Hakuhou news and Aki 2009 preparations

[wanderer 159]

I think, the nature of ozumo is such that there will never be a sustained threat to Yokozuna from ozeki and sanyaku ranks.

Here is why:

If there is someone good enough to threaten Yokozuna consistently basho after basho, that person soon becomes Yokozuna himself. Examples: Takanohana, Akebono, Musashimaru, Asashoryu, Hakuho and more ....

If the Yokozuna himself is not head and shoulders above the rest, including ozeki, he could have never become Yokozuna first place. Therefore, any Yokozuna in his prime is expected to be bit boring and predictable. I would say it as dominant.

There could be brief periods of fierce competition, though, when some sort of transition takes place. When Takanohana started weaning, everybody thought about likes of Tochiazuma, Kotomitsuki, Taikai, or even Kaio to replace him. It never happened. Because the ozeki are ozeki and they could not distinguish themselves from the rest. Assume that there was no Asashoryu. Then who was there to be so dominating among the old guards, and thus fitting of Yokozuna. No one.

If there is a Yokozuna, we must expect him to be highly predictable, dominating, and boring. That is what Yokozuna has to do. Asashoryu was flamboyant. But he was pretty damn predictable. So much boring that you were lucky if you see him falling to someone.

[Chisaiyama 11]

Assume that there was no Asashoryu. Then who was there to be so dominating among the old guards, and thus fitting of Yokozuna. No one.

It ain't necessarily so. As Ian Malcom said in Jurassic Park "Life finds a way". In the mid 1970's there was a situation much like today only without the dominating Yokozuna. Taiho had recently retired and the ramaining Yokozuna, Kitanofuji, while no Taiho was a powerful Yokozuna in his own right. Beneath him was a cadre of aging, complacent Ozeki with literally no ambition to move forward. As Kitanofuji reached the limits of his ability and was struggling to continue one of the aging Ozekis, Kotozakura, found a resurgence of strength, ability or just plain incentive and won two Yusho and was made Yokozuna. This took a lot of pressure off of Kitanofuji and allowed 2 up and coming rikishi, Wajima and Takanohana I, to move up to Ozeki and Wajima on up to Yokozuna, and Sumo continued.

I believe that if Asashoryu had not come along at all or even if he just hadn't developed as quickly as he did, that with the departure of Akebono and with Takanohana II's knee injury one of the three Ozeki you mentioned, possibly two would have made Yokozuna (my guess: Tochiazuma & Kaio). They would not have lasted like Asa has, but they would have filled that gap and in turn would have provided a gap that would have possibly allowed some different faces develop into Ozekis.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Chisaiyama

[Harry 67]

Sorry this isn't on topic as far as Hakuhou's Aki preparations but since we're discussing his sumo...

I had the good fortune of being able to see the last 9 days of Nagoyabasho (you spent 9 days of your stay in Japan just watching sumo? yep, pretty much, toured the castle one morning). I missed the first 6 of Hak's live matches but really, they were against opponents who either had never beaten him or who have beaten him only once or twice (Kotoshogiku and Kyokutenho), but not for years.

Day 1 yorikiri K1w Kotoshogiku 0-1 (8-7) 16-1

Day 2 hatakikomi M1w Goeido 1-1 (5-10) 7-0

Day 3 uwatenage M1e Aran 0-3 (4-11) 1-0

Day 4 uwatenage M2w Toyohibiki 0-4 (3-12) 1-0

Day 5 yorikiri K1e Kyokutenho 1-4 (6-9) 16-2

Day 6 hatakikomi M2e Tochiozan 0-6 (2-13) 4-0

Day 7 tsukiotoshi S1w Kisenosato 5-2 (9-6) 14-4

Day 8 shitatenage M3e Iwakiyama 2-6 (5-10) 6-3

Day 9 yorikiri S1e Kakuryu 3-6 (5-10) 7-0

Day 10 sukuinage O3e Chiyotaikai 5-5 (8-7) 20-6

Day 11 yorikiri O2w Kotomitsuki 10-1 (12-3) 19[-1]-9

Day 12 yorikiri O2e Kaio 6-6 (8-7) 20[-1]-4[-1]

