Musoyama

[Jesinofuji 11]

He's 5-5 with 5 days left. He'll have to win at least 3 more and has Wakanosato, Chiyotaikai, and Asashoryu to face still.

[Tumppi 0]

I voted yes.. I think he'll only lose to Chiotaikai and Asashoryu. It is possible for him to shove out Wakanosato.

[QttP 0]

I voted yes.. I think he'll only lose to Chiotaikai and Asashoryu. It is possible for him to shove out Wakanosato.

That's a possibility. Although Chiyotaikai is not in good shape himself, so Musoyama can beat him too. And he can beat Asashoryu as well, if something strikes him (although that's less likely). Overall, I think he's gonna scrape 3 wins out of the 5.

[furanohana 3]

I voted No. I think he can make 2 wins, but I really don't see him having 3.

But I already though hed get demoted the last time he was kadoban... So I'm not sure if I'm very objective here, or just "throw musoyama out of ozeki" - like...

[Jesinofuji 11]

I voted no. Things can change so quickly in Sumo. Tomorrow he faces Chiyotaikai, a bout which I see him losing. Then he will be faced with needing to win 3 out of 4, 2 certainly being quite difficult matches.

[Zenjimoto 40]

He's surprised us before when we mostly gave up on him... so I voted yes, even though I wish he would finally take the rank that he really deserves... Sekiwake...

[tominishiki 0]

I voted no because in the second part of the basho he never wins more than 2 bouts in the second half of a basho so I think that in the next banzuke he will be seki zeki

Edited November 18, 2003 by tominishiki

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

You mean sekiwake? >:-( And actually he's won more than 2 out of the last 8 bouts in a basho numerous times...

I voted no. He'll get 2 out of 5, and will be demoted. He'll be sanyaku for a while after that, but I think his peak is over.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Sekizeki is a word sometimes used of an ozeki who's dropped to sekiwake and is able to return to ozeki in the immediately next basho if he gets at least ten wins. Ozewake is a sekiwake who ought to be already an ozeki. Both words are naturally completely inofficial.

[Oikeassa 0]

I voted no--and I would be surprised if he even gets to 7 wins. I agree with Zenjimoto-seki--sekiwake is the rank Musoyama deserves. He also deserves credit for being an overachieving Ozeki, but really makes a good Sekiwake. I think he should be proud of his peformance.

Edited November 18, 2003 by Oikeassa

[Jesinofuji 11]

I'm going to take it a step farther and say I don't think he really even deserves to be a Sekiwake. A good sekiwake is someone who can be thought of as having a shot at someday becomming an Ozeki, and if Musoyama falls, Miyabiyama will fly before he ever comes close to Ozeki again. Komusubi is the rank he deserves the most, or maybe even Maegashira 1 or 2. Lets keep Sekiwake pure and filled by a Wakanosato on one side, and then a rotating Kyokutenho, Mickey Mouse (yuck after this basho tho), and even an occasional Takamisakari on the other.

[Takanobaka 0]

I voted no--and I would be surprised if he even gets to 7 wins. I agree with Zenjimoto-seki--sekiwake is the rank Musoyama deserves.

By now, the rank he deserves is closer to Maegashira 4 W. Still, I voted yes because he always seems to pull wins out of his butt in life or death situations.

*Edit* Got beaten to the punch by a few seconds....

Edited November 18, 2003 by Takanobaka

[Fujisan 533]

I voted yes,not that he deserves to be but he has more lives than a cat.

[QttP 0]

Nobody likes Musoyama...

[Jesinofuji 11]

I don't dislike Musoyama, its just that he's overstayed his welcome in the Ozeki ranks. You know how they have those special one minute interviews for rikishi who beat Ozeki or Yokozuna. Well, they seem to have lost their meaning as they are happening way too frequently. I mean, if a rank and file maegashira pulls off a win vs. Chiyotaikai or a healthy Kaio, thats one thing, but beating Musoyama just doesn't seem like such a daunting task anymore for most mid to upper level rikishi.

[Amanogawa 79]

Sekizeki is a word sometimes used of an ozeki who's dropped to sekiwake and is able to return to ozeki in the immediately next basho if he gets at least ten wins. Ozewake is a sekiwake who ought to be already an ozeki. Both words are naturally completely inofficial.

I didn't know that.... Both sound so cute :-) , though it may certainly seroiusly strenuous if you're facing ether of the situations. (Sigh...) And I know one shining-muscled boy... who'd perfectly fit in for ozewake..( see my avatar, just in case.... (Weeping...) )

if a rank and file maegashira pulls off a win vs. Chiyotaikai or a healthy Kaio, thats one thing, but beating Musoyama just doesn't seem like such a daunting task anymore for most mid to upper level rikishi.

Sadly I'd agree. At least Musoyama as of now ( I voted "no" )... "Seki"as in

ozeki originally means "barrier ( I won't go in detail here but this has a lot to

do with Japanese history )" or "checking station/checking gate" you can

never cross very easily. And Ozeki should be the very VERY great strong "seki"...

Edited November 19, 2003 by Amanogawa

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Nobody likes Musoyama...

I must say I don't like his sumo much these days. He's much too often too weak for an Ozeki, and the affair of "I'm eh... injured... eh... give me kosho..." wasn't exactly pretty... Still, he has succeeded in staying Ozeki, and as long as he does, he has to be regarded as one as well as measured as one. If he comes back to form it would be great, but more likely he is on his way out, at least from the Ozeki ranks.

