Ozeki Back-Scratchers' Club

[Flohru 176]

I didn't see the Kaio vs Baruto bout, but was wondering whether this thread needs reviving or not....

No.

Baruto fanclub has a little doubt about it (why tsuppari instead of belt fight), but no clear evidence as you can see.

Tsuppari is a usual style nowadays to begin the bout for Baruto, so I'm not even surprised about that.

i am not surprised about tsuppari, but am not surprised about the outcome either (see my sekitotopick)...

for me it was clear backscratching.....

kaio having troubles to follow baruto on his way out....

i am a little more suprised that this thread comes up again and again.....as if there were doubts about the scratching....

Personally I can (and did) see Ozeki back-scratching happen on day 13 to 15, but not as early as day 9. I also think that your tone is a little bit inappropriate here: how often have we seen bouts like that before with the attacking, in fact superior rikishi suddenly finding himself in a position with his back to his opponent, then walking straight out without much more resistance? So often that we know it can happen without the bout being necessarely fixed. Also despite the performance of the last three or four days of this basho I don't think that Baruto was so convincingly good and Kaio so terribly bad lately, that it would be impossible for the latter to win a legit fight.

Statistically Kaio is 10-20 against Ozeki opponents since 2009 when this thread was started (not including Chiyotaikai against whom he was 5-1 which is not exactly a sign of back-scratching either). This is just about how I would have expected him to perform against guys like Kotooshu (with his remarking troubles in the second week nowadays) or Harumafuji and Kotomitsuki who don't/didn't look too impressive overall during that period either...

Edited September 20, 2010 by Flohru

[Gernobono 463]

I don't think that Baruto was so convincingly good and Kaio so terribly bad lately, that it would be impossible for the latter to win a legit fight.

thank you for giving your opinion

i think differently, as you know

and that was all i was saying

just to add: i do not think kaio has the strength to prevail in upper juryo just on his own....

[Fay 1,677]

I suspect Baruto was not real fit today. Yesterday he went out with the Yokozuna, They were heavyly drinking so that even his tsukebito was sick and got to sleep at 2 in the morning, getting up at six again. Minami was terrible tired, had a bout today which was quite important as he already had a result of 4-0 (ok if you don't want to the yusho it might be not important). We took him to the Kokugikan and he couldn't stop yawning the whole way.

Baruto wasn't fit too this morning, might just be a hangover and not the usual conspiracy theory.

[Harry 67]

I suspect Baruto was not real fit today. Yesterday he went out with the Yokozuna, They were heavyly drinking so that even his tsukebito was sick and got to sleep at 2 in the morning, getting up at six again. Minami was terrible tired, had a bout today which was quite important as he already had a result of 4-0 (ok if you don't want to the yusho it might be not important). We took him to the Kokugikan and he couldn't stop yawning the whole way.

Baruto wasn't fit too this morning, might just be a hangover and not the usual conspiracy theory.

Unless he wanted to be too hung over to fight properly... makes a nice excuse ;-) (A yokozuna...) You can't throw a conspiracy theorist off that easily...

[Gusoyama 99]

Unless he wanted to be too hung over to fight properly... makes a nice excuse ;-) (A yokozuna...) You can't throw a conspiracy theorist off that easily...

*points to signature*

I was suspicious of this bout when I saw the result, but I'm not so sure it was a case of OBSC.

[Jejima 1,358]

I suspect Baruto was not real fit today. Yesterday he went out with the Yokozuna, They were heavyly drinking so that even his tsukebito was sick and got to sleep at 2 in the morning, getting up at six again. Minami was terrible tired, had a bout today which was quite important as he already had a result of 4-0 (ok if you don't want to the yusho it might be not important). We took him to the Kokugikan and he couldn't stop yawning the whole way.

Baruto wasn't fit too this morning, might just be a hangover and not the usual conspiracy theory.

Okay, sumo is a different sport to others.... Drinking is part of the culture.... But, Hakuho has a real chance to make history with a record that probably would not be broken for at possibly 50 (maybe 100?) years.... I don't know, but maybe, just maybe, now may be a time to limit drinking to 3 or 4 beers a-night for this and the next basho?

