Ozumo - sport or not?

[Jonosuke 28]

Purity and beauty of sumo? Everything has a limit in this universe. How pure is it when a youngster gets beaten to death. How dignified are the rikishi when they go drinking in nightclubs on a regular basis. you really believe that these testosterone fueled guys go there only to go home keeping their virginity? How sacred is it when no woman can step on the dohyo? Are these rikishi not born of their mother?

I am not sure what have all those got to do with Asashoryu's intai but one thing I can ask is why are you following Ozumo at all? Its traditions and customs are closely intertwined with Edo culture and religious roots. It isn't really a sport. There are some major religions in the world which do not permit women from becoming priests so why bring that up for Ozumo?

For all those who keep getting upset with the way Ozumo operates can't get it past this particular phenomenon, that it is not simply a sport and if you are looking for it in sumo, you have come to a wrong place and you are more than likely disappointed. Why would the gyoji need to all dressed up if all they need is a t-shirt and white gloves with possibly with a bow tie? Why insists on sekitori to wear a mage? Why a yokozuna needs to do a dohyo iri ceremony at the Meiji Jingu or go praying at the Ise jingu annually?

Anyway regardless of all that Asashoryu did the right thing. It was apparent that he was about to get kicked out, losing all the pension monies and no intai sumo etc but by retiring himself he preserves all that and he will have people talking he could have won 25 more yusho if he did not retire at the age of 29.

All yokozuna will retire before they are totally spent. You won't see Kaio as yokozuna as if Kaio was yokozuna he would have been gone at least three years ago. Asashoryu was mentioning today how much he loved sumo. I don't doubt his sincerity but in the end he chose himself not to stay with Ozumo as he never decided to get a Japanese citizenship. Now I understand there are strong emotional attachment but if he had that, he could have stayed but he knew all that and long ago he chose his destiny and it was not with Ozumo.

Ozumo was here before Asashoryu - actually thriving in the days of Taka-Waka. Ozumo will be here after Asashoryu. Some fans leave Ozumo for a variety of reasons. For some the thrill has gone. but Ozumo may be due for some tranquility and let thrill seekers find an alternative mode of enjoyment. Ozumo survived without Asashoryu before Asashoryu and will after him but the Kyokai must first put its house in order..

Edited February 5, 2010 by Jonosuke

[Kozaru 0]

...one thing I can ask is why are you following Ozumo at all? Its traditions and customs are closely intertwined with Edo culture and religious roots. It isn't really a sport. There are some major religions in the world which do not permit women from becoming priests so why bring that up for Ozumo?

I can't speak for Wanderer, but believe me, I DO bring that up about religions. This just doesn't seem like the place to go on about the inequalities, hypocrisy and bigotry of religion. Irrational sexism is sexism and it belongs dead in the ground. I don't care what anybody's 'beliefs' are. Why would you assume that we don't bring it up elsewhere?

For all those who keep getting upset with the way Ozumo operates can't get it past this particular phenomenon, that it is not simply a sport and if you are looking for it in sumo, you have come to a wrong place and you are more than likely disappointed. Why would the gyoji need to all dressed up if all they need is a t-shirt and white gloves with possibly with a bow tie? Why insists on sekitori to wear a mage? Why a yokozuna needs to do a dohyo iri ceremony at the Meiji Jingu or go praying at the Ise jingu annually?

I don't care where the Yokozuna does a ceremony. I'm in the 'sport' camp, and understand that some of you aren't. I'm no more disappointed with sumo than I am with other pro sports, with their lockouts, strikes, dives, etc.

[wanderer 159]

Purity and beauty of sumo? Everything has a limit in this universe. How pure is it when a youngster gets beaten to death. How dignified are the rikishi when they go drinking in nightclubs on a regular basis. you really believe that these testosterone fueled guys go there only to go home keeping their virginity? How sacred is it when no woman can step on the dohyo? Are these rikishi not born of their mother?