Day 13 uwatenage O1w Kotooshu 11-2 (13-2) 17-7

Day 14 okuridashi O1e Harumafuji 9-5 (9-6) 13[+1]-6[+1]

Day 15 shitatenage Y1w Asashoryu 10-5 10[+1]-12[+2]

In the last 9 days aside from Kakuryu there was some very good competition for him and while he won all but one of the matches, they were very entertaining. Several had the appearance of being able to go either way at the start but once Hakuho gets his hooks in, the bout is as good as done. If others can study the tape of the Mickey win, perhaps they can keep the hooks out for long enough to defeat him, or at least force him into plan B.

After that day 11 loss, the rest of the days there was always the feeling that he could be beaten. Heck, with both yokozuna losing that day (the day I was supposed to be out sightseeing instead, glad I didn't miss it!) I wasn't even that shocked by Asa's further losses - the only shocking thing was that Hak managed to go out with a yonrensho for the yusho and that Osh couldn't quite keep up with him to force a kettei sen. I love Taikai and cheered him on for his win but Osh, Osh, Osh... you should'a won that one.

Sitting there in the gym all day there is a build up to the final matches that I don't feel while watching on TV or the feed (the people that show up 4-4:40pm probably don't feel it either...). I think NHK could do more to bring that atmosphere home. The rather predictable camera angles and commentary doesn't really follow the buildup in tension that well, it is a rather predictable broadcast they put on. Perhaps it just doesn't transmit that well but I think the final matches are much more exciting in person.

I really don't blame Hak for being so good. That is his job. Kotooshu and Kotomitsuki and Harumafuji have taken wins from him which is their job too, so good for them. Asa's a great guy but man, I wish he'd won on senshuraku (almost, close but no cigar). That the lower rankers can't put a dent in him these days is what makes the first week perhaps a little boring for the musubi-no-samban. Kisenosato was doing so well (on a gorensho after a shonichi Harumafuji loss) we thought we'd see an upset on day 7 but it wasn't to be... Heck, even Iwakiyama has beaten him 3 times and about as recently as anyone else outside of sanyaku so that match had a bit of suspense to it (that and Iwakiyama looked more genki than his record would suggest). A recharged Asa could make things more exciting.

[01010101 0]

Assume that there was no Asashoryu. Then who was there to be so dominating among the old guards, and thus fitting of Yokozuna. No one.

It ain't necessarily so. As Ian Malcom said in Jurassic Park "Life finds a way". In the mid 1970's there was a situation much like today only without the dominating Yokozuna. Taiho had recently retired and the ramaining Yokozuna, Kitanofuji, while no Taiho was a powerful Yokozuna in his own right. Beneath him was a cadre of aging, complacent Ozeki with literally no ambition to move forward. As Kitanofuji reached the limits of his ability and was struggling to continue one of the aging Ozekis, Kotozakura, found a resurgence of strength, ability or just plain incentive and won two Yusho and was made Yokozuna. This took a lot of pressure off of Kitanofuji and allowed 2 up and coming rikishi, Wajima and Takanohana I, to move up to Ozeki and Wajima on up to Yokozuna, and Sumo continued.

I believe that if Asashoryu had not come along at all or even if he just hadn't developed as quickly as he did, that with the departure of Akebono and with Takanohana II's knee injury one of the three Ozeki you mentioned, possibly two would have made Yokozuna (my guess: Tochiazuma & Kaio). They would not have lasted like Asa has, but they would have filled that gap and in turn would have provided a gap that would have possibly allowed some different faces develop into Ozekis.

Yea, they could have filled the gap, but you're missing the point!

[Asashosakari 19,319]

Yea, they could have filled the gap, but you're missing the point!

