Ozeki Back-Scratchers' Club

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

This is why he is not in good form since a few days

very entertaining when some users are still trying to make serious comments about this whole ozeki-scheme.... (Detective...) (Applauding...) (Applauding...)

I try (Applauding...)

[Harry 67]

So Taikai will beat Baruto tomorrow (after he was owned by Takekaze I can't even say it will be a stretch), dramatically getting kachikoshi on senshuraku to escape kadoban, yet again.

Kotomitsuki gets the gift of Kaio tomorrow so will safely get 8-7 KK.

All safe! Easy as pie.

[Vikanohara 171]

Match fixing is inherent to sports in general and to contact sports in particular. But mostly this is for betting purposes. Or to get its place in the hall of fame. While in sumo, due to its unique ranking system, it's for ranking purposes. At least it only plays its part at the end of a basho, when some are in desperate need of some more victories, to keep their rank or to climb to a higher one.

Personally I don't mind that this way a few wrestlers once having shown quite some potential are allowed to have a few more years on the dohyo. While otherwise they might end their career earlier. And after all, it will only last until there are enough Sekiwake, Komusubi & Maegashira around to keep an Ozeki winless except for the bouts he was able to fix with his fellow Ozeki. As long as an Ozeki can win 5 bouts against the lower ranked rikishi, he will be helped to get his KK if possible. I'm pretty sure soon we'll see an 7-7 Ozeki vs. another 7-7 Ozeki on senshuraku. Now that would be awesome ! (Sign of approval...)

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

I'm pretty sure soon we'll see an 7-7 Ozeki vs. another 7-7 Ozeki on senshuraku. Now that would be awesome ! (Sign of approval...)

Last time a 8-6 Ozeki wins against a 7-7 Ozeki was in september 1992 : O1w Konishiki 9-6 oshidashi O1e Kirishima 7-8

since 1992 we had 5 fights with a 8-6 Ozeki versus a 7-7 Ozeki... 4 times (with Kaio - Kotomitsuki tomorrow) in the last 7 bashos !! The 7-7 Ozeki always was from the Sadogatake Beya (Kotooshu or Kotomitsuki) ...

in bold the winner

2006.07 15 O3w Tochiazuma 8-7 yoritaoshi O2w Kotooshu 8-7

2008.03 15 O2w Chiyotaikai 8-7 tsukiotoshi O1w Kotomitsuki 8-7

2008.05 15 O1w Kaio 8-7 okuritaoshi O1e Kotomitsuki 8-7

2008.11 15 O2e Chiyotaikai 8-7 hikiotoshi O2w Kotooshu 8-7

2009.05 15 O2e Kaio 8-6 O2w Kotomitsuki 7-7

7-7 Ozeki versus a 7-7 Ozeki

click HERE

I'm sure it will never change (Sigh...)

[Asashosakari 19,029]

Last time a 8-6 Ozeki wins against a 7-7 Ozeki was in september 1992 : O1w Konishiki 9-6 oshidashi O1e Kirishima 7-8

Why did you limit it to 8-6 ozeki on the kachikoshi side? There were two other bouts like that.

[Gernobono 463]

I'm pretty sure soon we'll see an 7-7 Ozeki vs. another 7-7 Ozeki on senshuraku. Now that would be awesome ! (Sign of approval...)

Last time a 8-6 Ozeki wins against a 7-7 Ozeki was in september 1992 : O1w Konishiki 9-6 oshidashi O1e Kirishima 7-8

since 1992 we had 5 fights with a 8-6 Ozeki versus a 7-7 Ozeki... 4 times (with Kaio - Kotomitsuki tomorrow) in the last 7 bashos !! The 7-7 Ozeki always was from the Sadogatake Beya (Kotooshu or Kotomitsuki) ...