I am not sure what have all those got to do with Asashoryu's intai but one thing I can ask is why are you following Ozumo at all? Its traditions and customs are closely intertwined with Edo culture and religious roots. It isn't really a sport. There are some major religions in the world which do not permit women from becoming priests so why bring that up for Ozumo?

For all those who keep getting upset with the way Ozumo operates can't get it past this particular phenomenon, that it is not simply a sport and if you are looking for it in sumo, you have come to a wrong place and you are more than likely disappointed. Why would the gyoji need to all dressed up if all they need is a t-shirt and white gloves with possibly with a bow tie? Why insists on sekitori to wear a mage? Why a yokozuna needs to do a dohyo iri ceremony at the Meiji Jingu or go praying at the Ise jingu annually?

Anyway regardless of all that Asashoryu did the right thing. It was apparent that he was about to get kicked out, losing all the pension monies and no intai sumo etc but by retiring himself he preserves all that and he will have people talking he could have won 25 more yusho if he did not retire at the age of 29.

All yokozuna will retire before they are totally spent. You won't see Kaio as yokozuna as if Kaio was yokozuna he would have been gone at least three years ago. Asashoryu was mentioning today how much he loved sumo. I don't doubt his sincerity but in the end he chose himself not to stay with Ozumo as he never decided to get a Japanese citizenship. Now I understand there are strong emotional attachment but if he had that, he could have stayed but he knew all that and long ago he chose his destiny and it was not with Ozumo.

Ozumo was here before Asashoryu - actually thriving in the days of Taka-Waka. Ozumo will be here after Asashoryu. Some fans leave Ozumo for a variety of reasons. For some the thrill has gone. but Ozumo may be due for some tranquility and let thrill seekers find an alternative mode of enjoyment. Ozumo survived without Asashoryu before Asashoryu and will after him but the Kyokai must first put its house in order..

I generally agree with your statements, and understand the point you are making. It is nicely put, I admit. My point is that after following sumo for more than 8 years I came to realize that Sumo is riddled with so many dirty things. The face value of tradition, and culture are being used as cover, behind which the sumo establishment operates in a feudalistic mentality. I have no particular feeling for this system, but am sure that younger generation will find it more and more difficult to understand and enjoy. The religious, and ritualistic side of sumo is the most fascinating part for me. But everybody knows that the Sumo guys do lots of lots of things under the name of purity etc. It must be a challenge for someone like Asashoryu to be one of them in real life and put on another face in public, and act like a god. Let's face it. Everything in Sumo world is governed by the oyagatas who have inherited everything from their elders. It has been like this for ages. No body knows what is going on in there.

In contrast, many professional sports have progressed greatly in terms of transparency and accountability. Not because they wanted it, because of pressure from the society. I don't think any one is pressuring Sumo to change its religious heritage. But it is clear to everyone that Sumo has to reform its conduct, and become relevant to modern society. Otherwise, it may have many sponsors, but it may not have enough youngsters to carry it on.

[Kozaru 0]

I don't care where the Yokozuna does a ceremony. I'm in the 'sport' camp.

That seems to be the cause of all your arguements with others here.

There is no sport camp.

Ozumo is not a sport.

No, there most certainly is a sport camp, even if I have to set up the tents and start the campfire myself. But I know there are others. I usually cook dinner or do dishes while they're throwing their salt and stuff, then come back to the TV for the start of the match. I've been doing that for years, and still like watching it plenty. By the way, can we not disagree without it being an 'argument with others'? I respect the reason you like sumo, even if I don't agree. But I get the feeling that there are certain people on this forum (no names) who have no respect for mine, or even consider me inferior to them as a fan.

[Hananotaka 8]

From my perspective, there is really nothing separating the sumo toshiyori from the various wealthy owners that run, say, Japanese baseball and soccer. Nor, for that matter, is the tradition and conservatism of sumo driving away the youth. You think a sumobeya's bad? There's nothing in the sumobeya experience that a young athlete doesn't face in high school clubs, university circles, and even the majors. Corporeal punishment? Check. Made to do drills over and over without water until you drop? Check. Rigid hierarchy? Check. Hell, at least a sumobeya will give you a place to sleep and three square meals a day.

