YDC convenes

[Kintamayama 44,741]

In a few hours, but Ishibashi member has already promised that they will deal with Asashouryuu's guts pose, among other things. Another point of interest-Musashigawa rijicho promised to "deal severely" with Asa if he poses again back in January when the YDC members were demanding Asa's head for his spontaneous combustion back then, amid apologies and reflections.

In a few hours.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Treblemaker 254]

In a few hours, but Ishibashi member has already promised that they will deal with Asashouryuu's guts pose, among other things. Another point of interest-Musashigawa rijicho promised to "deal severely" with Asa if he poses again back in January when the YDC members were demanding Asa's head for his spontaneous combustion back then, amid apologies and reflections.

In a few hours.

I guess I'm never going to understand the Japanese way of thinking. So, if you (the reader) subscribe to that river of thought, forgive me of my foibles...

But... Nothing causes a burning sensation on my gluteous more than some people who have absolutely nothing better to do, and no other purpose in life, than to criticize others for doing something "wrong", especially if they've just accomplished something "right".

Let those same people travel to the USA, and watch an NFL game, and watch the players who score touchdowns, and what foolishness they then demonstrate. That YDC member would be traumatized for life.

So, to these people, and that Honorary Member of the I Got No Life Club, I say, in the illustrious words of my Grade 10 science teacher:

"Get real, Idiot."

[wanderer 159]

I just watched the ketteisen. Asashoryu's gut's pose looked very deliberate and kind of robotic. I think he did it on purpose. Personally, I have no particular opinion whether YDC is right or wrong. But what I see could be Asashoryu's deliberate action to at least ignore the YDC. Interesting to watch the further developments.

[Jonosuke 28]

I guess this is not so much about the pose but it's about a repeat offense aside from the fact that Asashoryu has been around for some time so he should know better what he is expected of as a yokozuna.

Regardless whether you agree or don't agree it should matter at all, Asashoryu was already "warned" about this but he did it anyway. In some profession there are certain rules and if you want to belong to it, you will need to adhere to them. If you are willing to join despite the rules then you are expected to follow them.

For some it may be absolutely silly rule but it's a rule he accepted when he joined Ozumo and as a yokozuna he should follow it. This isn't the first time he did it either and he was already warned. He understands it and if he keeps repeating it then it's reasonable to think some are assuming he is blatantly ignoring or breaking it despite the forewarning.

[Toukeigakusha 0]

With Asashoryu winning this yusho based on sheer will power (instead of perfect physical shape), these moments (and perhaps even the complaints about them afterwards) may actually be a significant source of energy for him. Would he have stood a chance against a Hakuho in 84-wins-a-year shape by merely executing technical sumo?

[Kozaru 0]

If I had a photo of the pose at the moment, I'd caption it with, "Screw you, Kitanoumi!" And I might draw two middle fingers pointing towards the ceiling.

[wanderer 159]

I guess this is not so much about the pose but it's about a repeat offense aside from the fact that Asashoryu has been around for some time so he should know better what he is expected of as a yokozuna.

Regardless whether you agree or don't agree it should matter at all, Asashoryu was already "warned" about this but he did it anyway. In some profession there are certain rules and if you want to belong to it, you will need to adhere to them. If you are willing to join despite the rules then you are expected to follow them.

For some it may be absolutely silly rule but it's a rule he accepted when he joined Ozumo and as a yokozuna he should follow it. This isn't the first time he did it either and he was already warned. He understands it and if he keeps repeating it then it's reasonable to think some are assuming he is blatantly ignoring or breaking it despite the forewarning.

I completely agree with above statement. Asashoryu is who is he and he is doing what he wants to do. I don't think he is acting like this because he doesn't know the rules or like. He is clearly on collision course once again with the YDC. As a Mongol, I am proud of both Yokozuna. Hakuho (and the others) will mend the image of Mongols, and I think Asashoryu knows it best. It is his nature to be a bad boy, but in a remarkably good way. He still has few more yusho, if he wants to.

Today's ketteisen bout was, technically, one of the best display of martial arts by all accounts, down to the moment of landing on the dohyo. And those who performed it know what they have just done.

[kawika 123]

I think it was just another example of him not staying withing the dotted lines, on purpose, and hence, he ought to be punished, regardless if it appears silly or not. There have been other sekitori who have done things on purpose, mostly to have a niche, say that sekitori that didn't push-up like tsukiri(sp?), then the salt throwing by Mitoizumi, which was OK, or the routine that Takamisakari goes though, which I think it silly, but that is OK, but there are exceptions, not the rule.

I think Asashoryu's bad boy image, it compares nicely to Hakuho, but sometimes I think he would better serve himself if he would copy Hakuho behave like a yokozuna a little more.

[Treblemaker 254]

I guess I'm never going to understand the Japanese way of thinking.

You should think about that. I wouldn't say "never" but you certainly don't at the moment and by constantly railing against these things you don't understand you just look foolish in my opinion.