That point wasn't one, though. A yokozuna doesn't need to be as dominating as Asashoryu was in order to be fitting the rank. In-prime Kaio and Tochiazuma getting promoted to yokozuna and then taking another three or four yusho apiece (with perhaps another one or two by Chiyotaikai thrown in, and a darkhorse winner or two from the lower ranks) would have been plenty sufficient to bridge the gap to Kotooshu's arrival in 2005 and Hakuho's in 2006, and as mentioned before, arguably with more suspenseful yusho races.

[HenryK 38]

My sense is that "boring" is used in three different meanings in this thread

1) Hakuho's sumo is boring. Not my view at all. I find Hakuho's sumo beautiful--flowing, both fast and powerful, intelligent, versatile. Utter fabulous when he works on the mawashi.

2) It's boring that Hakuho always wins. Well maybe, but that's not his fault.

[As a side note, it's not true that a Yokozuna needs to be as dominant as Hakuho--he and Asahoryu have spoiled our expectations in this regard. A little stat I just did in another thread suggests that Hakuho is the most dominant Yokozuna of the past 50 years. In the same ballpark were only Kitanoumi, Taiho, Chiyonofuji, Takanohana II, Tamanoumi right before his death, and prime Asashoyu. But there were also 19 Yokozuna who, even at their prime, took a far smaller share of the pudding]

3) Hakuho is boring off the dohyo. This view I share -- his sterotyped interview responses that reveal no reflection whatsoever bear little interest to me. But obviously sections of the Japanese public see this differently.

Edited August 7, 2009 by HenryK

[Harry 67]

I see a lot of pictures of Asashouryuu with fans here but I don't see many (any?) with Hakuho. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems Asashouryuu is more approachable.

[01010101 0]

Yea, they could have filled the gap, but you're missing the point!

That point wasn't one, though. A yokozuna doesn't need to be as dominating as Asashoryu was in order to be fitting the rank. In-prime Kaio and Tochiazuma getting promoted to yokozuna and then taking another three or four yusho apiece (with perhaps another one or two by Chiyotaikai thrown in, and a darkhorse winner or two from the lower ranks) would have been plenty sufficient to bridge the gap to Kotooshu's arrival in 2005 and Hakuho's in 2006, and as mentioned before, arguably with more suspenseful yusho races.

I presume Wanderer's point is about one's dominance. It's like racing the American quarter horse in endurance racing, ones with stamina would take the lead in turns, unpredictable; hence the interest. Now mix into that crowd an Arabian horse, that would tip the scales so predictable and boring.

[Kuroyama 715]

I see a lot of pictures of Asashouryuu with fans here but I don't see many (any?) with Hakuho. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems Asashouryuu is more approachable.

That's exactly the impression I got at the Los Angeles jungyo last year. Asashoryu always made time for fans, even if he was out of uniform and running late. Hakuho would walk straight through a room without looking left or right.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

I see a lot of pictures of Asashouryuu with fans here but I don't see many (any?) with Hakuho. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems Asashouryuu is more approachable.

Like this one taken at Tokyo Station before the rikishi left collectively for the jungyo- Asa's facial expression looks genuine to me, at least:

[Naganoyama 5,911]

He is certainly looking straight into the child's eyes.

[wanderer 159]

Yea, they could have filled the gap, but you're missing the point!

That point wasn't one, though. A yokozuna doesn't need to be as dominating as Asashoryu was in order to be fitting the rank. In-prime Kaio and Tochiazuma getting promoted to yokozuna and then taking another three or four yusho apiece (with perhaps another one or two by Chiyotaikai thrown in, and a darkhorse winner or two from the lower ranks) would have been plenty sufficient to bridge the gap to Kotooshu's arrival in 2005 and Hakuho's in 2006, and as mentioned before, arguably with more suspenseful yusho races.

I presume Wanderer's point is about one's dominance. It's like racing the American quarter horse in endurance racing, ones with stamina would take the lead in turns, unpredictable; hence the interest. Now mix into that crowd an Arabian horse, that would tip the scales so predictable and boring.

I meant that Yokozuna must be a notch better than the ozeki, consistently threatening the yusho. It is by default.

My point is based on my observation of difference in the ranks.