in bold the winner

2006.07 15 O3w Tochiazuma 8-7 yoritaoshi O2w Kotooshu 8-7

2008.03 15 O2w Chiyotaikai 8-7 tsukiotoshi O1w Kotomitsuki 8-7

2008.05 15 O1w Kaio 8-7 okuritaoshi O1e Kotomitsuki 8-7

2008.11 15 O2e Chiyotaikai 8-7 hikiotoshi O2w Kotooshu 8-7

2009.05 15 O2e Kaio 8-6 O2w Kotomitsuki 7-7

7-7 Ozeki versus a 7-7 Ozeki

click HERE

I'm sure it will never change (Sigh...)

thank you for this stats...

i still remember a result that stunned me..

it was a 8-6 musoyama beating a 7-7 wakanosato on day 15.....it was kyusho basho 2003 (had to look it up in the database)

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

Last time a 8-6 Ozeki wins against a 7-7 Ozeki was in september 1992 : O1w Konishiki 9-6 oshidashi O1e Kirishima 7-8

Why did you limit it to 8-6 ozeki on the kachikoshi side? There were two other bouts like that.

i still remember a result that stunned me..

it was a 8-6 musoyama beating a 7-7 wakanosato on day 15.....it was kyusho basho 2003

You are right i should take the Ozekis 8-6 to 14-0 before the senshuraku... and all the others rikishi too

HERE

[Peterao 3]

And personally, I would like to ask everyone, what is the problem with the "Ozeki Back Scratchers" club anyway? It's certainly not unique to sumo...look to cycling and how the pelaton decides things, and how top ranking people help each other out.

It takes quite a lot of effort to become an ozeki, so I have no problem with the "club members" doing their best to assist each other.

Er... well, because it is cheating? Because it is pretending? Because is a sham sold as real competition?

There are all sorts of shams sold as real competition. Pro wrestling depended on a certain segment of the population believing the competition was real well into the 80's. Then various events blew even the smallest fragments of believability out of the water. And yet pro wrestling is as popular as ever, despite still marketing itself as real competition when it obviously is not.

I mean, if match fixing is alright, why limit one's acceptance of it to ozeki? Everyone in makuuchi worked bloody hard to get there too, so I guess they can all swap kachi koshi and we'll end up with a division of septugenarians.

Personally, I care more about the tapestry of entire basho and careers then the threads of individual matches. If Chiyotaikai has the skill to engineer a comeback from 5-7 behind the scenes, that is every bit as impressive and entertaining to me as three straight gachinko wins.

But that's just my opinion, I guess. I also believe we should let baseball players juice up to their heart's content, so what do I know?

[James H 0]

But that's just my opinion, I guess. I also believe we should let baseball players juice up to their heart's content, so what do I know?

That's fair enough. There are plenty of ethical / moral dimensions to things like steroids, and apparently to match fixing. I tend to think that invoking pro wrestling in an argument about match fixing muddies the waters - if only because pro wrestling is not a sport. it is entertainment dressed up as sport.

I know I'll get pm'd by people saying that sumo is basically the same... and maybe I am looking for the impossible if I want to see "clean" sumo day in, day out.

But the most annoying thing about match fixing, or steroids for that matter, is that condoning either in the current climate (where both are banned) means you accept that some people will be denied success because they played by the rules, and others will be allowed to succeed by doing things that are not in the spirit of the sport. I can't square match fixing, even if it is between veterans who have "earned" the right to hang about for years, with sumo's supposed honour code. And I don't see why gachinko wrestlers have to make a decision to start throwing matches if they want to move up the banzuke. (btw I am not saying that is the only way to move up the banzuke - but it is one way).

If Chiyotaikai has the skill to engineer a comeback from 5-7 behind the scenes, that is every bit as impressive and entertaining to me as three straight gachinko wins.

I wouldn't be that impressed - it only requires him to enter the final few days with a losing record. Things have an amazing ability to move into place all by themselves.

[Peterao 3]

I tend to think that invoking pro wrestling in an argument about match fixing muddies the waters - if only because pro wrestling is not a sport. it is entertainment dressed up as sport.

