Makunouchi surprises....

[Fujisan 533]

We often talk about Makunouchi prospects but what about the other side of that....

Who in Makunouchi do you think how the heck did he make it to Makunouchi?

Bushuyamas is my main one I had written him off last time he dropped to makushita and didn't think he'd be back in Juryo again let alone Makunouchi......

[Zenjimoto 40]

I'd have to say Tamawashi! Nothing in his lower division career seemed too impressive, and when he won the Makushita Yusho, I thought he would come crashing back down, but instead he became Sekitori next basho, and now he might be the next Sekiwake West! (well, getting ahead of myself here, but he's great in the running) (Sign of approval...)

[Washuyama 641]

Hakuba (Sign of approval...)

[ilovesumo 12]

Hmmm....

None of em. Each has his "few minutes of fame", even if it is just one Basho. And each had enough KK to come there...

If at all, it is the currently active, former nichidai team. YMY is much too big, so he "walzed" the kids in the lower divisions down. Saw his first few Basho in Japan...if it was only size that matters, Kainowaka and other big boys would be up there too, so he gets my respect too.

Ichihara it not my fave either.

And if Fukao ever makes it............. (Sign of approval...) he was terrible in the daigakusei championships I saw, hope he learnes a lot now...

As the Oyakata do not really like the Daigakusei rikishi, since this generation I feel the same for them. (nothing against Mickey, Kaiho, Kanbayashi , Bushu, etc...).

It's not about those who start from Makushita on, no - all the guys, who start in their 20s, if they feel special or not, - they have Anideshi in their heya, who are younger then them, 15-years old boys. The whole hierarchy get's messed up, if a daigakusei joins.

Understood that now and I do believe that is bad for the youngster's psych. condition.

Edited January 18, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Asashosakari 19,319]

It's not about those who start from Makushita on, no - all the guys, who start in their 20s, if they feel special or not, - they have Anideshi in their heya, who are younger then them, 15-years old boys. The whole hierarchy get's messed up, if a daigakusei joins.

Understood that now and I do believe that is bad for the youngster's psych. condition.

What about 20+ year old foreign shindeshi?

Seems to me, if it's really a problem, something like Kise-beya might be the model of the future, i.e. some stables dedicated primarily to collegiate rikishi, leaving the younger deshi to others.

[Vikanohara 171]

Reaching Makuuchi is one thing, but what surprises me more is that guys like Kitataiki & Hakuba can be on 7-2 ! And someone like Shotenro, who as a 20 year old was still going 1-6 in Sandanme, finally went from Makushita to high Maegashira in exactly one year. Those are the things amazing me. :-O

Also interesting to watch is how current Makuuchi rikishi started their career. For instance :

3-4 5-2 5-2 4-3 5-2 : Hakuho (back then, still only 80 kilos (Eh?) )

3-4 5-2 3-4 6-1 2-5 : Kaio (a few decennia ago :-P )

4-3 3-4 3-4 5-2 3-4 : Hokutoriki

5-2 3-4 5-2 4-3 3-4 : Bushuyama (as a 22 year old)

4-3 6-1 5-2 2-5 5-2 : Tamawashi (at the age of 19)

3-1 7-0 4-3 3-4 3-4 : Wakanosato

5-2 5-2 5-2 4-3 3-4 : Mokonami

4-3 5-2 4-3 4-3 3-4 : Koryu

5-2 3-4 4-3 3-4 5-2 2-5 : Kitataiki

4-3 5-2 5-2 1-1-5 0-0-7 : Hakuba (after which he continued 7-0 4-3 4-3 3-4 4-3 4-3 4-3 2-5 4-3 2-5,

still being stuck in the middle of Sandanme after almost 3 years)

So it seems long not all successful sumo wrestlers took off like 7-0 7-0 6-1 6-1 5-2.

Though most indeed did have a start like this. For instance :

7-0 6-1 5-2 6-1 6-1 6-1 : Aran (though he took off with 2-3 in Mae-zumo, losing from Minami, YMY & Ri)

5-2 5-2 5-2 5-2 5-2 6-1 : Shimotori (starting from Ms60TD)

6-1 6-1 4-3 6-1 4-3 13-2 : Tochinonada (also from Ms60TD, and becoming Komusubi with nothing but KK in less than 2 years)

7-0 7-0 5-2 6-1 5-2 : Baruto

7-0 6-1 7-0 4-3 7-0 : Goeido

6-1 6-1 6-1 5-2 7-0 : Tochiozan

6-1 6-1 6-1 4-3 6-1 : Takamisakari

5-2 7-0 6-1 5-2 6-1 : Toyohibiki

7-0 7-0 12-3 14-1 : Miyabiyama

7-0 6-1 6-1 7-0 : Yoshikaze

7-0 6-1 6-1 5-2 : Aminishiki

7-0 7-0 7-0 5-2 : Tokitenku

6-1 7-0 5-2 6-1 : Asasekiryu

6-1 6-1 7-0 7-0 : Kokkai

4-3 6-1 6-1 7-0 : Homasho

6-1 7-0 7-0 7-0 : Tosayutaka

Though starting age & weight play their part here. And of course the opposition they faced on their early path.

