Takanohana Oyakata to run for riji spot next year

[ilovesumo 12]

Do I get this sentence right?

峰崎親方（元幕内三杉磯）は「本人にとってはマイナスになる」と離脱に批判的だった。

Minezaki Oyakata (who is a real great fella (personal oppinion)) critisized the drop out:「for him (Taka) it's a negative step 」

This is really getting super interesting... :) Isn't Minezaki one of those young Oyakata? Is he sorry that with this step Taka's chance drops dead?

So the young oyakata want reforms...

what kind of reforms?

I expect:

1. the gaijin-rule to be reformed.

The 1-gaijin rule already hurts badly, as there are many foreign talents in a long waiting row, (getting older and older...waste!!)

as I learned while trying to get an amateur into Ozumo..."There are also oyakata who still fear whatsoever trouble with gaijin deshi" said XY-Oyakata who tries to help with this matter but has a gaijin already. The coin has 2 sides, especially when it comes to this rule- but no Japanese shindeshi while there are a plenty of wasted gaijin talents- man, I would get mad If I was an Oyakata...

2. Attract shindeshi => make their life less hard and especially less old-fashioned.

I really don't get it when boys are not allowed to have a mobile phone before they get to Sandanme (most secretly have one anyway...)

Each school kid has one...

Don't get me wrong, hard work is a need, but in 2010 even a heya is no time machine anymore and the boys do want to live in here and now

3. More (and better) PR. Excuse me, but that kid-scaring mascot????

Damn, everybody in Japan loves it and there is already the relation- get Hello Kitty closer! Image is everything (too bad it's rather kinky to relate samurai with kitten....but if Kitty on TV promotes Sumo? The target group could be shindeshi in 8-12 years from that point on... )

and those intern rules "don't be seen while driving a car" etc...

No such rule, no such scandal- like the little accident Tenho had, or is it in the news all the time when XY talento bumped an other car and left a few scratches??

4. Clean up behind the curtain. Sumo is traditionally a part of this paralel world of "entertainment"...I bet that scares parents to make their boys join a heya....

5. Those who do not become Sekitori and stay all their life cause there is simply nothing out there for them without a proper formal education --> give em opportunities! Ex-Sumo job-and education center has to be established!

feel free to add more...I gotta go to bed now (Laughing...)

Edited January 8, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

3. More (and better) PR. Excuse me, but that kid-scaring mascot????

Damn, everybody in Japan loves it and there is already the relation- get Hello Kitty closer! Image is everything (too bad it's rather kinky to relate samurai with kitten....but if Kitty on TV promotes Sumo? The target group could be shindeshi in 8-12 years from that point on... )

Well, you can't just take a beloved mascot and use it for your association without paying royal royalties.

[ilovesumo 12]

3. More (and better) PR. Excuse me, but that kid-scaring mascot????

Damn, everybody in Japan loves it and there is already the relation- get Hello Kitty closer! Image is everything (too bad it's rather kinky to relate samurai with kitten....but if Kitty on TV promotes Sumo? The target group could be shindeshi in 8-12 years from that point on... )

Well, you can't just take a beloved mascot and use it for your association without paying royal royalties.

correct, but there must already be some deal...ask (poor) Kisenosato (Laughing...)

[Asashosakari 19,319]

The 1-gaijin rule already hurts badly

Hurts whom?

as there are many foreign talents in a long waiting row, (getting older and older...waste!!)

Oh, them. Are you sure that many oyakata (old or young, doesn't matter) really care a whole lot about that? If I was one of them, I'd be quite happy if my (yes, just one) talented foreign deshi didn't have to compete with 200 others. I think they'll happily continue to circumvent the rules by having the successful foreigners take citizenship if they want it, because that gives the oyakata the best of both worlds, another foreigner spot and no increased competition.

Besides, if the level of foreign talent available is really as great as you're implying, it hardly matters if half of it (or even more) goes to waste. There'll be plenty more candidates to take the spots of everybody who missed out by turning 23.

