Asa's Day 3 Dohyo-iri - a question

[Treblemaker 254]

In his Day 3 Dohyo-iri, Asa entered between Aminishki and Sakari. AFAIK, the order of entry and exit is: dewsweeper-yokozuna-sword bearer, or positions to that effect.

At the end, Asa basically rushed off the dohyo, well ahead of his two mates, and was well down the runway as the other two were just leaving the dohyo area.

Was this some sort of breach of protocol? Does it matter who leaves first? And (this I can't seem to find anywhere) other than chasing the spirits off the dohyo, what are the other uses of symbolism used in this ceremony? I understand that it has ties to a ritual of religious backgrounds, but what of the smaller symbols (the sword, the dewsweeper role, etc)?

[omoimori 0]

I can't say whether there was any error in ritual, but all of the Makuuchi dohyo-iri were out of kilter. They were running behind, some people were trying to speed things up; some were keeping to more conventional speed; the yobidashi who were striking the ki couldn't seem to maintain a real rhythm; it was crowded in the hanimichi; it was a very hot day in temporary facilities. All in all it looked like nobody had ever done a dohyo-iri before. Some rikishi seemed amused, some a little peeved, some lost. Just a little confusion with human beings thrown off their normal timing.

I was wondering, though, as I watched on TV if that venue meets whatever fire code must exist in Japan.

[_the_mind_ 0]

it is my understanding, and possibly wrong understanding, that the presentation of the sword is not religious but samurai in nature. a show of arms to enforce that back then everyone fight equally with no weapon and if someone cheats with a weapon, there is an armed samurai present to handle anyone who breaks the rules of no weapon against an unarmed opponent.

it might be wrong though(i feel like i read it somewhere but i dont recall where), if i am completely off then i apologize for making everyone dumber LOL

[kaiguma 0]

  _the_mind_ said:

it is my understanding, and possibly wrong understanding, that the presentation of the sword is not religious but samurai in nature. a show of arms to enforce that back then everyone fight equally with no weapon and if someone cheats with a weapon, there is an armed samurai present to handle anyone who breaks the rules of no weapon against an unarmed opponent.

it might be wrong though(i feel like i read it somewhere but i dont recall where), if i am completely off then i apologize for making everyone dumber LOL

Samurai were a deeply religious warrior class.... so the two are by no means mutually exclusive, just fyi

[_the_mind_ 0]

  kaiguma said:

  _the_mind_ said:

it is my understanding, and possibly wrong understanding, that the presentation of the sword is not religious but samurai in nature. a show of arms to enforce that back then everyone fight equally with no weapon and if someone cheats with a weapon, there is an armed samurai present to handle anyone who breaks the rules of no weapon against an unarmed opponent.

it might be wrong though(i feel like i read it somewhere but i dont recall where), if i am completely off then i apologize for making everyone dumber LOL

Samurai were a deeply religious warrior class.... so the two are by no means mutually exclusive, just fyi

im aware, but i kind of doubt the baring of arms in a display of potential aggression if need be is religious in nature.(...although i could be wrong)

Edited July 16, 2009 by _the_mind_

[Shomishuu 0]

  omoimori said:

I can't say whether there was any error in ritual, but all of the Makuuchi dohyo-iri were out of kilter. They were running behind, some people were trying to speed things up; some were keeping to more conventional speed; the yobidashi who were striking the ki couldn't seem to maintain a real rhythm; it was crowded in the hanimichi; it was a very hot day in temporary facilities. All in all it looked like nobody had ever done a dohyo-iri before.

When the makuuchi dohyo-iri were done on day 3, they were running 20-30 minutes behind and they were speeding everything up to end by 6PM JST, so I imagine a lot of things were done on the fly.

[Jonosuke 28]

Actually the current custom is Tsuyuharai-Yokozuna-Tachimochi in that order but then it has not been always done that way. In the Edo era, yokozuna went up on the dohyo alone, leaving the two attendants below the dohyo.

It's also customary to see Tachimochi to right of yokozuna but that was not always the case either.

There is one theory that a yokozuna had a sword carrier because he was once under sponsorship of regional lord and was considered to be a samurai but then that's only a theory also. Another theory has it the House of Yoshida Tsukasa wanted to elevate the status of yokozuna so they had insisted to have the carrier accompany the yokozuna.

Asashoryu rushing back to the dressing room leaving his attendants behind may be a bit out of protocol but then he may needed to go to the washroom or something. It should not be something the traditionalists all wiled up as if so, they have to have the yokozuna going alone on the dohyo to do the ceremony.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Jonosuke

[Treblemaker 254]

  _the_mind_ said:

it is my understanding, and possibly wrong understanding, that the presentation of the sword is not religious but samurai in nature. a show of arms to enforce that back then everyone fight equally with no weapon and if someone cheats with a weapon, there is an armed samurai present to handle anyone who breaks the rules of no weapon against an unarmed opponent.

it might be wrong though(i feel like i read it somewhere but i dont recall where), if i am completely off then i apologize for making everyone dumber LOL

Um, I'm don't agree. In fact, I feel the opposite might be true. I doubt that it's a "peace-keeping", "obey-the-law-or-else" symbol. (If it were, the sword would be present and obviously visible throughout the bouts, like the Mace in the British House of Commons.) If anything, there might be other implications and purposes that I just haven't heard of. (This is why I asked the questions.)

Holding the sword up high from the bottom of the scabbord for the entire duration of the dohyo-iri, and the trips to and from the dohyo, must require an incredible amount of upper body strength. (Try holding metre-stick or a hockey stick or a baseball bat upright whe whole time - about 6 minutes or more - and feel your arm go almost numb.)

[Washuyama 641]

Not based on anything I've heard or read, just made sense to me is the dew sweeper is there to "clear the way" for the approaching Yokozuna, not unlike the tsukebito do while sekitori walk through the KK, while the tachi-mochi carries the sword for "the greatest warrior."

IIRC, Yokozuna wasn't originally a rank, just a license to perform the particular dohyo-iri.