[Tokyo Tom 0]

Fay posted: "I suspect Baruto was not real fit today. Yesterday he went out with the Yokozuna..." (sorry but I have not mastered how to add quotes on a reply)

I can understand going out with a rival between honbasho but- in the middle of the tournament? Baruto was 7-1 at that time and one loss off the pace for the lead. Maybe he thought he would let the Yokozuna "win" at drinking games so as to affect his performance the next day?

Jejima posted: "But, Hakuho has a real chance to make history with a record that probably would not be broken for at possibly 50 (maybe 100?) years.... "

I also agree- Hakuho has separated himself from the Ozeki because of his focus- why put oneself at a potential disadvantage by carousing around during the basho? I felt that Asashoryu's last offense was not that hit hit the bar owner while drunk- it was that he did it during the middle of a tournament! Would Tiger Woods go out to pick up waitresses during the middle of the Masters.... oh, never mind.

No matter the cause of Baruto's performance- hat's off to Kaio for seizing the advantage in his bout and claiming the win. That bout looked pretty legit to me and Kaio continues to show "Ozeki Pride"!

[Kintamayama 44,667]

I don't think it was fixed because Baruto was 7-1 going in to today. No one throws a yusho chance no matter what. I feel the rest is moot. Baruto had him finished, but slipped-anyone can see that.

[Gernobono 463]

I don't think it was fixed because Baruto was 7-1 going in to today. No one throws a yusho chance no matter what. I feel the rest is moot. Baruto had him finished, but slipped-anyone can see that.

Yusho Chance?...you must be joking....

about not throwing the bout you might be right....

[Kintamayama 44,667]

I don't think it was fixed because Baruto was 7-1 going in to today. No one throws a yusho chance no matter what. I feel the rest is moot. Baruto had him finished, but slipped-anyone can see that.

Yusho Chance?...you must be joking....

about not throwing the bout you might be right....

Theoretically speaking, theoretically speaking. If he was 5-3, I could understand, but 7-1? No way.

BTW, my inside source tells me Hakuhou will lose this basho.

[Asashosakari 19,034]

BTW, my inside source tells me Hakuhou will lose this basho.

My "inside source" (read: gut feeling) says the same. I think one of the ozekis will beat him.

Edit: Given the thread I should probably add - no, not Kaio.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Flohru 176]

I don't think that Baruto was so convincingly good and Kaio so terribly bad lately, that it would be impossible for the latter to win a legit fight.

thank you for giving your opinion

i think differently, as you know

and that was all i was saying

just to add: i do not think kaio has the strength to prevail in upper juryo just on his own....

Yes, I know and respect your opinion, but you have to admit that it is hard for any Sumo fan to share it - what does it mean if someone with an impressive 61-22 record against Komusubi and high Maegashira opponents in 2009/10 in fact has not even Juryo strength anymore and only survives because of back-scratching or whatever?

Edit: I would be a very happy man if Kaio would be the one to stop Hakuho's streak - just dreaming. :)

Edited September 20, 2010 by Flohru

[Harry 67]

Kaio beating Hakuho would make for a great story for sure. One worthy of the best puroresu storylines (A yokozuna...)

[Gernobono 463]

I would be a very happy man if Kaio would be the one to stop Hakuho's streak - just dreaming. :)

believe it or not......i would also be happy, as i like kaio, like many do, just because he is around for so long

[Kotoviki 16]

FWIW there is way too much drinking heavily during the basho with or without your opponents and this seems to be a big part of the culture. During every recent basho I know Baruto drank heavily with the yokozuna and with Harumafuji as well.

Not only in sekitori ranks others are drinking heavily as well.... and on the other hand in the past 4 days we've had dinner with 6 different rikishi who usually like to drink beer but said they don't want to drink during the basho at all!! So there are both types.

Many rikishi from the lowest to the highest ranks are often pressured into drinking by kokenkai members or other rikishi. That is a shame. Drinking because of a losing streak or celebrating a winning streak... or just drinking....