[ilovesumo 12]

I have that 1-Rikishi heya in mind....

The Oyakata mailed that there are already many candidates, if the particular one can be here tomorrow, he can join the group and we see who is the best one...

Then this heya will have a newly-Japanized and a gaijin Rikishi then...but no Japanese boys to join...

getting off topic

And why is a gaijin who turned into a Japanese different from a gaijin? He adapted everything Japanese?

I really wonder how Toriteki can become citizens now, just read the rules for a permanent residence (be a professor or Sports star for example...) and it is still difficult...

I say the Oyakata want more gaijin and make it possible that way....turbo-citizen shipping...

Edited January 8, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Asameshimae 220]

Are those reforms what you truly expect, or what you hope for?

All of those reforms are laudable but I don't see most of them happening and don't expect a lot of them to even be discussed.

Are people really unhappy with the 1 foreign wrestler rule? Look how well foreigners do proportionally even with this rule in place. I could see sumo losing even more of it's viewership if the top ranks were mostly populated with foreigners in a country that still views itself as a mono-culture. You said yourself that "how is a gaijin who becomes a Japanese really a Japanese?" Many Japanese people feel the same way. Baseball still has the foreigner limit doesn't it? And this has been happily in place for some time.

Re-education programs for retired rikishi is definitely something they should consider and move on. Whether they would is a question.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

Are people really unhappy with the 1 foreign wrestler rule? Look how well foreigners do proportionally even with this rule in place. I could see sumo losing even more of it's viewership if the top ranks were mostly populated with foreigners in a country that still views itself as a mono-culture.

I have a somewhat different view on that. Why does everybody always act like the "free agent" talent is necessarily just as good as the guys already there? Lots of guys have made it, sure, but lots of others haven't, and I'd expect the ratio to shift toward the haven'ts if the foreigner ranks were opened further. So sure, let's open Ozumo to 100+ foreign rikishi instead of the current ~60, and once the 120 makushita spots are more than half-filled with foreigners going nowhere fast, perhaps the appeal of seemingly easy money will start fading quickly. So be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

At any rate, if there's one issue on which I've significantly changed my mind over the last few years, it's the number of stables in existence and their continued right to exist. Back when the Kyokai instituted its tougher requirements for opening new stables, I was moaning about how that curtails the ability of promising would-be shishos to contribute to the Kyokai, but more and more I'm convinced that that's a small price to pay for dealing with the issue of all those half-comatose stables like Takashima-beya. Sorry, but screw that oyakata - I don't care one bit that he could revitalize his stable on the cheap by taking in a bunch of new foreign deshi. It's always "oh, but there aren't enough Japanese recruits", but frankly I consider that complete BS. If an utterly unremarkable oyakata like Arashio can build his stable to respectable size through determined recruiting efforts, so can anyone. We've got 50+ stables and I'm convinced at least a quarter of them don't do any active recruiting whatsoever. Solve that problem and you're solving the alleged issue of decreasing interest among Japanese youth. And since it's becoming clear that that problem is only getting solved if we're increasing the number of oyakata per stable again (so that there's some available manpower for active recruiting in every stable), I'm happy to wave bye-bye to Takashima-beya et al. And no, I don't care that that would ultimately cost a foreigner spot under the current regulations; I'm a fan of Ozumo, not foreign participation in Ozumo.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Takanohana press conference today:

Q: What's the reason you want to be a riji so badly that you're willing to leave the Ichimon?

A: I think the status and duties of a riji are important. I feel I should give back to sumo a bit of what it gave to me.

Q: Did they try to persuade you to withdraw your candidacy?

A: Yes, there were voices to that effect, but even if I leave the Ichimon I'm still a member of the Kyokai so nothing really changes. I will never forget that I was brought up in that Ichimon so I will not "do" anything..

Q: Do you have people supporting you in this?