All this learns us one thing though : getting a 1-6 or worse in first four/five basho almost rules you out to ever reach Makuuchi. For sure some have walked this way, but I guess it might be a hard search. Whoever to come up with an example, earns tons of (Showing respect...) . (In a state of confusion...)

Edited January 18, 2010 by Vikanohara

[Asashosakari 19,319]

He's only a bit more than a cup'o'coffee Makuuchi (so far), but one guy who's certainly hanging around a lot higher than I thought he would is Kimurayama. I guess, in keeping with my theory posited the other day, the main difference between him and a dozen other low-upside college guys is that he hasn't had "his" injury yet...

But yeah, in larger terms I'm certainly on board with nominating Bushuyama. Couldn't be happier about that, too...for all the (often justified) griping about lackadaisical college rikishi, he's a big exception in that he's always been putting 100% into his bouts.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

So it seems long not all successful sumo wrestlers took off like 7-0 7-0 6-1 6-1 5-2.

... Though starting age & weight play their part here. And of course the opposition they faced on their early path.

All this learns us one thing though : getting a 1-6 or worse in first four/five basho almost rules you out to ever reach Makuuchi.

Well yeah, I've only been saying that multiple times a month for the last few years. (In a state of confusion...) There's certainly a kind of "performance floor" below which you shouldn't start your career, or it's relatively easy to say a particular rikishi probably won't make it. But that floor isn't at 6-1, 6-1, 6-1, etc. for anyone but college rikishi.

My rough rule of thumb: If you're well-established in sandanme before turning 19 and in makushita before turning 22, you've got a decent shot to at least see juryo at some point. (Not sure I can put a number on "decent", but I'll guesstimate 30-50%.) By extension, if you're a high-school debutant (i.e. age 18) you really should be able to go up right into sandanme, and as a collegiate debutant (age 22) right into makushita.

Edit:

All this learns us one thing though : getting a 1-6 or worse in first four/five basho almost rules you out to ever reach Makuuchi. For sure some have walked this way, but I guess it might be a hard search.

I knew I remembered seeing something like that with one guy. Here you go.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ilovesumo 12]

What about 20+ year old foreign shindeshi?

Seems to me, if it's really a problem, something like Kise-beya might be the model of the future, i.e. some stables dedicated primarily to collegiate rikishi, leaving the younger deshi to others.

We all know gaijin will never fit in, doesn't matter of what age (Showing respect...)

An "alien" is supposed not to fit in, while the Japanese boys must.

Never thought of an all-daigakusei-Heya...

mostly the daigakusei enter a heya the Uni had already connections to (?)

Am I the only Bushuyama fan here (In a state of confusion...)

Edited January 18, 2010 by ilovesumo

[ilovesumo 12]

Reaching Makuuchi is one thing, but what surprises me more is that guys like Kitataiki & Hakuba can be on 7-2 ! And someone like Shotenro, who as a 20 year old was still going 1-6 in Sandanme, finally went from Makushita to high Maegashira in exactly one year. Those are the things amazing me. (Showing respect...)

(On Shotenro)

Injury healed (?) plus an amazing amount of self confidence, after reaching Juuryou? (The feeling that one IS good enough, plus of attention which had never been there before...) (plus finding love, finally allowed to have a girlfriend (In a state of confusion...) )

AND - don't forget the change of Shikona!

(Same effect for that boy who never had a single kk in his entire Sumo life...- well, you can also give that one to attention and the face-saving-under-attention effect)

Former Daishi just wrote in his recent blog entry (about Taikai's intai) that mental strength is not everything in Sumo - but a big deal. (Eh?)

Edited January 18, 2010 by ilovesumo

[wanderer 159]

hey what about Hakuho, and Harumafuji?

Hakuho was not even considered worthy of anything, 172cm, 68 kg boy? Years of hard work could have made him to upper makushita at best. Come on, the dude became the second youngest Yokozuna? Surprise!

Harumafuji, well he works very hard, and people could have guessed he will eventually make it to makuuchi. But Ozeki with one yusho so far? Come on!