Well, looking "foolish" is something I'm not a stranger to... Heck, I've also been known to look downright "stupid" on occasion...

Still, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and as much as I appear foolish for not completely understanding. or even accepting, a certain viewpoint (which to me appears illogical and unreasonable), then by my (and your) standards, to continue to rail against a gesture of victory within an accomplishment equal to that of winning the World Series, the Stanley Cup and the Masters (and which is accepted almost everywhere else in the world as a gesture of victory) is to appear to be equally foolish in the eyes of the non-Japanese beholder.

[Asashosakari 19,038]

If I had a photo of the pose at the moment, I'd caption it with, "Screw you, Kitanoumi!"

I'm confused.

Edit: Eh, guess I'll expand on it right away because this will only end as another boring and uninformative back-and-forth otherwise. I suppose your comment is an off-shoot of the dearly-held belief by basically everyone in the early days of the Sumotalk forum that it was somehow Kitanoumi who masterminded every single bit of criticism and obstruction thrown Asashoryu's way since 2003. Which of course was patent nonsense, as Kitanoumi was the guy who always held his hand over Asashoryu, practically never criticizing him in more than perfunctory terms, frequently pointing out how hard the responsibilities of being both a dai-yokozuna and the sole active yokozuna weigh, and actually expressing hope that Asashoryu would reach/exceed his number of yusho. It was always, always the second-rankers such as Oshima who spearheaded the criticisms of Asashoryu. And in the end it arguably cost Kitanoumi his job as rijicho, even if it took the pot scandal to be the last straw.

So, unless you think that Asashoryu is a complete sociopath, "Screw you, Kitanoumi!" is just about the last thing he should have said or even thought after winning the yusho. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure Asashoryu already realized exactly what I wrote in the preceding paragraph, even if you don't.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

As a sumo fan, I appreciate that the same hinkaku that is expected of a yokozuna is not as necessary for the folks in the seats. We can shout the names of favored rikishi to encourage them (rival fans often have great shouting matches), we can drink to excess, sit where we please when the ticket-holders have not yet arrived, have animated conversations with groups in surrounding seats, rain cushions on defeated yokozuna (sad to see that custom fall by the wayside), and general enjoy the "festival" of sumo. I suspect Mr. Benjamin reveled in that irony.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Otokonoyama

[Jejima 1,359]

If Akebono were to have performed his dohyo-iri sucking on a childs soother all hell would have broken loose, but nobody cares that he uses the same prop in pro-wrestling.

I care (In jonokuchi...) But I agree with your other points (Sign of approval...)

[Kozaru 0]

So, unless you think that Asashoryu is a complete sociopath, "Screw you, Kitanoumi!" is just about the last thing he should have said or even thought after winning the yusho. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure Asashoryu already realized exactly what I wrote in the preceding paragraph, even if you don't.

Huh.... well, unless you take any comment way too seriously when it is partly joke, or think that a guy hoping his mark would be passed was anything more than polite lip service.... ah, forget it.

[Asashosakari 19,038]

Huh.... well, unless you take any comment way too seriously when it is partly joke, or think that a guy hoping his mark would be passed was anything more than polite lip service.... ah, forget it.

Well, what else should one take away from your post? Half-joking or not, you clearly seem to be holding the belief that "screw you, Kitanoumi" is an appropriate interpretation of Asashoryu's post-victory behaviour. Apparently then it's less you voicing it as a mere proxy for Asashoryu than it being your own belief, in which case I'm now going to say something I probably should have told you in several threads for a long time already: I'm sorry, but you don't have half as much of a clue of, well, anything, regarding sumo as you think you do. Treblemaker's just received a veritable boatload of harsh criticism from Nishinoshima above, but at least he realizes that he doesn't understand some things. Reading your posts and responding to them, on the other hand, frequently resembles what a friend of mine once called "playing handball against drapes".

Feel free to have the last word as usual, I'm too tired to continue.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I think that, in general, we agree. While I'm guessing the writer used "The Asshole" in a kind of tongue-in-cheek, private nickname to describe a single behavior (in this case salt throwing) he didn't like, by offering that glimpse into his private world and describing it in a way that could be open to various interpretations, he could rightly be criticized for that. Anyhow, I think you've summed things up well in the last post.

[Kintamayama 44,741]

Aaaaand, we're on!

About the "guts pose":

Uchidate: "Totally unacceptable. He's always 'reflecting'.. He's like the boy who cried 'wolf'."

Chairman Tsuruta : "I know there are people who think that it was within the boundaries of OK... As an individual, it did not make me feel uncomfortable". (What the??)

Musashigawa rijicho has indicated he does not intend to deal with this in any way.

Yesterday, there were already signs of different thoughts within the YDC- Mr. Sawamura: "His dame-oshi shouldn't be made such an issue. It's part of his willpower"

So, surprise, surprise, maybe it is only Ms. Uchidate after all. Still, these are early reports which may change soon.