A: I wouldn't be doing this all alone, for sure. I have people who have been supporting me from the very beginning and I think that's what has brought me to this junction.

Q: You left the meeting in the middle.

A: The Ichimon did not recognize my candidacy, so I thanked them for their help till now and bade them farewell.

Q: Tell us about the reforms in the sumo world.

A: There are a lot of young Oyakatas and I think exchanges of ideas will bring about the changes. I'd like for sumo to become more popular with the younger generation.

Q: There's another Ichimon meeting on the 19th..

A: Yes I know, but I probably won't be participating.

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/photos/100108...81943005-p2.htm

Edited January 8, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Reactions of other Oyakatas:

Nishonoseki: "He acted spontaneously. We as an Ichimon have no intentions of excommunicating him."

Hanaregoma, asked if there is a possibility that at their next Ichimon meeting on the 19th they may narrow down their candidates to two to accommodate Takanohana- "No way!!" He then added that nobody told him he can't run, and that all they wanted was to have a discussion with him on what his plans were. "We didn't even get to stand on the starting line", he complained.

Otowayama (ex-Takanonami), Takanohana beya: "The fact that the head of my heya left the meeting doesn't mean I'm supposed to leave as well.."

Minezaki: "A minus for him, this.. He can't just make waves in the Ichimon, and then expect to run as its candidate. At least, that's what everyone is saying.."

Tokiwayama Oyakata, from Takanohana beya: "I don't know if I will be leaving the Ichimon as well.."

Oguruma Oyakata: "If he would have waited 2-4 years his time would have come.. What's his hurry??"

Anonymous Oyakata from another Ichimon: "We're talking about another Ichimon here, so it has nothing to do with us.. There's nothing I can say."

Anonymous Oyakata from Takasago Ichimon: "If he decides to run on an independent ticket, it won't influence us.."

Edited January 9, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,319]

It's not going to win me any fans here on the forum, but I will laugh and laugh if Takanohana's candidacy fails. (Not least because it would probably doom him for 2012 as well, when he was pretty much guaranteed to become riji.) The whole thing is just bizarre, and pretty much confirms every sceptical post ever made on here about Takanohana, Wannabe Revolutionary Riji(cho).

Edited January 8, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Asameshimae 220]

"I'm a fan of Ozumo, not foreign participation in Ozumo."

Oh, yes I agree with that. I do agree that foreign participation adds some vitality and for lack of a better word, "color" to the mix; it was never about that for me. I remember back when Akebonono was yokozuna, my brother-in-law (a really nice guy actually) always just assumed that I loved Akebono and later Musashimaru w/o ever even asking me. One day, while we were watching sumo, I finally had to break it to him that I thought they were both lumbering giants who didn't need (and would indeed probably have trouble using) skilled techniques to win (or lose) and that I wouldn't be crying too much when they retired and we got back to more balanced sumo. My b-in-law was stunned.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Some technicalities:

There are 109 people who have the right to vote for the rijikai- the 105 toshiyori (not including the two vacant kabu-Asakayama and Araiso), 2 active rikishi (Kotomitsuki and KaioU, representatives of the rikishi) and two tate-gyojis. Since there are 10 riji, 10 votes is the minimum to be elected. Nishonoseki has a total of 29 votes. Takanohana has some 7 guaranteed votes from within the Ichimon, and probably more from outside his Ichimon. If he does run, this means he may steal some votes from other candidates as well. In January 1998 Takadagawa Oyakata managed to win a riji seat after being excommunicated from the Takasago Ichimon for insisting on being a candidate against the Ichimon's wishes.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,319]

I'm assuming that the four rikishi with voting rights will be Asashoryu, Hakuho, Kaio and Chiyotaikai (if still active).

Some technicalities:

There are 109 people who have the right to vote for the rijikai- the 105 toshiyori (not including the two vacant kabu-Asakayama and Araiso), 2 active rikishi (Kotomitsuki and KaioU, representatives of the rikishi) and two tate-gyojis.