Ozeki are a notch better than makuuchi, kumusibi, and sekiwake. Current ozeki are, however they are old, showing this by their results, sometimes threatening the yusho.

If certain ozeki can distinguish himself from the rest of the ozeki, by winning two yusho or equivalent for example, he gets promoted to Yokozuna, and stays there for a while, or retire.

If there was no Asashoryu, I don't think any one from the old guard could have been consistent enough to fulfill Yokozuna duty. They will beat each other in rounds but no one could have been able to win two consecutive yusho and win several more afterward. I think It is evident from the stats when Asashoryu became Yokozuna. The old guards have challenged him. But no one was consistent. Otherwise Tochiazuma, or Kaio could have won jun Yusho consistently, and therefore promoted to Yokozuna.

This confirms the fact that they are ozeki not Yokozuna.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

I meant that Yokozuna must be a notch better than the ozeki, consistently threatening the yusho. It is by default.

You can consistently challenge for the yusho by winning 11-13 bouts if there's no extremely dominant rikishi. That is "a notch better than the ozeki", even if it's far from what a dominant in-prime yokozuna like Asashoryu would achieve. Tochiazuma always had the skills to do that if he'd been able to (as being yokozuna certainly does) rest his injuries more regularly than the ozeki grind allowed for, and that Kaio would have been a regular yusho challenger during his prime years is pretty much unquestionable.

Otherwise Tochiazuma, or Kaio could have won jun Yusho consistently, and therefore promoted to Yokozuna.

This confirms the fact that they are ozeki not Yokozuna.

Kaio:

2004.09 13-2 Yusho

2004.11 12-3 Jun-Yusho (Yusho: 13-2 Asashoryu)

Ozeki total: 4 yusho, 6 jun-yusho (all in his first four years as ozeki, and more than half of that was with Asashoryu present)

Tochiazuma:

2006.01 14-1 Yusho

2006.03 12-3 third place (Yusho: 13-2 Asashoryu, Jun-Yusho: 13-2 Hakuho)

Ozeki total: 3 yusho, 1 jun-yusho, 2 more 12-3 records (almost entirely with Asashoryu present, of course)

Sure that's a bit cherry-picked, but most "regular" yokozuna never win consecutive yusho again after their promotion, if they even did for their promotion (prior to the last ~20 years when that was still possible), just like many regular ozeki take years to their second yusho - or never even win another one - after the one during their promotion run (again, if they even had one at that time).

Anyway, the absence of any obvious dai-yokozuna has a habit of elevating other strong rikishi who otherwise may appear to be "only an ozeki"; just look at Musashimaru from 1999 to 2002 if Chisaiyama's story about the 1970s wasn't enough indication of that yet. Does anyone think Maru wasn't worthy of the tsuna? I would hope not.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Asashosakari

[HenryK 38]

If there was no Asashoryu, I don't think any one from the old guard could have been consistent enough to fulfill Yokozuna duty.

The counterfactual is unobservable, so one can't know for sure. But as a rough approximation, below are hypothetical results for the bashos since 2002/11 (Asashoryu's first yusho) until 2007/5 (Hakuho's Y promotion) had Asashoryu not participated, but all other match-ups would been just the same.

2002/11:

Y: Takanowaka (K)

J: Musoyama (O), Takanonami (M1)

2003/1:

Y/J: between Wakanosato (K) and Dejima (M3) (Ketteisen)

2003/3:

Y: Chiyotaikai (O)

J: Kaio (O)

2003/5:

Y: Kaio (O)

J: Chiyotaikai (O), Kyokutenho (K)

2003/7:

Y: Kaio (O) YOKOZUNA PROMOTION KAIO

J: Chiyotaikai (O)

2003/9:

Y: Chiyotaikai (O) POSSIBLE YOKOZUNA PROMOTION CHIYOTAIKAI

J: Wakanosato (S), Kyokutenho (M2)

2003/11:

Y: Tochiazuma (O)

J: several including Chiyotaikai (O/Y)

2004/1:

Y: Kotomitsuki (M4)

J: Kakizoe (M5)

