No dark sarcasm, in the classroom

[Asameshimae 220]

I am not faulting Japanese people nor the person who posted before me, or even Asashoryu for anything, least of all shallowness. I was just pointing out a difference that I found interesting when I first discovered it. Until I came to Japan, sarcasm was one of my possibly overused devices for being humourous, or in my angrier moments, for being sardonic (lucky for me I never get angry anymore (In jonokuchi...) I have been in Japan for 14 years now, and admittedly it took me the first few of those years (I am slow to adapt) to realize that no matter how good my Japanese got, sarcasm, however innocuously used (yes, in my shallow understanding of the culture and what people perceive as innocuous) was usually not going over well. I do realize that sarcasm exists in Japanese, but it is not used nearly to the extent it is used in many cultures and countries. But because of this difference there are times when people here simply completely misunderstand my meaning because of the fact that sarcasm is simply not used to the same extent here. One example I can think of on the fly: In the past, there have been a number of times where I have been watching a sports team I have never liked much losing a game, and inadvertantly, a few "ah, zannen da na" and "shippai shita ne" have slipped out, and the Japanese person I was with, even someone who I had known for years, would have to clarify again that I did not like this team, because I now seemed to be feeling sorry for said team. And yes, of course, this represents my misunderstanding of the culture and the use of the language, not anything faulting them. This was simply not a linguistic device used in said situation.

However, the way I worded my post should have been better thought out. I would not want to appear shallow; even if I am. ;-)

Of course, my son has picked up my sarcastic bent a little too much, and is able to pull it off more convincingly than I can, being a native speaker of Japanese, but he still gets himself into trouble with it now and then, and I am probably a little to blame for that.

And about people taking sumo too seriously, I know I don't. But the fact that other people do is part of what makes it interesting for me. Until, I started coming to this forum, my wife was much more update on what was going on in the lives of sumo wrestlers, and even in yaocho et al, from watching it on TV. I just liked watching sumo, that stuff doesn't interest me overly much. But other people's interest in it, if it doesn't go too far, is interesting. If I get too much of it, all I have to do is switch off.

Comments?

Edit: Having said all this, I even realize after being in Japan so long that I now often find English commentary on TV overly sarcastic. I wonder why they can't just come out and say what they mean, i.e. "Many political pundits are NOT EXACTLY THRILLED about B. Obama's Peace Prize." And one commentator, Lou Dobbs, who has either been taken off or moved to a time slot I am not home for, is so sarcastic that I often lose track of what he is really trying to say.

Anyway, comments?

Edited October 11, 2009 by Asanomeshi

[ryafuji 814]

Great thread title (In a state of confusion...) Pink Floyd fan, by any chance?

I don't have enough knowledge of Japan to really comment, unfortunately, but I found what you said interesting nonetheless as I've also moved to another country, the US, although in my case I've only been here just over a year. The cliche which I'd heard before living here was that Americans "don't get irony" (I wonder where that one started?) but to be honest I can't say I've noticed that.

[Asameshimae 220]

It is interesting the things you hear. I have also heard that Americans don't get deadpan humor, which I also don't believe to be true. There are many examples, but a primary example I can think of is the late, great Buster Keaton who was considered the master of deadpan humor and this was before sound even made it to the movies.

[wanderer 159]

This is very interesting discussion. What I've understood from my past experience is that every nation has different cultures, and different means of using sarcasm, or even simple humor in their daily life. I think every nation has ability to use them, if they are used correctly in their cultural context. Also, lack of language proficiency and insufficient cultural assimilation makes it difficult for someone not native to make a sense of humor.

I have been living in the US for 9 years now. I could see that Americans are funny, happy people, and even watch their comedies. My friends and colleagues make fun of each other, and use sarcasm daily.

But I find that Americans are so easily offended or alarmed by so many minute things that other people will find totally innocent. I know my English is to blame here, that I was not able to convey the humor. Still, it takes a good measure of thought and skills to feel comfortable with Americans. Many people who I've thought are good friends suddenly gets offended or upset on very minute things.

In contrast, I am at ease with people from Europe, Latin America, and Africa. I don't know what is it. But this is a fact. I think , Japanese aren't the only ones who seem not able to understand teasing, joking, or sarcasm. Americans too in my view. The same is probably true about Mongolians. I would not surprise if someone complains about inability of Mongolians to understand a humor.

Cheers.

[Asojima 2,874]

But I find that Americans are so easily offended or alarmed by so many minute things that other people will find totally innocent. I know my English is to blame here, that I was not able to convey the humor. Still, it takes a good measure of thought and skills to feel comfortable with Americans. Many people who I've thought are good friends suddenly gets offended or upset on very minute things.

You are seeing the result of recent changes in the US educational system and the nature of our political dialogue. Taking offense has replaced baseball as the national pastime.