*slaps head* Asashoryu and Hakuho aren't eligible to vote as foreigners, I suppose. Shoulda figured that out earlier...

BTW, just for clarification: "minimum 10 votes required" only applies when they get to neatly apportion the votes to the candidates beforehand. If they're getting to an actual vote with concomitant messy voter distribution, it could be less than that - according to that place I always cite, Takadagawa won his post with just 8 votes in the 1998 debacle.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Asashosakari

[madorosumaru 7]

BTW, just for clarification: "minimum 10 votes required" only applies when they get to neatly apportion the votes to the candidates beforehand. If they're getting to an actual vote with concomitant messy voter distribution, it could be less than that - according to that place I always cite, Takadagawa won his post with just 8 votes in the 1998 debacle.

What the article meant to say was that a minimum of 10 votes would be needed to be "assured" of being elected. One could win election with less than 10, as you indicated in the Takadagawa case. Or the vote could end in a tie as in 2002 when Musashigawa and Minato each received 9 votes. Musashigawa was elected in a subsequent run-off, 63-45.

[Zentoryu 154]

Some technicalities:

There are 109 people who have the right to vote for the rijikai- the 105 toshiyori (not including the two vacant kabu-Asakayama and Araiso), 2 active rikishi (Kotomitsuki and KaioU, representatives of the rikishi) and two tate-gyojis.

*slaps head* Asashoryu and Hakuho aren't eligible to vote as foreigners, I suppose. Shoulda figured that out earlier...

I could have sworn Musashimaru had a vote when he was Yokozuna. Of course that could be my faulty memory (or did he get to vote because he had citizenship?)

[ilovesumo 12]

Re-education programs for retired rikishi is definitely something they should consider and move on. Whether they would is a question.

There are already some Rikishi who attend schools...some Oyakata know, some Rikishi have to do it secretly (and they must pay school fee etc...).

Yeah, maybe I am too much into the gaijin-topic, but some oyakata I have spoken to (I don't think this was tatemae to me gaijn, but you never now) indeed said that they would like to take in one or 2 additional gaijin and it is too bad they cannot.

(Asked all Oyakata I could, who they think is going to be the next Rijichou and why they think so.)One Takasago Oyakata told me, he would support Taka, but now after that Ichimon-hiccup- who knows, but as in the translated quotes- why would other Ichimon be concearned a all? Maybe it was a well planned step, to become the "neutral president of em all".

Quote Asashozakari

At any rate, if there's one issue on which I've significantly changed my mind over the last few years, it's the number of stables in existence and their continued right to exist. Back when the Kyokai instituted its tougher requirements for opening new stables, I was moaning about how that curtails the ability of promising would-be shishos to contribute to the Kyokai, but more and more I'm convinced that that's a small price to pay for dealing with the issue of all those half-comatose stables like Takashima-beya. Sorry, but screw that oyakata - I don't care one bit that he could revitalize his stable on the cheap by taking in a bunch of new foreign deshi. It's always "oh, but there aren't enough Japanese recruits", but frankly I consider that complete BS. If an utterly unremarkable oyakata like Arashio can build his stable to respectable size through determined recruiting efforts, so can anyone. We've got 50+ stables and I'm convinced at least a quarter of them don't do any active recruiting whatsoever. Solve that problem and you're solving the alleged issue of decreasing interest among Japanese youth. And since it's becoming clear that that problem is only getting solved if we're increasing the number of oyakata per stable again (so that there's some available manpower for active recruiting in every stable), I'm happy to wave bye-bye to Takashima-beya et al. And no, I don't care that that would ultimately cost a foreigner spot under the current regulations; I'm a fan of Ozumo, not foreign participation in Ozumo.

Many Oyakata are singing this song. Too many heya for a low number of boys willing to joind an most run off...

There aren't many japanese boys willing to join cause they watch Sumo on TV and it becomes their dream to join, so one has to be smart enough to hold kid's tournaments in the name of the Shisho. Nishikido often does that and bingo- that Honda is a good one!