I don't agree with those who say he's not even Sekiwake quality though. I think most have a view of how a rikishi SHOULD perform as Yokozuna or Ozeki or Sekiwake which is much too high and rather describes the rikishi ranked too low than what should signify what can be expected of a "typical" rikishi of that rank. Musoyama seems pretty much of Sekiwake quality, but definitely not more, to me. I'd say for example Wakanosato in a historical comparison is much more an Ozeki who hasn't been promoted than a rikishi showing what being a Sekiwake is all about.

And last but not least, I'm more and more actually starting to like Musoyama after he has had a few intelligent comments after matches regarding for example Musashimarus status. But that doesn't change my view on him as an Ozeki... I must admit that I have never been a real fan of Musoyama though.

[Kashunowaka 300]

Nobody likes Musoyama...

I have respect for Musoyama. When he gets to do his own sumo, he has a very powerful forward drive. He managed to stay in sanyaku most of the time during the years 1994-2000, when the yokozuna and ozeki contingent usually was very strong. I thought it was only logical that he would put together a successful three-basho run eventually, which he did in 2000.

He was demoted immediately after a kyujo and a 4-11, but was re-promoted again after a 10-5 at sekiwake. I think that shows a lot of fighting spirit. Compare him to his heya-mates Dejima and Miyabiyama, who were promoted to ozeki at about the same time as Musoyama. He has outlasted them with several years, and has had a better average record as ozeki.

So in a way, I like Musoyama. I was very impressed when he pulled off a kachi-koshi against difficult opposition after being 3-6 in Natsu basho. He might surprise us yet again.

And I don't think the henka-haters have very much on Musoyama. (Weeping...)

[Zuikakuyama 1]

I dont at all doubt Musoyama's abilities, or his qualification to be Ozeki.

He managed to stay consistenly in Sanyaku during one of the toughest phases in recent memory ('94-'00), and perhaps even the last century.

Of course he is going to get worse and worse. He is already 31, and that is the natural progression of things. As comparison, Ake, Taka, and Waka was already retired or just about to be retired at the same age. And on top of that, the number of his absences are no more than any one of the yokozunas.

The Kyokai has objective rules on how ranks are given, and if he can maintain KK status, then who are we to question whether he deserves the rank or not.

Finally, being an Ozeki doesn't mean that you must be a consistent yokozuna candidate. If that were the case, then all sekiwakes must be strong ozeki candidates, all kumosubis must be sekiwake candidates, and so on for the high megashiras.

To me, Ozeki just means that you have gotten the 33 wins over 3 tournaments at Sanyaku ranks, and the rank is bestowed upon you for that remarkable achievement. But of course, if you are a strong candidate for the next higher rank, then perhaps you would eventually achieve that higher rank, and be called as such.

BTW, after his win over takai today, his chances are definitely looking up.

One more thing, he is definitely going to retire soon, and with his passing, one of the old guards during the golden era will have passed. I am sure he will be missed. In the meantime, I am still rooting for him, because even if he doesnt deserve to be an Ozeki now, he has more than earned the right to that rank, and to be considered to be one of the greats.

Edited November 19, 2003 by Zuikakuyama

[Jesinofuji 11]

I voted yes,not that he deserves to be but he has more lives than a cat.

Yes, after todays match I think I believe it: he does have more lives than a cat. I'm beginning to think he'll still be an Ozeki when he's Ichinoya's age.

[Exil 301]

According to guesses made elsewhere, Musoyama's situation looks like this:

Day	Opponent	Previous meetings
13	Tamanoshima (8-4)	6-2
14	Kyokushuzan (8-4)	12-8
15	Wakanosato (5-7)	13-6

He needs two out of three. Still 50-50, I guess. (Juggling...) Will he retire if he goes mk? Is three retired sekitori in a basho a record? Will the Joker succeed in his evil plot to ruin Gotham City? Tune in for the exciting finale, same bat-time, same bat-channel. :-D

I vuoold elsu leeke-a tu cungretoolete-a Keshoonooeka-zekee fur feending zee perffect efeter. Bork Bork Bork! B-)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I voted yes,not that he deserves to be but he has more lives than a cat.

Yes, after todays match I think I believe it: he does have more lives than a cat. I'm beginning to think he'll still be an Ozeki when he's Ichinoya's age.

Apropos more lives than a cat, I see Takanonami is still in, despite his bad record. I suppose I'll have to congratulate whoever proposed when Takanonami was first on his way down that he considered him a survivor that probably still would be the last of the five greats of the mid-90s to go. Well he was right (don't remember who it was though and the mailing list archives still don't work...) B-)

[Fujisan 533]

I have him down to beat Tamanoshima tonight and I reckon he will win at least one more.

[QttP 0]

Apropos more lives than a cat, I see Takanonami is still in, despite his bad record. I suppose I'll have to congratulate whoever proposed when Takanonami was first on his way down that he considered him a survivor that probably still would be the last of the five greats of the mid-90s to go. Well he was right (don't remember who it was though and the mailing list archives still don't work...)  B-)

It wouldn't take a genious to make that guess... I reckon Takanonami was still ozeki in 2000. After Musashimaru's promotion, Takanonami remained the only one of the 5 greats that hasn't reached the rank of Yokozuna. Hence, he could go on (and has done so), even when his performance dropped significantly. I'm sure that if he had been yokozuna, he'd be kindly invited to retire a long time ago.

Edited November 21, 2003 by QttP

[Jesinofuji 11]

Well this poll comes to a close. Most people, 54% and including myself were wrong. He's earned himself another 4 months of Ozekihood, and will probably take it easy in Hatsu.