The real problem with sumo has been the economic success of Japan and the increasing of the middle class. The best rikishi have often come from poor or struggling homes -- they are the ones that are hungriest to reach the top, no matter what the obstacle. The middle class, though, doesn't have that hungry drive. And what's more they're more inclined to play soccer or baseball, sports that sustain their competitive drive without the hard punishment of a fighting sport like boxing or sumo.

Who knows, maybe the current economic crisis will actually rejuvenate sumo with a cadre of young, hungry Japanese rikishi who didn't have as many creature comforts as their parents had.

[Kozaru 0]

Nishi, everyone likes to talk about how it isn't a sport, but it sure seems like one. They value winning more than anything. When was the last time you saw a guy promoted to sekitori status for showing respect to his oyakata? Who won last tournament's award in Juryo for 'most respectful rikishi, as voted by his peers'? Who got a raise for their great leg-stomping? When was the last time the kensho was awarded to the rikishi who bowed the deepest? Which makushita gets paid as much as a Sekiwake because of the diligent manner of his practice? How many times has the Emperor's Cup been awarded to a rikishi with fewer wins than another?

In theory, sumo might not be a sport, but when it comes down to it, it's all about winning, baby! That puts it on a par with purse-based sports like tennis or golf.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Kozaru

[Kozaru 0]

You can head in to a Catholic church anytime you want for the free wafers but that doesn't mean it's a bakery.

Damn, I wish they'd bake those things! It would have saved me so much disgust when I was a kid. You also can't do take-out, unlike at a bakery.

[Kozaru 0]

When was the last time you saw a guy promoted to sekitori status for showing respect to his oyakata? Who won last tournament's award in Juryo for 'most respectful rikishi, as voted by his peers'?

When was the last time YOU saw someone win "priest of the year" or get a "best robes in mass" award? Obviously the non-sport element is not competitive. How could you even think that was an arguement?

it's all about winning, baby!

Then why are Kashiwado and Tochinishiki valued way ahead of rikishi that were more successful?

They're valued by who exactly?

Sports pay for winning. The entire structure of sumo, the banzuke, is based on winning. Chores are also part of the structure. The guys who don't win do chores. The most respectful rikishi in a stable still might have to wash the dishes for the guy who is say, Roho. The reward of sumo is a salary, and if they didn't feel that way, there would be less of it and/or less discrepancy between the pay of the wrestlers. Why doesn't kinboshi get a pat on the back instead of a financial bonus? The sport/non-sport is awash in money and financial reward, and all of it for winning. Which I suppose makes it somewhat like the Vatican, so maybe you have a point. Or are they hypocrites in their palaces?

Besides, didn't sumo supposedly used to consist mostly of samurai in need of extra income? It always comes down to income, as pure as people might think it is.

When I was studying kyudo, my instructor told me that the most important thing was the form, not to hit the target. But I don't think anybody has ever won a kyudo meet for their form, so clearly it was not the most important. What they say, and what they do with their actions and their reward methods, are completely different.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Kozaru

[Kozaru 0]

They're valued by who exactly?

People who know what they are talking about when it comes to sumo. ;-)

( You DID ask)

Yes, and how did that translate into career earnings for them? I'm trying to lead you down a path here. They're fondly remembered, perhaps. But the other guys were rewarded more in one major area, the only tangible reward sumo gives. They don't put your portrait up at the Kokugikan for being a good guy.

If it was true about it being a lifestyle, and your (or somebody else's) inevitable comeback that 'money isn't everything', then I'm sure the top rikishi would all be willing to take a pay cut and be rewarded with extra respect. They could then charge 1,000 yen for all tickets and fill the building every day to let people enjoy watching them perform their lifestyle and demonstrate their love of the art.