[ryafuji 814]

But I find that Americans are so easily offended or alarmed by so many minute things that other people will find totally innocent. I know my English is to blame here, that I was not able to convey the humor. Still, it takes a good measure of thought and skills to feel comfortable with Americans. Many people who I've thought are good friends suddenly gets offended or upset on very minute things.

You are seeing the result of recent changes in the US educational system and the nature of our political dialogue. Taking offense has replaced baseball as the national pastime.

Not only in the US. I noticed the same problem in the UK - different groups competing with each other to see who could take the most offence at such-and-such a play or book or TV show. I don't believe anyone has the right not to be offended by something.

[Asameshimae 220]

"Still, it takes a good measure of thought and skills to feel comfortable with Americans."

I find that comment very prejudiced and am (sob) (Shaking head...) hurt!... Sorry, couldn't help myself. :'-(

I wonder, have you lived for any length of time in any of the other countries in all of these continents of "Europe, Latin America, and Africa" that you describe? It may not just be that you are more comfortable with these people because of their national personalities, but that you are more comfortable being with other foreigners who are in the same boat as you. I speak Japanese and get along well with Japanese people, but I am always a little more at ease hanging out with other foreigners because we share that "outsider" bond and give each other a little more slack about what comes out of our mouths. I am not saying this is your situation, I am just pondering.

I really shouldn't have used the word sarcasm; I should have used the word irony. I am not saying Japanese people don't understand or use teasing or joking, I am saying they don't generally use the specific tool of irony, which dictionary.com defines as: "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply,

[kotoeikoku 0]

I really shouldn't have used the word sarcasm; I should have used the word irony. I am not saying Japanese people don't understand or use teasing or joking, I am saying they don't generally use the specific tool of irony

Oh I don't know, my friends regularly use irony. 'Yoku yatta ne' is about as condescending as you can get.

A British friend of mine used to work as a chauffeur. He once had three Japanese businessmen in the back of his BMW, one of whom was clearly very important. Unfortunately for him, the spare tire had come loose and was bumping around in the back making quite a racket.

One of the underlings leaned forward to him and whispered conspiratorially 'Do you have a problem with the car?'

He explained, and the man continued, 'would you like to fix it?'

After stopping the car and fixing the spare tire, he got back in and started the engine, at which point the head honcho leaned forward and said, dripping with sarcasm, 'and we thought BMWs always made that noise.'

And then all three laughed hysterically.

I think, as someone alluded to earlier with regards to irony, it is more that different situations/events are considered appropriate for humour/irony in Japan than in the US/UK etc.? Situations where humour is appropriate are culturally specific too, after all.

Edited October 17, 2009 by kotoeikoku

[Asameshimae 220]

I really shouldn't have used the word sarcasm; I should have used the word irony. I am not saying Japanese people don't understand or use teasing or joking, I am saying they don't generally use the specific tool of irony

Oh I don't know, my friends regularly use irony. 'Yoku yatta ne' is about as condescending as you can get.

A British friend of mine used to work as a chauffeur. He once had three Japanese businessmen in the back of his BMW, one of whom was clearly very important. Unfortunately for him, the spare tire had come loose and was bumping around in the back making quite a racket.

One of the underlings leaned forward to him and whispered conspiratorially 'Do you have a problem with the car?'

He explained, and the man continued, 'would you like to fix it?'

After stopping the car and fixing the spare tire, he got back in and started the engine, at which point the head honcho leaned forward and said, dripping with sarcasm, 'and we thought BMWs always made that noise.'

And then all three laughed hysterically.

I think, as someone alluded to earlier with regards to irony, it is more that different situations/events are considered appropriate for humour/irony in Japan than in the US/UK etc.? Situations where humour is appropriate are culturally specific too, after all.

[Asameshimae 220]

"After stopping the car and fixing the spare tire, he got back in and started the engine, at which point the head honcho leaned forward and said, dripping with sarcasm, 'and we thought BMWs always made that noise.' "

Is he sure they were Japanese? More than a few times, I have been somewhere with a friend who talked about all the Japanese tourists in an area, etc. and when I see them and hear them talking, they turn out to be Korean or Chinese. (said with tongue-in-cheek of course..)

[wanderer 159]

"Still, it takes a good measure of thought and skills to feel comfortable with Americans."

I find that comment very prejudiced and am (sob) (Shaking head...) hurt!... Sorry, couldn't help myself. :'-(

I wonder, have you lived for any length of time in any of the other countries in all of these continents of "Europe, Latin America, and Africa" that you describe? It may not just be that you are more comfortable with these people because of their national personalities, but that you are more comfortable being with other foreigners who are in the same boat as you. I speak Japanese and get along well with Japanese people, but I am always a little more at ease hanging out with other foreigners because we share that "outsider" bond and give each other a little more slack about what comes out of our mouths. I am not saying this is your situation, I am just pondering.