2004/3:

Y/J between Kaio (O/Y) and Chiyotaikai (O/Y) (Ketteisen)

2004/5:

Y/J between Hokutoriki (M1), Tamanoshima (M5) and Hakuho (M16)

2004/7:

Y: Miyabiyama (M7)

J: several, including Kaio (O/Y) and Hakuho (M8)

2004/9:

Y: Kaio (O/Y)

J: several

2004/11:

Y/J: between Kaio (O/Y) and Hakuho (M1) POSSIBLE YOKOZUNA PROMOTION KAIO

2005/1:

Y/J between Tochiazuma (S) and Hakuho (K)

Note: Hakuho would probably have been promoted to Ozeki after this basho

2005/3:

Y: Tamanoshima (M7)

J: several, including Kaio (O/Y)

2005/5:

Y: Kotomitsuki (K)

J: Tochiazuma (O)

2005/7:

Y/J: between Kotooshu (K) and Wakanosato (M2)

2005/9:

Y: Kotooshu (S)

J: Kisenosato (M16)

2005/11:

Y: Chiyotaikai (O/Y)

J: Kotooshu (S), Tochinohana (M14)

2006/1:

Y: Tochiazuma (O)

J: Hakuho (S/O), Hokutoriki (M11), Tokitsuumi (M14)

2006/3:

Y: Hakuho (S/O)

J: several, including Tochiazuma (O)

2006/5:

Y: Hakuho (O) YOKOZUNA PROMOTION HAKUHO

J: Miyabiyama (S)

2006/7:

Y: Hakuho (O/Y)

J: Tamanoshima (M10), Tamakasuga (M12)

2006/9:

Y: Aminishiki (M3)

J: Ama (M6)

2006/11:

Y: Homasho (M11)

J: several, including Kaio (O), Kotooshu (O), Tochiazuma (O)

2007/1:

Y: Toyonoshima (M9)

J: several, including Hakuho (O/Y) and Chiyotaikai (O)

2007/3:

Y: Hakuho (O/Y)

J: several, including Homasho (M4, who may have been K, however)

2007/5:

Y: Hakuho (O/Y)

J: several, including Kotomitsuki (S)

This suggestst that without Asashoryu, Kaio would have become Yokozuna, and would have collected up to 8 bahos. Chiyotaikai may have gotten to Yokozuna as well, and Hakuho would have gotten there earlier.

Edited August 8, 2009 by HenryK

[Kuroyama 715]

This suggestst that without Asashoryu, Kaio would have become Yokozuna, and would have collected up to 8 bahos. Chiyotaikai may have gotten to Yokozuna as well, and Hakuho would have gotten there earlier.

And when would Kaio and Chiyotaikai have been compelled to retire, I wonder? As yokozuna, their single-digit wins and occasional MK (which I assume would have happened with our without Asashoryu) would not have been tolerated.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Kuroyama

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Hakuhou is slowly carving out his future. He says he intends to acquire Japanese citizenship and stay on as an Oyakata. To that end, he intends to apply for permanent residency status and get it by next year. "I guess I'll have to start off with permanent residency. Since next year will be my tenth year, I've been thinking that maybe that's what I want to do. As for citizenship, I haven't done anything concrete about it yet", he acknowledged. Since he is still 24, it is a bit premature to talk about citizenship.

Asashouryuu already has permanent residence, but it seems they are both doing it for different reasons. While Hakuhou seems to see his future in sumo after he retires, Asashouryuu seems to be looking for business opportunities that a permanent resident can enjoy.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Zenjimoto 40]

I see a lot of pictures of Asashouryuu with fans here but I don't see many (any?) with Hakuho. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems Asashouryuu is more approachable.

That's exactly the impression I got at the Los Angeles jungyo last year. Asashoryu always made time for fans, even if he was out of uniform and running late. Hakuho would walk straight through a room without looking left or right.

I for one had no problem approaching him, and he would willingly pose for pictures with me twice (including the infamous illegal gambling shot on the left) and Chiisabuke, as well. Maybe the trick was to catch him before he was Yokozuna (I am not worthy...)