As for Baruto we were out drinking with him tonight as well as another rikishi and got back to our hotel around 2am. But both Satoyama and Minami had gone home by taxi much earlier. So no, the tsukebito are not always forced to drink late with sekitori. There are many tsukebito who are invited out with the sekitori and drinking all night and there are yet others who are forced to clean up after and take care of vomiting sekitori all night such that they get no sleep. This behavior is not new to sumo and has been going on and will go on. Some tsukebito are happy they get the chance to go out and others are not. Nobody I know is happy to be tending to a very drunk sekitori as well.

As for today's match (ok it is almost 4am so make that yesterdays' match...) Baruto's knee was really hurting him which led to his loss. There was no match fixing involved. As many here know Baruto's knee is his worst enemy!!!!

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

I don't think it was fixed because Baruto was 7-1 going in to today. No one throws a yusho chance no matter what. I feel the rest is moot. Baruto had him finished, but slipped-anyone can see that.

This is basically all the evidence I needed to dispel any back scratching in this bout. However, the mtch itself is the biggest indicator. Kaio just got the better of him.

[Sashohitowa 6]

Can some OBSC-theorist comment on the Kaio-Kotooshu result?

I would like to see how that fits in your theory.

Thanks.

(Holiday feeling...)

[Gernobono 463]

Can some OBSC-theorist comment on the Kaio-Kotooshu result?

I would like to see how that fits in your theory.

Thanks.

(Holiday feeling...)

although i was expecting a kotooshu-dive, there is plenty of time for kaio to get his kk

see him down harumafuji tomorrow.....

[Kintamayama 44,667]

although i was expecting a kotooshu-dive, there is plenty of time for kaio to get his kk

see him down harumafuji tomorrow.....

That is very possible, but Baruto did not dive. U has a few "easy" opponents and should be able to go 3-2 in the remaining days.

[ryafuji 811]

Kaio beating Hakuho would make for a great story for sure. One worthy of the best puroresu storylines ;-)

Well let's not forget Kaio was the last man to beat Hakuho before he went on his winning streak... would provide a nice symmetry if he were to end the streak as well.

[Asashosakari 19,034]

although i was expecting a kotooshu-dive, there is plenty of time for kaio to get his kk

see him down harumafuji tomorrow.....

That is very possible, but Baruto did not dive. U has a few "easy" opponents and should be able to go 3-2 in the remaining days.

On the other hand, a Kaio win over Harumafuji would put the latter into a similar predicament and arguably cause the next wave of OBSC discussion here...2-2 against Aran/Osh/Bart/Hak needed.

[XiaoTan 93]

although i was expecting a kotooshu-dive, there is plenty of time for kaio to get his kk

see him down harumafuji tomorrow.....

That is very possible, but Baruto did not dive. U has a few "easy" opponents and should be able to go 3-2 in the remaining days.

On the other hand, a Kaio win over Harumafuji would put the latter into a similar predicament and arguably cause the next wave of OBSC discussion here...2-2 against Aran/Osh/Bart/Hak needed.

Well, Aran and Bart should be able to provide that with comfort if we subscribed to the theory. ;-)

[Asashosakari 19,034]

Well, Aran and Bart should be able to provide that with comfort if we subscribed to the theory. ;-)

Assuming Baruto doesn't beat Hakuho the day before to (sorta) put himself back into the yusho race. ;-) We could still have a three-way finish at 13-2.

Haruma-Aran on Day 12 should be an interesting bout...it's not that I consider Harumafuji incapable of beating him or anything, but we do know Aran's more than happy to engage in tricky stuff if makekoshi avoidance is the call of the day. And he's up 2-1 in their bouts.

[Gusoyama 99]

I don't remember the pretzel logic, but I think that OBSC "rules" only apply when demotion is involved.

[Asameshimae 220]

Honestly, I could see it, even this early in the basho. I think we mostly agree that back scratching goes on to whatever degree. And, the kyokai/sumo is in some tough times right now; they see how much the fans love Kaio (who gets more spontaneous applause than Kaio when he steps up?). It could very well be that "they" (feel free to speculate on who "they" is) understand that Kaio must be kept in b/c people like to see this old horse keep at it. Considering the situtation, honestly the Hakuho win streak deserves the same scrutiny, though his poise and superior sumo are obvious (as opposed to Kaio who sometimes looks like a stiff wind could knock him over).