I really shouldn't have used the word sarcasm; I should have used the word irony. I am not saying Japanese people don't understand or use teasing or joking, I am saying they don't generally use the specific tool of irony, which dictionary.com defines as: "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply,

[Asameshimae 220]

Wanderer is certainly an apt name for you! You do seem to have a pretty good background for the comparisons you make.

It is interesting to hear these viewpoints. I, as you may have sussed out, am an American. I don't know America as well as I used to, having not lived there for 14 years. Some of the tendencies you describe truly bother me, if they are true. I would try to argue your points, but I haven't made a "new" friend in the US in all this time, so I am in no position to judge. I have heard from my friends how the US is becoming more and more legalistic and people are afraid of getting sued, etc. etc.

Having said that, I have never loaned money to somebody and had them sign a piece of paper, or vice versa (though I will admit, back when I was a poor college student, I sometimes wished I had!)

"(Oh, poor Mongolians, in contrast, will help each other with $20,000 and say nothing.)" !!! Poor Mongolians have 20,000 dollars to throw around and say nothing? My image of the average Mongolian has changed drastically! I definitely need more Mongolian friends! (;

But back to the tendencies you ascribe to Americans. As I said, I don't know Americans these days very well, and to be honest I have only lived in my home state of Iowa even when I was in the US. Either way, in my 24 years in Iowa, I saw little to none of the things you describe (except for the legalistic stuff my friends have described to me), and I wonder where it is you live? America is a very large country of 300 million people with lots of regional variations. I remember when my brother moved to California, he would complain to me how shallow and touchy and into themselves Californians (or at last LA denizens) seemed. 9 years later, he has in some ways become the Californian/Southern Californian/LA'er he complained about...but I still love him anyway.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Asanomeshi

[wanderer 159]

Having said that, I have never loaned money to somebody and had them sign a piece of paper, or vice versa (though I will admit, back when I was a poor college student, I sometimes wished I had!)

"(Oh, poor Mongolians, in contrast, will help each other with $20,000 and say nothing.)" !!! Poor Mongolians have 20,000 dollars to throw around and say nothing? My image of the average Mongolian has changed drastically! I definitely need more Mongolian friends! (;

I understand what you mean that you never had to loan a money. US is a vast country and many immigrants come every year. They go through many difficulties that your ancestors probably faced. Things happen. There are not many mongolians who can through 20 grand around, but those who have do really through it if their friend is in need. That is the difference. I am not implying that Americans should be like that. But when my car breaks down and I need a tire to get my son around, I would hope to have a friend who can just help me buy a tire and get his money back in just few days. I was shocked to the condition that I had to sign on a legal paper for $200.00, from a friend. (The money transfer I arranged from Mongolia, was used to take at least a week to be deposited to US bank. Nowadays, it is available in 1 hour. I probably don't need to loan a money again from an American.)

But back to the tendencies you ascribe to Americans. As I said, I don't know Americans these days very well, and to be honest I have only lived in my home state of Iowa even when I was in the US. Either way, in my 24 years in Iowa, I saw little to none of the things you describe (except for the legalistic stuff my friends have described to me), and I wonder where it is you live? America is a very large country of 300 million people with lots of regional variations. I remember when my brother moved to California, he would complain to me how shallow and touchy and into themselves Californians (or at last LA denizens) seemed. 9 years later, he has in some ways become the Californian/Southern Californian/LA'er he complained about...but I still love him anyway.

I agree with you. America is a vast country and there are many kinds of people. I am sure that good ones vastly outnumber the bad ones. What I can tell you however, is that you don't really know how Americans are if you are an american. Me too, I don't really know how different are Mongolians from the rest, because I myself is a Mongol. So it is just a difference in culture. Back to the topic:

Japanese, Americans, and Mongolians, they are all different in using and understanding a dark sarcasm.

[Asameshimae 220]

"I understand what you mean that you never had to loan a money."

Actually, I said that in my time in America, I have never asked someone to sign a piece of paper when I loaned them money, and I have never been asked to sign a piece of paper when someone loaned me money. I did not say that I have never loaned money or been loaned money, because this is something I have done innumerable times.

Anyway, if there are people you have known for years who are asking you to sing a piece of paper for 200 dollars that you really needed right away, this is a sad thing. I do hope it has not become the norm.

Cheers

[Andreas 0]

Back on the sense of humor, my wife, who is Mongolian, doesnt like "black humor" which is quite common in Germany. In Germany, we make jokes about bad things that might happen or happened in order to relax. (there is even a saying, "Hals- und Beinbruch" which means break neck and leg, you say it instead of "good luck").

My wife insists that you cant say things like that because it would be more likely for them to happen if You talk about it, so it brings bad luck.

A Mongolian kind of joke seems to tell outrageous lies with a straight and innocent face and wait how long it takes until the other realizes its a joke.