[HenryK 38]

This suggestst that without Asashoryu, Kaio would have become Yokozuna, and would have collected up to 8 bahos. Chiyotaikai may have gotten to Yokozuna as well, and Hakuho would have gotten there earlier.

And when would Kaio and Chiyotaikai have been compelled to retire, I wonder? As yokozuna, their single-digit wins and occasional MK (which I assume would have happened with our without Asashoryu) would not have been tolerated.

They would have gone fusen before encountering MK, take of another basho or two, then would have come back rested and in better health and re-entered the basho race -- as Yokozuna can and often did. Looking at Kaio's recored, I have little doubt that he could have held himself as a Yokozuna until Hakuho's arrival. Chiyotaikai in 2005 is a little more doubtful, but maybe an extended break would have done the trick. Neither would have been a dominant Dai-Yokozuna a la Asashoryu or Hakuho, but then these are the exception rather than the rule, the past 10 years apart.

Edited August 9, 2009 by HenryK

[Asashosakari 19,319]

Maybe the trick was to catch him before he was Yokozuna (I am not worthy...)

I think it's also largely due to the fact that Hakuho (probably) doesn't have anything like Asashoryu's large and ever-present photographer corps following him around to catch him in compromising situations. That Asashoryu also gets a bunch of good photo ops out of the deal when he interacts with fans seems more like collateral damage for the journalists to me.

[Kuroyama 715]

I see a lot of pictures of Asashouryuu with fans here but I don't see many (any?) with Hakuho. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems Asashouryuu is more approachable.

That's exactly the impression I got at the Los Angeles jungyo last year. Asashoryu always made time for fans, even if he was out of uniform and running late. Hakuho would walk straight through a room without looking left or right.

I for one had no problem approaching him, and he would willingly pose for pictures with me twice (including the infamous illegal gambling shot on the left) and Chiisabuke, as well. Maybe the trick was to catch him before he was Yokozuna (I am not worthy...)

Cool. I'll try that next time.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Hakuhou is slowly carving out his future. He says he intends to acquire Japanese citizenship and stay on as an Oyakata. To that end, he intends to apply for permanent residency status and get it by next year.

"I haven't decided yet about permanent citizenship", said Hakuhou when he was directly asked about it, contrary to what was written yesterday. As for keiko, he had 9 matches against Tochiouzan, showing great form and overwhelmingly winning them all.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Hakuhou has resumed his training today. He came down for half an hour, doing suriashi and some butsugari with his tsukebito."I sweated well after a long time (he's been resting since August 23rd).I feel great!", he said. The YDC soken is on the 4th, so he will be upping the pace.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Kaji 1]

Hakuhou is slowly carving out his future. He says he intends to acquire Japanese citizenship and stay on as an Oyakata. To that end, he intends to apply for permanent residency status and get it by next year.

"I haven't decided yet about permanent citizenship", said Hakuhou when he was directly asked about it, contrary to what was written yesterday. As for keiko, he had 9 matches against Tochiouzan, showing great form and overwhelmingly winning them all.

AFAIK Japan does not accept double citizenship under any circumstance.

So, if Hakuho is willing to acquire japanese citizenship he must give up his mongolian citizenship. Is he willing to do that?

I guess that some people can get japanese citizenship and not to brag about still having the previous nationality.

But, could he, as a public persona, do that?

Kaji

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Hakuhou came down to his heya's keiko ba raring to go today. He had 50 bouts against Makushita compatriot and frequent punching bag Ryuuou and won them all. "I decided to have a lot of bouts today. Feels great!", he said, smiling and wiping the sweat.

[James H 0]

AFAIK Japan does not accept double citizenship under any circumstance.

OFF TOPIC ALERT

Except the circumstance of being under 20.

In fact, you can be a joint national... if you take Japanese citizenship, you do not have to revoke, say, British citizenship. You just don't tell the Japanese government about it. (It was explained to me in great detail by the consular section of the British Embassy... but really we are going completely off topic now).