occurred to me that in the banzuke...........East is located left and West is located right.

Ahem. No it's not.

Sorry, as usual I was not accurate enough .... I meant : in the Banzuke as we see it everywhere inside the official Kyokai site (and, as I wrote, at all other sites) ! Am I still wrong ? Thanks !

[Asashosakari 19,653]

Imagine you were writing that ranks as 1,2,3 etc. Where would you put the number 1? On the top left of the chart or the top right? East is higher ranked and therefore goes on the left. Nothing to do with geography and everything to do with rank.

I have a fairly simply theory for the whole thing, but it rests on the answer (which I don't know) to one question: is the whole "the East side is considered the more prestigious one because that's where Edo/Tokyo is" thing actually true, or is it just folk mythology and the real explanation for East being "better" is simply because of the old right-to-left way of reading/writing? If the latter, I'd just attribute the geographical inconsistency to the switch in writing styles.

Edit: Yes, I realize that right-to-left writing isn't totally gone (the tables in the rikishi directory come to mind), but we're mostly talking about electronic communications, I presume.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton 1]

what about top to bottom writing? All Japanese language newspapers use this format AFAIK

All connected to where the Emperor is (and which Emperor actually is in power!) - in the Kokugikan the 'East' stand is actually facing north.

Search is your friend Asa.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Mark Buckton

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

While it's true many newspapers use the vertical columns when printing articles, horizontal rows are being seen more often these days...

[Asashosakari 19,653]

what about top to bottom writing?

Err, it's irrelevant to the subject under discussion here? You're welcome.

(1, 2, 3...nope, wasn't a #4.)

Edited January 13, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton 1]

as is your 'whole' relevant to the subject under discussion theory and any later ideas based on this nugget:

or is .......... the real explanation for East being "better" is simply because of the old right-to-left way of reading/writing? If the latter, I'd just attribute the geographical inconsistency to the switch in writing styles

Where did you get that pearl anyway?

Edited January 13, 2009 by Mark Buckton

[Mark Buckton 1]

While it's true many newspapers use the vertical columns when printing articles, horizontal rows are being seen more often these days...

(Sign of approval...)

interesting that - haven't seen any L/R otherwise myself. Is it a local thing?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Could be. Seems the Yomiuri Shimbun does the same on occasion. See it mostly in the lifestyle sections and the like...

[Mark Buckton 1]

fast decloaking there TL - made me laugh the speed of that!

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

[paolo 0]

...

Imagine you were writing that ranks as 1,2,3 etc. Where would you put the number 1? On the top left of the chart or the top right? East is higher ranked and therefore goes on the left. Nothing to do with geography and everything to do with rank.

On the actual banzuke East is on the right side. (Sign of approval...)

I am afraid I am not following you. If I were writing them as ranks, I would write them simply one below the other, and this would not lead to any confusion. If I want to keep the two columns I personally would write West to the left and East to the right. After all, as you say, that's the way it is on the actual banzuke ! And to understand who is the best of the two on the same line you must know something about the banzuke; and if you know, you know that the East is better than the West even if it is on the right side...

[Asashosakari 19,653]

...

Imagine you were writing that ranks as 1,2,3 etc. Where would you put the number 1? On the top left of the chart or the top right? East is higher ranked and therefore goes on the left. Nothing to do with geography and everything to do with rank.

On the actual banzuke East is on the right side. (Sign of approval...)

I am afraid I am not following you. If I were writing them as ranks, I would write them simply one below the other, and this would not lead to any confusion. If I want to keep the two columns I personally would write West to the left and East to the right. After all, as you say, that's the way it is on the actual banzuke ! And to understand who is the best of the two on the same line you must know something about the banzuke; and if you know, you know that the East is better than the West even if it is on the right side...

I'd summarize things like this:

1) It's a good (though not necessarily correct) assumption that the printed banzuke has East on the right side because it was originally supposed to mirror the compass directions.

2) Somehow, East came to be seen as the superior side.

3) It's intuitively obvious that a higher-ranked object should be listed before a lower-ranked one, and in areas of communication where left-to-right writing is predominant now, that means: East Yokozuna | West Yokozuna, and so on.

As for 2), I can think of at least four possible reasons:

- because right-to-left writing (yes, I know, subordinate to the top-to-bottom direction) was exclusively in use when the printed banzuke style was developed and people reading a banzuke first perceived the East side, it became known as the more prestigious one, or

- East side rikishi were more successful and/or more popular in the formative years of sumo, and that's why East is more prestigious, or

- the current Kyokai is the successor of the Tokyo sumo organization, and with Tokyo located in the east they naturally considered the east side to be more prestigious for their own tournaments, or

- it's in fact the "seat of the emperor" thing.

Or a mix of several of these. I'd definitely be interested in reliable insight on this question.

[Harry 67]

Ever seen a world map from China or Japan? They are in the middle, the rest of Asia and Europe is to the left and north america is to the right, to the east of them. Most north americans are quite confused by a map where we aren't on the left side of the map! Most people and peoples think they are living in the centre of the universe.

This doesn't explain the banzuke of course but as Nishinoshima has pointed out the official one is not written how they are displayed on web pages. Different medium I guess.

On even numbered days, west is considered higher rank. East on odd numbered days.

[Kintamayama 45,524]

We had a huge discussion about that a long time ago on the ML. It is not a simple issue, and is clear cut almost like the tegatana discussion. When Sadogatake were here, I brought it up with the yobidashi and the lone gyoji. They started explaining it to me but I got dizzy after a while. I tend to think East is always on the right which is wrong, of course. MY specific question was not banzuke-related, but about the fact that when facing shomen ( what we call the "TV viewpoint"), East is on the left, which begged their question-"Who said shomen is North??"

