Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted December 11, 2003 Hmm... Rijicho looks rather worryingly over my shoulder. I can tell he's not pleased with me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 If you want my opinion Koto,the best thing to do would be to let it run for now but if it gets out of hand close the thread-Im sure we will support whatever decision you make-I will for sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaikitsune Makoto 209 Posted December 11, 2003 No worries Rijicho. This is off-topic forum.... I like the thread at least. Interesting posts and thoughts! No blood... there is only one God out there,all the others are mere images created by the mind of man This is the thing I would like to ask about. Do you actively acknowladge that there are millions of people whose devotion is as strong as yours while having different faith than yours or is it impossible to imagine that people could have such a strong feeling (the holy spirit thing, the profound feeling of knowing that god exists) and be totally wrong? What I mean is that is it possible to "step out" of your belief and see the situation objectively? What interests me in this is the exact nature of the certainty many religious people have that their god is the only real one. Naturally religion is by default a matter of belief and in this it becomes a matter of opinions really so totally opposite views can both be 100% sure their stand is the correct one and no outside "panel" can really weigh these and determine which is better or closer to truth but if you step back from the situation and observe it as an "outsider", I would assume it is difficult NOT to see the certain tragicomedy in it. Tragicomedy being that there has to be huge number of people who are wrong no matter what the truth may be and these people are soooooo sure they are right. This just strikes me as quite strange situation somehow! Of course many religions are also close to one another in some ways.. I think religion is unique in this way. In science debates are about facts that can be measured at least to some degree. For example the debate over possibility of time traveling is very technical although nobody knows how it could done in practise really. Speculation is still fact-based to some degree. All sorts of opinions on less significant matters like preferences of movies, colours etc. is just small talk (well....for most) but religion is somewhat unique being so big part of religious people's lives and yet so untangible on concrete level making it an even field for all participants. You can't count probabilities in this topic. You can say that it is highly improbable that goofy individuals who commit a suicide claiming they are leaving earth to incorporate themselves into a planet D26a where the creator of all floats on top of a sea of unknown substance which is the Essence, that they are right but you still can't say for sure because you can never know. One thing is sure though. For many (not all) people it is absolutely a blessing (no pun intended..) to have this devoted religious feeling as they can base quite a lot on that and draw power and rely on their religion in good and bad times. It doesn't really matter if that would turn out to be false as the feeling is genuine no matter what. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted December 11, 2003 No worries Rijicho. This is off-topic forum.... I like the thread at least. Interesting posts and thoughts! No blood... Personally I think this is a very dangerous thread that is just waiting to blow up, and I'd advice rijicho to close it at earliest convenience, but as long as it's alive... This is the thing I would like to ask about. Do you actively acknowladge that there are millions of people whose devotion is as strong as yours while having different faith than yours or is it impossible to imagine that people could have such a strong feeling (the holy spirit thing, the profound feeling of knowing that god exists) and be totally wrong? What I mean is that is it possible to "step out" of your belief and see the situation objectively? What interests me in this is the exact nature of the certainty many religious people have that their god is the only real one. Naturally religion is by default a matter of belief and in this it becomes a matter of opinions really so totally opposite views can both be 100% sure their stand is the correct one and no outside "panel" can really weigh these and determine which is better or closer to truth but if you step back from the situation and observe it as an "outsider", I would assume it is difficult NOT to see the certain tragicomedy in it. Tragicomedy being that there has to be huge number of people who are wrong no matter what the truth may be and these people are soooooo sure they are right. This just strikes me as quite strange situation somehow! Of course many religions are also close to one another in some ways.. About right or wrong, maybe they are all right? I mean, possibly God simply IS different to different people, because given that the minds of people are different, the way to enter the portal to different minds will also be different. This would of course mean that religious squabbling is ridiculous, but it would also mean that there is not something as clear-cut as right and wrong in the issue, or rather, it's not an interesting topic as regards to the issue. Observe that this is not a belief of mine, but merely a speculation as to how different beliefs could fit together. I think religion is unique in this way. In science debates are about facts that can be measured at least to some degree. For example the debate over possibility of time traveling is very technical although nobody knows how it could done in practise really. Speculation is still fact-based to some degree. All sorts of opinions on less significant matters like preferences of movies, colours etc. is just small talk (well....for most) but religion is somewhat unique being so big part of religious people's lives and yet so untangible on concrete level making it an even field for all participants. You can't count probabilities in this topic. You can say that it is highly improbable that goofy individuals who commit a suicide claiming they are leaving earth to incorporate themselves into a planet D26a where the creator of all floats on top of a sea of unknown substance which is the Essence, that they are right but you still can't say for sure because you can never know. Well, philosophy tends to very often simply be nothing else than beliefs and is in that way very close to religion, although it's generally easier to actually discuss with some objectivity. The subject of time traveling is also at the very least dancing on the edge of pure belief, if not stepping over the line. Nothing necessarily wrong about that as long as there are at least some basic points to which the theory is attachable to known facts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,093 Posted December 11, 2003 Hmm...Rijicho looks rather worryingly over my shoulder. I can tell he's not pleased with me. I warned you!