The beautiful ideal you have of sumo has probably been corrupted by money as much as love of almost everything else in this world has. As I added to my above comment, which you probably didn't read because it was a late edit, I'm told even the old-time sumo rikishi were samurai looking for extra income.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Kozaru

[Kozaru 0]

[When I was studying kyudo, my instructor told me that the most important thing was the form, not to hit the target. But I don't think anybody has ever won a kyudo meet for their form, so clearly it was not the most important.

I guess that sums it up. If winning the competition is the most important element then you are right.

However for myself and many others winning in sumo only has value if it follows from correct form / behaviour etc.

In the long run, history doesn't seem to just judge those that won the most as the greatest. Chiyonofuji has only one yusho less than Taiho but come to Japan, talk to people here, read Japanese books and you'll see that nobody considers them even remotely on the same level.

Yes it's an intangible thing, but what you should realise is that for most people (and more importantly the people who run it) this is what sumo is. I guess it's the same for your kyudo teacher.

No problem if you don't agree with it, but you should realise that this is what it is, even if it doesn't make sense.

Western logic doesn't fit so well with many concepts here. Why should that bother you if you don't live in Japan?

I respect that and see your point. I hope you see mine and that there are 2 sides to the story. Maybe 3 sides. There is the business of sumo, the sport of sumo, and the art of sumo. We all rank them differently, but we are all aware of them.

By the way, I do in fact live in Japan.

[estrangeiro 0]

First, my thanks to the participants of this board. I'm a casual fan that tries to keep up with the current basho broadcast on NHK and drop by these forums on occassion for more perspective and insight, which can be found in abundance. Thank you.

From what I can tell, ozumo is similar to most martial arts. I'm in a martial arts now and have been involved with others at different points throughout my life. There are adherents and fans that believe deeply and put a lot of stock in the spiritual/art side of martial arts. People for whom martial arts is very much of a way of life. And for others it tends to be more a means to an ends, whether that be being a better fighter, getting in better shape, more self confidence, having authority, making friends, making money, fame, etc. All of the professional martial artists that I have talked to claim to 'buy into' the spiritual/art side of their martial art. But as they climb the ladder within their respective martial art realize that it is at heart a business. And because they themselves love their martial art and want to make it their livelihood, find some way to conform to their industry while trying to retain what they love about it. (You could cynically of course argue that the spiritual/art side is attracitive to many of their students or their students' parents, so this is good for business, but I belive the people I've talked to are sincere as well)

The interesting thing about sports is that to some degree or another you can find this phenomenon in all of them, I think. You talk to most coaches and they will preach that their sport is more than just winning and losing, that it is about doing things a certain way, about learning to be sucessful at life. To listen to golfers talk about golf sometimes, you'd think that if everyone could develop a good golf game, then the whole world would be ethical, disciplined and successful. I would argue that many martial arts have a more robust spritual/art side than most sports and that ozumo in particlar may have the most robust of all. But at the end of the day ozumo, like the rest, is first and foremost a business.

You could say that the pressure on Asa that caused him to retire would in the short term hurt the ozumo industry. Yet in the NFL (the most dominant sports league in the US) the comissioner has begun to be quite strict in discipling players for repeated off the field conduct. He started doing this not out of some great sense of morality, but because he was savy enough to realize that off the field incidences were begining to damage the NFL brand. How much more so in spiritually heavy ozumo where there appear to be many adherents/fans/consumers of ozumo who do so not for the sport itself, but for the cultural and artisitic resonance.

I look forward to others' comments.

[Shibata-gumi 1]

I have to kinda side with the sports thing. Granted Im no sumo expert but even talking with my family members (the ones who are Japanese and living in Japan) they mostly see and enjoy sumo because it is a sport. Granted its probably the most (if not only) sport that has its roots based deeply in culutre and religion but you still cant deny its a sport. Why have a banzuke or rankings if it wasnt? Why bother even keeping records? Not to go on a tangent but its kind alike the new "motto" of little league sports here in the states where they dont keep score? Honestly that BS and totally kills compettivie drive but to me it also takes the sports aspect away.