I know I'll get pm'd by people saying that sumo is basically the same... and maybe I am looking for the impossible if I want to see "clean" sumo day in, day out.

I think that you, like a lot of people are confusing Ozumo with sumo. Sumo is a very real sport fought in the amateur ranks of high school and college, much like amateur wrestling. Ozumo is an organization dedicated to preserving historical sumo traditions, some of which have been in place since pre-Edo times. To maintain relevance in today's world, they require the best sumo athletes and as close to real competition as they can get. But won/loss records are not the highest priority, so pre-determined and purchased outcomes are not nearly as big a concern as it would be for something such as baseball. Nevertheless, public appeal is tied to being able to enjoy the matches, and it's necessary to present an outer face of legitimacy to achieve that.

If you want to promote legitimate sumo, may I suggest that you report upon the national amateur sumo championships in your newspaper?

[Doitsuyama 1,178]

If you want to promote legitimate sumo, may I suggest that you report upon the national amateur sumo championships in your newspaper?

You don't really think that amateur sumo (or amateur wrestling) are clean and pure as opposed to Ozumo? Hmmm....

[Peterao 3]

If you want to promote legitimate sumo, may I suggest that you report upon the national amateur sumo championships in your newspaper?

You don't really think that amateur sumo (or amateur wrestling) are clean and pure as opposed to Ozumo? Hmmm....

Well, you can find conspiracies everywhere if you look hard enough for them...

Nice 270 degree midair spin by Baruto. His post sumo future in WWE is secure.

[kame 0]

Baruto's dive made me cringe... (I am not worthy...)

And after that KaioU vs Mickey... (Sign of approval...)

[Terarno 46]

Is self-nage a new kimarite ?

[Peterao 3]

Is self-nage a new kimarite ?

Okanenage?

[HenryK 38]

For me this Ozezki 8-7 re-insurance business is no joke, rather, it takes a lot of joy out of the sport. I'd much rather have seen Taikai fight on as a Sekiwake than being served yet another fabricated result.

Some hard thinking would be required on how the incentives for Ozeki collusion can be reduced (they can never be eliminated, of course). Such as have a kadoban Ozeki fight the other Ozeki early in the tournament.

But this pre-supposes a will to fix something that is visibly broken.

[Asameshimae 220]

For me this Ozezki 8-7 re-insurance business is no joke, rather, it takes a lot of joy out of the sport. I'd much rather have seen Taikai fight on as a Sekiwake than being served yet another fabricated result.

Some hard thinking would be required on how the incentives for Ozeki collusion can be reduced (they can never be eliminated, of course). Such as have a kadoban Ozeki fight the other Ozeki early in the tournament.

But this pre-supposes a will to fix something that is visibly broken.

It's not like any of this stuff is new. And with the way the demotion for Ozeki works, such abuse is going to be rampant. I wouldn't be surprised if the people at the top thought about that even when they first installed the current system. Japanese don't seem to mind as much as you would think - things being set up just so. I remember the story of a long while back when the Yakult Swallows finally managed to beat the Giants and take the Japan series pennant. Their owner, a huge Giants fan, let them know how happy he was, but asked them in so many words to be sure to try to lose next time around, b/c it's just not right when the Giants don't win regularly.

[Asameshimae 220]

I remember the story of a long while back when the Yakult Swallows finally managed to beat the Giants and take the Japan series pennant. Their owner, a huge Giants fan, let them know how happy he was, but asked them in so many words to be sure to try to lose next time around, b/c it's just not right when the Giants don't win regularly.

That's from "Ya gotta have Wa". Matsuzono was the guys name. Story is true. I know his niece well. Her uncle was an out-and-out Giants fan despite being the owner of a rival team. He never tried to hide the fact.

Yep, that's where I read it, I was going to mention this but then I didn't. Was his niece a Giants fan?

[James H 0]

It's not like any of this stuff is new. And with the way the demotion for Ozeki works, such abuse is going to be rampant.