[Manekineko 200]

Am I the only Bushuyama fan here (Consoling...)

No. ;-)

[Takamizawa 0]

He's only a bit more than a cup'o'coffee Makuuchi (so far), but one guy who's certainly hanging around a lot higher than I thought he would is Kimurayama. I guess, in keeping with my theory posited the other day, the main difference between him and a dozen other low-upside college guys is that he hasn't had "his" injury yet...

^This. I think the quality of his sumo is rather poor too, so it's surprising he's hung around so high for as long as he has.

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

All this learns us one thing though : getting a 1-6 or worse in first four/five basho almost rules you out to ever reach Makuuchi. For sure some have walked this way, but I guess it might be a hard search.

I knew I remembered seeing something like that with one guy. Here you go.

There are even a few sekitori with a 0-7 in one of the first six basho, most often when debuting in high jonidan. Here is the complete list: Akinokuni, Kotohakusan, Daizen (one of two sanyaku in this list), Tsunenoyama (ok, that was later, and not even on his career high rank, following a 3-4), Daishi, Aogiyama (his 0-7 was even in his first basho in jonokuchi) and finally the active sekitori Wakatenro and Hokutoriki (also later, but matching the pattern - reaching career high rank in high jonidan).

Edited January 18, 2010 by Doitsuyama

[ilovesumo 12]

You never know if there was a reason for the bad performance. Remember Kyokushuuhooo, who was kicked up the dohyo despite a broken foot by his boss...

Sorry, after all those years I still cannot let the numbers speak alone (Consoling...)

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

You never know if there was a reason for the bad performance. Remember Kyokushuuhooo, who was kicked up the dohyo despite a broken foot by his boss...

Sorry, after all those years I still cannot let the numbers speak alone (Consoling...)

Well, in most of these cases the reason is that the youngster just wasn't yet strong enough, but had more potential in him to come out... there is another number-thing: Yokozuna Kitanoumi had a 0-7 in his sandanme debut... still only 14 years old and following a 7-0 in jonidan.

[Vikanohara 171]

I knew I remembered seeing something like that with one guy. Here you go.

Nice career, though not very impressive in Makuuchi. (In a state of confusion...)

hey what about Hakuho

See my list. He sure didn't take off like "that guy's going to become the next Yokozuna".

There are even a few sekitori with a 0-7 in one of the first six basho, most often when debuting in high jonidan. Here is the complete list: Akinokuni, Kotohakusan, Daizen (one of two sanyaku in this list), Tsunenoyama (ok, that was later, and not even on his career high rank, following a 3-4), Daishi, Aogiyama (his 0-7 was even in his first basho in jonokuchi) and finally the active sekitori Wakatenro and Hokutoriki (also later, but matching the pattern - reaching career high rank in high jonidan).

Oh, very interesting. Thanks. I love the numbers, though ilovesumo is right of course that every number has its story. It's just that at the end, mostly the numbers will be remembered.

[ilovesumo 12]

Oh, very interesting. Thanks. I love the numbers, though ilovesumo is right of course that every number has its story. It's just that at the end, mostly the numbers will be remembered.

Yeah. To me, this is a sad thing.

[Sokkenaiyama 81]

Kisenosato, Baruto, Kotooshu, Goeido and ESPECIALLY Harumafuji - (Censored...) :-O (Spooky TV program...) (Annoyed...) (In a state of confusion...) (Pulling hair...) (Wearing a paperbag...) (Hit the wall...) :-O (Eh?) :-/ >:-( :-S (Blinking...)

[Golynohana 320]

Kakizoe, Toyonoshima and Yoshikaze! (In love...) (Showing respect...) (Sign of disapproval...) (Neener, neener...)

Small bodies but great spirit!

[Fujisan 533]

And what the heck is Kakuryus story..... (Sign of disapproval...)

[Vikanohara 171]

I got this interesting URL in my mailbox today :

http://yubinhaad.angelfire.com/F_Zenpai2.html

EDIT : Mind the appropriate advertisement. (Sign of disapproval...)

Edited January 19, 2010 by Vikanohara

[kaiguma 0]

No one is really saying they don't like Bushuyama, we just didn't think he had what it takes, and yet he obviously does . . . have something . . . that still strangely doesn't look how we thought it should

o_O

Anyhow, much respect to the big saggy man on Pinocchio legs.

And may I add a fresh one? Sagatsukasa!

Really??

I wish him all the best, though I cannot imagine him sticking around another basho. And of course he has a ton of heart so he will probably surprise me. :-P

Edited January 27, 2010 by kaiguma