One can argue both sides as sumo has both a spiritual and sports background..but to say one is more so over than the other I think is a pointless argument. Just like denying the existance of the other is pointless too. I do think though that as money gets more invovled (as with most things) corruption will always sprout its ugly head.

But just to reiterate I enjoy sumo and definitly consider it a sport because of the competivness for my favorite and the strongest rikishi to win. I also do enjoy the culutural things that take part during the bashos and acknowledge that they exits. BUT if we were to remove the ceremonial things...I dont know...I still think I would enjoy sumo.

[Asashosakari 19,646]

Why have a banzuke or rankings if it wasnt?

The banzuke already existed back when sumo wasn't meritocratic at all, and rikishi only (with rare exceptions) advanced when somebody with more seniority retired.

[Shibata-gumi 1]

Yea but that was based on senority right? Correct me if Im wrong, but not based on win/loss rankings. So sure maybe keeping a banzuke was used to show respect to the senior players back then but now u have Kaio who is older than EVERYONE only the second highest rank...and some older rikishi lounging around in Maegashira.

[Kozaru 0]

About the money.... some might say that it's not about the money and that these guys really do love their sport/art. The problem I have with that is the absolutely copious amounts of money involved. Asashoryu's total retirement bonus alone is roughly the same as what I can expect to make in my entire life! How much did the guy make over the course of his career, including salary, yusho bonus, kensho, endorsements, etc? What, US$10 million? US$20 million? More? It just seems like such an insanely-high material reward for a job which some might consider the high-priest of a sacred religious practice. Maybe he'd have done it for US$50,000 a year and a free monthly train pass, but we'll never know.

By the way, can we all at least agree that figure skating is not a sport? ;-)

Edited February 5, 2010 by Kozaru

[Asashosakari 19,646]

Yea but that was based on senority right? Correct me if Im wrong, but not based on win/loss rankings. So sure maybe keeping a banzuke was used to show respect to the senior players back then but now u have Kaio who is older than EVERYONE only the second highest rank...and some older rikishi lounging around in Maegashira.

My impression is that prior to the Takasago reforms of the 1880s, the rankings followed somewhat of a "pro-wrestling meritocracy", if pro-wrestling had legit bouts - winning was helpful, but only in the sense that it could help make you a bigger audience draw, which in turn would prompt the tournament organizers to rank you in a more prominent spot. There are some guys who had excellent records (>60% winning frequency), but were never even ranked in sanyaku. In light of the status that Ozumo held back then - more akin to travelling carny shows, I think - my only explanation for that is that they just didn't connect with the audience as well as their ranking superiors did.

So very popular rikishi (whether due to success or sheer charisma), or those with powerful supporters, would still rise to the top somewhat independent of seniority, while the typical rank-and-file top division rikishi might spend his entire career hovering between e.g. M2 and M5 without any big moves from basho to basho, before often dropping sharply towards the bottom of the division in the last few basho before his retirement. (I assume the causality there was "audience lost interest -> rikishi was dropped in the rankings until he got the hint -> rikishi decided to retire".) And of course, the "only two rikishi at every sanyaku rank" rule was still strictly adhered to in those days, so if you had the bad fortune to be the second-most popular rikishi on your side of the banzuke, you simply got stuck at sekiwake until the ozeki above you called it quits. If you were unlucky, your own career ended before his did.

All in all, the banzuke probably served as more of a lineup card/advertisement combination in those days, rather than an actual ranking. That's nowhere more obvious than in the early practice of having kanban ("sign") ozeki, who were put in the nominal top rank strictly to serve as an enticement for local folks to come visit your tournament. I don't think most people could even imagine a modern-day equivalent being put in practice, e.g. something like Kaio as a "guest yokozuna" for every Kyushu basho. Anyway, it's certainly not the case that the existence of the banzuke necessitates sport-like meritocracy.