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,093 Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) To start with Kinta,there is only one God out there,all the others are mere images created by the mind of man.What is the best way to get to know anyone Kinta?Ask him yourself and be prepared to accept the answer because I guarantee it wont be the one you expect. Which is the "one God out there"? Mine or yours? Neither? And why should I get an answer that I don't expect from anyone? And an answer to what question? Ask who? God himself? He never answers me, regretfully, and please don't tell me that "I can't read the signs..". And if you mean humans, I've asked countless humans countless questions, and the large majority of answers were exactly what I expected.. So I'm still in the dark here.. Edited December 11, 2003 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 Quick post,gotta go to work. Is it possible to look at your faith obectively-Yes! Is it easy? No but the more sincere you are about it,the easier it is. Is it possible to be 100% sure of your faith? I AM-Jesus said you WILL KNOW the truth and it will set you free. I wouldnt devote my life to anything less- Do I acknowledge that there are people just as devoted to their diffent faiths? I dont think thats possible,no. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 Answer me one question Kinta and be brutally honest- Do you really want to know the true God and to do his will whatever it is? Gotta go to work now back on this later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted December 11, 2003 Do I acknowledge that there are people just as devoted to their diffent faiths? I dont think thats possible,no. Which is a bit scary, given the number of people who have set themselves on fire in the name of their faith... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 The first thing we learn as Christians Yubi is a respect for life itself,the life of others and our own life-Dont worry I have absolutely no intenton of setting myself on fire,that isnt devotion its insanity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,093 Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) Answer me one question Kinta and be brutally honest-Do you really want to know the true God and to do his will whatever it is? Gotta go to work now back on this later. I don't have to be brutal about it..Not really.. I KNOW who my God is. His will? If he comes out and personally asks me to do something, I probably will. Not through some book or people who say they speak on his behalf. He wants me to do something? He should tell me directly. Edited December 11, 2003 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenjimoto 40 Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) It is possible that the Universe is exactly what you want it to be The presumption that there is an absolute Universe that is the exact same for all of us and represents a "one and only truth" is as unproven as anything else. The notion of the "individual universe", i.e. the absence of an absolute universe that is replaced by how each of us PERCEIVES the universe. In other words, I see the color blue, and I call it blue, and you call it blue, too - but do you see the same color I do, or a different color alltogether - one that you know as "blue"? You may see a color I have never seen. Imagine a color you haven't seen yet. It's pretty hard... Concept of "individual universe" makes if possible for everybody to get what they want. After all, we perceive the universe through our senses, physical and spiritual. What our senses tell us is true, is true to us. It becomes our universe. Edited December 11, 2003 by Zenjimoto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 In other words you want him to instruct you on your terms Kinta-Theres the answer to your question of why he hasnt revealed himself to you,like I said we need to search for him not wait for him to come to us. As for knowing your god-Everybody knows their god as you yourself have said but do you know 'God'?. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,093 Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) In other words you want him to instruct you on your terms Kinta-Theres the answer to your question of why he hasnt revealed himself to you,like I said we need to search for him not wait for him to come to us.As for knowing your god-Everybody knows their god as you yourself have said but do you know 'God'?. No, I don't want him to instruct me on my terms. I don't want to be instructed on any terms. I just want him to come out and tell me what he wants, just like I want my 10 year old daughter to tell me what she wants.. Then, there will be no ambiguity. "Knowing your God", "we need to search for him". Mumbo jumbo. From this, I gather you've had a cup of coffee with him and chatted about this and that? Allow me to to have my doubts. If God is here, let his presence be known!! BTW, I treat psychics, telepaths and UFOs the same way: Prove to me that you are psychic/telepathic/alien being. Tell me what 5 digit number I'm THINKING of-not writing down, not saying to someone.. THINKING of. The first guy that does that turns me into a fervent believer. I want tangible proof. Something I can see. The rest, to me, is mumbo-jumbo. It's me, I know. It's me. Edited December 11, 2003 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 You have me wrong I think Kinta,I dont claim to have had a cup of coffee or chatted to him except in prayer of course and he as never spoken to me-I dont claim to have had any tangible contact with God at all-Everything I need to know about is what there is right here all around us in the wonders of creation and he as provided me with an instruction manual so I know exactly how to live in the earth he created=Gods word the bible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 11, 2003 Kintamayama said "Its me,I know its me,"No Kinta its you and millions of others,who think exactly the same. Do you really think if God did all the things you say it would change peoples attitude? What if God himself said to you-You can eat from any tree you like on earth except one-could you resist trying the forbidden fruit? Adam and eve couldnt. What if God sent his son to the earth and whilst his son was here he performed miracles for you to see,including raising the dead-would you follow his son to gain a greater knowledge of the father? Most didnt,then they killed him. When God took direct action in the past for a witness to people it made no difference,why should it now?- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,309 Posted December 11, 2003 It is possible that the Universe is exactly what you want it to be The presumption that there is an absolute Universe that is the exact same for all of us and represents a "one and only truth" is as unproven as anything else. The notion of the "individual universe", i.e. the absence of an absolute universe that is replaced by how each of us PERCEIVES the universe. In other words, I see the color blue, and I call it blue, and you call it blue, too - but do you see the same color I do, or a different color alltogether - one that you know as "blue"? You may see a color I have never seen. Imagine a color you haven't seen yet. It's pretty hard... Concept of "individual universe" makes if possible for everybody to get what they want. After all, we perceive the universe through our senses, physical and spiritual. What our senses tell us is true, is true to us. It becomes our universe. I enjoy the logical conclusion of the "individual/perceived universe" idea, namely the question: Imagine that nobody conscious were around to observe the universe - would it still exist? (Basically the "If a tree falls and no one's around to hear it..." question writ large.) My strictly personal answer is "of course it would", which is why the whole idea is a bit too metaphysical for me to accept it as correct, but I can certainly see the allure of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,093 Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) What if God himself said to you-You can eat from any tree you like on earth except one-could you resist trying the forbidden fruit? Adam and eve couldnt. If that happened I don't know what I'd do, but I'd know one thing for sure-that there is a God!! What if God sent his son to the earth and whilst his son was here he performed miracles for you to see,including raising the dead-would you follow his son to gain a greater knowledge of the father? Most didnt,then they killed him. For starters, I'd like to see proof that: A. God sent someone. B. It was his son. C. He raised the dead. If I had tangible proof, (and not some hearsay over 2000 years old), I probably would be inclined to follow, yes. But alas, all we have are stories, that have many, many versions to them.. One fact I never got straight: Is Jesus God, or his son? Since I was not brought up as a Christian, I truly don't know the answer, and the diference between various Christian factions that makes them loathe each other so much. Edited December 11, 2003 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted December 12, 2003 The faint voice of reason inside tells me: "Lock this thread. Ask people to pretend it never existed. Ask them to go discuss about this somewhere else..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenjimoto 40 Posted December 12, 2003 (edited) For starters, I'd like to see proof that:A. God sent someone. B. It was his son. C. He raised the dead. Re-li-gion: 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Religion is by definition based on belief, and not on factual proof. As soon as there is proof - it becomes science. (Punk rocker...) Edited December 12, 2003 by Zenjimoto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zentoryu 154 Posted December 12, 2003 The faint voice of reason inside tells me: "Lock this thread. Ask people to pretend it never existed. Ask them to go discuss about this somewhere else..." Good idea... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,093 Posted December 12, 2003 Re-li-gion:1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Religion is by definition based on belief, and not on factual proof. As soon as there is proof - it becomes science. (Punk rocker...) OK, point taken. So, if I get proof of His existence, I become a scientist!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 12, 2003 Actually Zenji,my faith is based purely on facts and evidence- What your talking about would be BLIND faith and I would not give my life over to any God without proof of his existence,that would be stupid. As the bible says,just as every house has a builder,so it is logical the earth and its lifeforms must have had a builder,thats not faith Zenji its sound scientific reasoning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted December 12, 2003 Point is Kintamaya with verbal or other personal contact with God,you would know he existed but that doesnt mean you would obey him,does it? The Devil knows of Gods existence and he doesnt do his will. Actually the point is best demonstrated in the arrival of his SON on the earth-The Jewish leaders where expecting his arrival at that time based on bible prophecy but when he wasnt what they wanted the messiah to be they rejected him. In the same way when most people are presented with the true God they reject him because he isnt "THEIR GOD,"he isnt the person they want him to be. A guy said to me once that we all have our opinions and my answer was "I dont want an opinion,I want the truth,whatever it is." You said there are many story versions of Jesus life-No theres just one and its in the bible for all to to read. You asked is Jesus God or Gods Son? What does God himself say?MAT3*17 "This is my SON,the beloved whom I have approved."Pretty clear I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted December 12, 2003 Well, I suppose religion was bound to make it on to this forum sooner or later. I'm just grateful it's later. (Punk rocker...) Do you get much spam of this kind Kotoseiya-zeki? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