They all must ganbarize more! Image-work and love for Sumo itself!

Edit: And more love and respect for the kids. Heya with fatherly Oyakata have deshi. The Shindeshi-generation lived a less and less "Japanese" way of life. "Just not beeing hit with the bamboo stick" isn't enough for a kid. There has to be supporting and consoling and a healthy relationship between teacher and pupil. You learn more and want to please the teacher you love and respect - an that is one who respects you as well.

Edited January 9, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Asashosakari 19,319]

I could have sworn Musashimaru had a vote when he was Yokozuna. Of course that could be my faulty memory (or did he get to vote because he had citizenship?)

That's what I'm assuming, i.e. since the rikishi representatives effectively have oyakata standing for this directorship vote, they probably fall under the same citizenship requirement here as they would for acquiring a kabu. So even though the two yokozuna are almost certainly rikishi reps as well, they're not voting here, just Kaio and Mickey. My guess anyway...

This could of course prove interesting if we ever do reach a point when only foreigners are found in the yokozuna and ozeki ranks, where the representatives are customarily taken from.

What the article meant to say was that a minimum of 10 votes would be needed to be "assured" of being elected. One could win election with less than 10, as you indicated in the Takadagawa case. Or the vote could end in a tie as in 2002 when Musashigawa and Minato each received 9 votes. Musashigawa was elected in a subsequent run-off, 63-45.

Thanks. (Sign of approval...) BTW, were those vote results from 1998-2002 made public in full somewhere, or did just bits and pieces make the press?

Edited January 9, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Fay 1,677]

in english (with another beautiful pic (Sign of approval...) )

Mainichi

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

I could have sworn Musashimaru had a vote when he was Yokozuna. Of course that could be my faulty memory (or did he get to vote because he had citizenship?)

Musashimaru and Akebono got Japanese citizenship as early as 1996 so Musashimaru definitely was Japanese (citizen) throughout his time as yokozuna.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

Takanohana has some 7 guaranteed votes from within the Ichimon ...

Since we were previously at only six: number 7 is supposedly Magaki-oyakata, also not a huge surprise if true.

[ilovesumo 12]

This could of course prove interesting if we ever do reach a point when only foreigners are found in the yokozuna and ozeki ranks, where the representatives are customarily taken from.

Hack and Osh, with their Japanese wives might have it soon enough.

So, at least for the paperwork => Japanese

Bet there are people to keep the paperwork done quickly enough, not to reach that point. (Sign of approval...)

[madorosumaru 7]

BTW, were those vote results from 1998-2002 made public in full somewhere, or did just bits and pieces make the press?

Bit and pieces. To be honest, I think we, in the Forum, are the only people outside of the Kyokai who are interested in the gory details. (Sign of approval...)

That's what I'm assuming, i.e. since the rikishi representatives effectively have oyakata standing for this directorship vote, they probably fall under the same citizenship requirement here as they would for acquiring a kabu. So even though the two yokozuna are almost certainly rikishi reps as well, they're not voting here, just Kaio and Mickey. My guess anyway...

理事選に投票できるのは１０５人の親方のほか、立行司２人と大関以上で日本国籍を持つ琴光喜、魁皇の力士会代表２人を加えた１０９人. The 109 people who are eligible to vote in the riji election, in addition to the 105 oyakata, are the two tate-gyoji and the two rikishi representatives, Kaio and Kotomitsuki, who hold Japanese citizenship.

[Washuyama 641]

Very Interesting.......

[Zentoryu 154]

I could have sworn Musashimaru had a vote when he was Yokozuna. Of course that could be my faulty memory (or did he get to vote because he had citizenship?)

Musashimaru and Akebono got Japanese citizenship as early as 1996 so Musashimaru definitely was Japanese (citizen) throughout his time as yokozuna.

Glad to know my memory hasn't completely failed me yet. (Sign of approval...)

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Elections-February 1st.