Late edit: Quote of Shibata-gumi's post added to clarify who and what I was responding to. Darned half-invisible thread...

Edited February 6, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Kozaru 0]

Anyway, it's certainly not the case that the existence of the banzuke necessitates sport-like meritocracy.

Thanks for that, it was interesting. I like it when you do that.

But as they say in Spaceballs, "We're at now now. Everything that's happening now, is happening now." And now the banzuke is purely based on winning, no exceptions (OK, possibly the exception of a dominant wrestler who is too much of a dick to be promoted to Yokozuna).

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Thanks for that, it was interesting. I like it when you do that.

Where do you get the nerve to directly quote my wife?

[Jonosuke 28]

I actually agree Ozumo is about winning, no point in losing but it isn't everything. It is about how you win. As I alluded before, the current form of Ozumo has a lot of elements of the Edo Era and Bushi-do. It means that a winner always shows care and respect to the loser.

All that rituals you see on the dohyo before the actual 7 percent of Ozumo goes on have some elements of that. You will see at the end of Makunouchi dohyo-iri, all rikishi raise their arms to show they have nothing hidden, that their combat is all fair and square. No referee to check if you are hiding something or not, it is all your own volition.

Before you go on to the dohyo, you will wash your mouth with water. It is a ritual you will see in Shinto shrines all over Japan, washing your hands and mouth. All that moves you do before your shikiri are a reflection of respect to your opponent as well as to the sacred ground you stand on. The dohyo is a shrine and you will know that when go to the dohyo matsuri prior to the day 1 of the basho.

And my point is that all these have nothing to do with sport.

[Asashosakari 19,646]

Which is why it's impossible to have a game called "Guess the Banzuke" for example, because everyone would have a perfect score everytime.

I'm going to lobby the Kyokai to replace the banzuke with PORIZ ratings.

[ryafuji 815]

the banzuke is purely based on winning, no exceptions

Which is why it's impossible to have a game called "Guess the Banzuke" for example, because everyone would have a perfect score everytime.

There's obviously a certain amount of luck involved, depending on how well others around you have done, who's retiring etc. But if you don't win more than you lose, you don't go up. There's no exceptions for seniority (except maybe which side a new yokozuna is ranked) or popularity. So I think Kozaru's basic point here stands.

Edited February 6, 2010 by ryafuji

[Kozaru 0]

the banzuke is purely based on winning, no exceptions

Which is why it's impossible to have a game called "Guess the Banzuke" for example, because everyone would have a perfect score everytime.

I know you're half-joking here. Only if it was based on a computer algorithm. You're talking about ranking guys with different amounts of wins and losses at different ranks, and trying to be fair to them relative to the guys around them. Sometimes the slot they 'belong in' is not open. It's tough to do, like making a class schedule for a whole school.

[Kozaru 0]

Thanks for that, it was interesting. I like it when you do that.

Where do you get the nerve to directly quote my wife?

She says it to you, too?!

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

This is, of course, a very subjective topic. I think we could come up with as many answers as we have posters.

I started following sumo because of the sport aspect, but I have been quickly learning that it is so much more. To label it as a sport, a lifestyle, or any one thing is selling it short. It's competition, sport, philosophy, tradition, business, wedgies and ceremony all mashed into one inseparable conglomerate that is ozumo. I think if you get rid of any of those parts, you severely neuter the entire thing and ceases to exist as ozumo. I honestly don't think I'd be nearly as into it if all the salt didn't get thrown.

[Treblemaker 254]

I respect that and see your point. I hope you see mine

I do.

By the way, I do in fact live in Japan.

Sorry about that. I thought you said you didn't but I was confusing you with Treblemaker.

Heh..

Thanks, Nish.. I enjoyed that.

And here I was just enjoying the thread - no comments from me either way - just some excellent views, excellent reading.