That's a fact. It'd be nice if once in a while that committee for the prevention of unspirited sumo met and knocked a few heads together, though.

Or if there was an ozeki deliberation council, and Makiko Uchidate was a member. :-P

[Doitsuyama 1,178]

For me this Ozezki 8-7 re-insurance business is no joke, rather, it takes a lot of joy out of the sport. I'd much rather have seen Taikai fight on as a Sekiwake than being served yet another fabricated result.

Some hard thinking would be required on how the incentives for Ozeki collusion can be reduced (they can never be eliminated, of course). Such as have a kadoban Ozeki fight the other Ozeki early in the tournament.

But this pre-supposes a will to fix something that is visibly broken.

I made that suggestion earlier on, just let the ozeki meet early, and not only the kadoban ones, because non kadoban kachi-koshi are not always kosher as well. There will be enough interesting bouts left later in the basho - heck, even more because the ozeki match-ups done this way just aren't interesting. No one said anything about it though, so I wonder what's wrong with my solution?

[Asashosakari 19,029]

I made that suggestion earlier on, just let the ozeki meet early, and not only the kadoban ones, because non kadoban kachi-koshi are not always kosher as well. There will be enough interesting bouts left later in the basho - heck, even more because the ozeki match-ups done this way just aren't interesting. No one said anything about it though, so I wonder what's wrong with my solution?

Why not. I'd be totally in favour of having bouts involving kadoban ozeki in the first week, and slightly less in favour (though I could be convinced) of having the remaining ozeki bouts a bit earlier than now, say to be finished around Day 12 or 13.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Asameshimae 220]

For me this Ozezki 8-7 re-insurance business is no joke, rather, it takes a lot of joy out of the sport. I'd much rather have seen Taikai fight on as a Sekiwake than being served yet another fabricated result.

Some hard thinking would be required on how the incentives for Ozeki collusion can be reduced (they can never be eliminated, of course). Such as have a kadoban Ozeki fight the other Ozeki early in the tournament.

But this pre-supposes a will to fix something that is visibly broken.

I made that suggestion earlier on, just let the ozeki meet early, and not only the kadoban ones, because non kadoban kachi-koshi are not always kosher as well. There will be enough interesting bouts left later in the basho - heck, even more because the ozeki match-ups done this way just aren't interesting. No one said anything about it though, so I wonder what's wrong with my solution?

I realize you are just thinking out loud, but, don't hold your breath. It still nags me after all this time that active coaches act as judges and for their own wrestlers; and no one see this as a problem inside sumo, at least not vocally.

[Doitsuyama 1,178]

I realize you are just thinking out loud, but, don't hold your breath. It still nags me after all this time that active coaches act as judges and for their own wrestlers; and no one see this as a problem inside sumo, at least not vocally.

It's all a nice theory, but stranger things have happened. Now about the oyakata acting as shinpan, this didn't lead to big controversies outside sumo as well, or? Just look at referees in other sports, and I'd even wager the bet that the shinpan are doing a better job than most of their colleagues.

[Asameshimae 220]

I realize you are just thinking out loud, but, don't hold your breath. It still nags me after all this time that active coaches act as judges and for their own wrestlers; and no one see this as a problem inside sumo, at least not vocally.

It's all a nice theory, but stranger things have happened. Now about the oyakata acting as shinpan, this didn't lead to big controversies outside sumo as well, or? Just look at referees in other sports, and I'd even wager the bet that the shinpan are doing a better job than most of their colleagues.

Yes, the shinpan have always seemed fair and accurate, even given the above fact.

[Kozaru 0]

I've updated my old thread about the Ozeki co-operation with new data points. Check it out:

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry169568

Keep in mind that this doesn't even include stuff like we saw yesterday, where an MK Sekiwake will fall all over himself to help an Ozeki, or when a non-KK Ozeki will lose (ie. Mitsuki vs. Chiyo Day 14), when he knows his KK will be earned the next day, due to club membership.