Edit: The headlines are now saying there were two distinctly different opinions, as can be seen above. Members were saying good things about his yusho. "He was rumored to be a total write-off before the basho, and he came and exhibited great concentration!", added chairman Tsuruta.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,741]

" His heart was not in it, his technique was not polished, and his body was all over the place due to lack of keiko. The yusho was a fluke. He should hone his shingitai (the three basics-mind technique and body) and try again!!", said Ms. Uchidate. "Takasago Oyakata did not come to apologize (for the guts pose) but to explain. I think the fans had no problems with his pose. With that kind of power and mental prowess, he can continue to gambarize !!", said Mr. Tsuruta the Chairman.

Oh, this is interesting. My personal thought-Ms. Uchidate has lost it, with all due respect..

[Kozaru 0]

Feel free to have the last word as usual, I'm too tired to continue.

You know, I used to respect you for your knowledge of sumo, but why do you have to act like this all the time? Perhaps it's because I'm a teacher, but I think someone with your level of knowledge of the sport shouldn't be such a ...... to other people who perhaps know or understand less. You have more to offer than that.

Now I'll let YOU have the last word. Go for it.

[HenryK 38]

May I ask what kind of "punishment" could come out of this?

As for the matter itself, I'm a little split. I didn't find Asashoryu's pose outlandishly provoking or disrespectful. He just expresed joy, and in a fairly subdued manner (this said, some of our local friends here claim in Japan this is all viewed totally differently. I'm not in a postition to assess this). If any other rikishi would have done this, I wish the YDC/NHK wouldn't make a fuss about it.

BUT this was Asashoryu. He was on watch and he knew it; and I agree with others that he signed up for the rules of the game -- hence he should try to respect them. One wonders why this fella just can't get his act together. This could have been a beautiful moment, him winning a yusho when people thought he had fizzled out, and especially with the fabulous bout he put up at kett-eisen. Did he have to add a foul taste to it? No.

Edited September 28, 2009 by HenryK

[Gusoyama 99]

I mentioned liking the guts pose in another thread, and I still hold to that remark. I like it, and I understand why he does it.

On the other hand, I understand what Nishinoshima is saying, and that it really is inappropriate within the confines of Sumo.

[Treblemaker 254]

The point is though it's NOT illogical or unreasonable inside it's own paradigm.

et al......

Nish

I accept what you're saying, and I stand properly corrected.

Is it permissible to still say that there are things that my small brain will continue to balk at and simply not accept? This is, obviously, one of them.

I suggest, though, that I'm not alone in my opinion.

Of course I'm going to frame things in my own "western" way, and for the most part, there isn't a conflict with the actions, decisions and ruminations surrounding this sport. Looking at things from my distant and foreign viewpoint, I frame them in a way that makes sense to me. Some things, however, are simply never going to "complete the equation" (as my math teacher used to say)...

I accept and to a great degree defer to your knowledge and experience, but maintain my own right to tear my own almost-non-existant hair out when attempting to understand actions and decisions and comments that, to more people than not, make no sense and defy reason.

So be it. If the socially accepted behaviour is to restrain (even stunt) emotional displays and publicly criticize someone who has successfully followed the rules within the guidelines for the most part in an activity, and at the same time ignored other participants who have done the same thing, well, I might have to accept them for what they are, but I certainly don't have to like them. And as I've said, I pretty sure I'm not alone in my opinion.

[Asameshimae 220]

Nishinoyama's early post about summed up how I feel about Asashoryu. He could act the part better, but let's face it, the man is an enigma and all the more fun to watch because of his "antics". We could have two stone faced, "well-bred" yokozuna, and I for one would be bored to death. And this thread would be a lot shorter.

[Toukeigakusha 0]

Was Asashoryu's gesture (which I believe to be a justified outbreak of relief for winning a yusho that few people considered possible for him, most notably after his suboptimal keiko) a worse thing than, say, giving an opponent an extra shove after the bout is effectively over, making a point of his feeling of superiority?

Asashoryu makes the most of this "good yok/bad yok" rivalry between the two Mongolians. And both the sold-out seats and the number of kensho for the senshuraku bout show that he can't be all wrong with this, hinkaku and Japanese tradition notwithstanding. I do understand Ms. Uchidate's point of view but if she goes after Asashoryu mechanically she may happen to find herself alone in a corner every now and then.

[Kintamayama 44,741]

Astoundingly surprisingly, two of the more prominent members of the YDC have openly stated they have no problem with the "guts pose" and one of them even went on to say that the dame Judy Dench -oshi were not such a big deal either. This , to me, is the big breakthrough of the basho. It seems even the upper echelons of the sumo intelligence are changing their strict attitude. I think the discussion so far hasn't pressed restart for this latest update. I wouldn't be surprised if Ms. Uchidate calls it quits on health grounds sooner than later.