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

People have never been known for consistency, especially when tradition for tradition's sake is involved. I guess that's the only valid explanation.

[Mark Buckton 1]

There were once two competing claims to the Japanese 'throne' - one won, the other lost. The 'North' Emperor won thus giving this direction 'legitimacy'

He then resided east of the vanquished and his representatives from the early 17th century on (sumo's first banzuke is dated to 1757) opted for Edo (now Tokyo) in the east as their HQ. The 'strongest' then came from the east when fighting those challenging their auhority.

To that end, North (in the East) is special - making the North (residence of the legitimate Emperor) the direction to which loyal subjects / warriors / samurai bowed each morning. It was also the point to which the heads of those dying in the Emporer's name (war etc) would be laid after death or the point to which they bowed prior to disembowelment.

The presence of the Emperor at the Kokugikan when viewing the dohyo is from the direction of the palace and the modern warriors bow in that direction in the special dohyo-iri.

The relevance of the East being important is linked ot the underlined above - and even in Kabuki, the East holds center stage (pun intended) as this was the area of more importance in that form of theatre.

That said - North beats East because of the Imperial link and at least one amateur club I know navigates its directions based on the above.

(Clapping wildly...)

[omoimori 0]

Or, as Kipling wrote:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,

Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;

But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed nor Birth,

When two strong men stand face to face,

tho' they come from the ends of the Earth!"

[Washuyama 641]

Or, as Kipling wrote:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,

Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;

But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed nor Birth,

When two strong men stand face to face,

tho' they come from the ends of the Earth!"

Kipling on a sumo site... Who woulda thunk it? (Clapping wildly...)

[paolo 0]

We had a huge discussion about that a long time ago on the ML. It is not a simple issue, and is clear cut almost like the tegatana discussion. ....

I am really happy to see that my original question is not as stupid as I might have thought !

..... I tend to think East is always on the right ....

... even happier !

[Mark Buckton 1]

The original thread dealing with this can be found at:

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?...amp;#entry67038

I still stand by what I said at the time

the obvious answer is the same as why west is favoured in places like ireland when people are given a choice. look at my name for example. irish people identify with the idea of west the way scandinavians identify with north, japanese with east, parts of america with the "deep south" and aussies with "down under".

your geographical position tends to be reinforced in art / sport / music / movies etc. often on a subtle level without people noticing it.

Nish, my text is based on confirming info received from the Kyokai 4/5 years ago - as far as sumo goes - so the image of identifying is interesting but personal on your part.

The rest (why East trumps west) is known to any half decent history stude at uni. Actually have a session at one of the 'Tokyo Six' tonight so will see what they say on it (thankfully not the first years) if time permits.

BTW - if your theory is to be expanded - what would a person from central Europe ID with? a Kazahk (sp?) An Indian? Someone from the IOM? :-)

Also, don't forget Japanese language history - some words have completely reversed thir meanings over the centuries. Kawaii comes to mind - once meant 'scary' (Sign of approval...)

[Sasanishiki 57]

There were once two competing claims to the Japanese 'throne' - one won, the other lost. The 'North' Emperor won thus giving this direction 'legitimacy'

He then resided east of the vanquished and his representatives from the early 17th century on (sumo's first banzuke is dated to 1757) opted for Edo (now Tokyo) in the east as their HQ. The 'strongest' then came from the east when fighting those challenging their auhority.

To that end, North (in the East) is special - making the North (residence of the legitimate Emperor) the direction to which loyal subjects / warriors / samurai bowed each morning. It was also the point to which the heads of those dying in the Emporer's name (war etc) would be laid after death or the point to which they bowed prior to disembowelment.

Um, yes and no. There were several 'emperors' of the Northern Line who are not acknowledged as legitimate. The Southern emperors during these 60 of so years are seen as legitimate (the emperor at this time was largely in the background as the Kamakura and Ashikaga shoguns ruled the country). Indeed the Northern Court had only developed after the emperor Go-Daigo rose against the soon-to-be ousted Kamakura shogun, who then installed a cousin of Go-Daigo to begin the Northern Line. The new Ashikaga Shoguns also backed the Northern Court and in 1392 the Southern Court was defeated and Emperor Go-Kameyama abdicated to Emperor Go-Komatsu of the Northern Line.

In successions of the imperial line the Northern Court emperors before Go-Komatsu are disregarded and the supposedly "unbroken line" continues from Go-Daigo, through a couple of Southern emperors and then from Go-Kameyama (South) to Go-Komatsu (North). The Imperial Household Agency apparently acknowledged the legitimacy of the Southern Line in 1911 because they had been the ones to keep the three sacred imperial treasures.

See here

[Gusoyama 104]

Or, as The Who wrote, " The north side of my town faced east, and the east was facing south"

[Jejima 1,414]

Missed this thread the first time around....

When playing mahjong, the seats are named 'East, South, West and North'. East is the most prestigious seat - in Japanese mahjong s/he collects more if he wins and pays out more if he loses. The East seat rotates amongst the players, when East has lost.

The 'compass' for mahjong is also reversed as we would normally think it (if North is at the top, East would be on the left). The explanation for this that I have been given by both Japanese and Chinese players is that this is how the gods see the compass when looking down from the heavens.

This may (or may not) be linked to the banzuke, But quite interesting, so worth sharing, I think (Exclamation...)

[Landene 0]

I would write them simply one below the other, and this would not lead to any confusion. If I want to keep the two columns I personally.

Regards

Landene

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Edited November 24, 2009 by Manekineko