Ozumo - sport or not?

[kame 0]

Dozens of sports around the world began as rituals of some religion or other, but they were and still are considered sports. Take ulama, the most widely known Mesoamerican ballgame: in origin 100% religious ritual. Still played competitively today, still somewhat ceremonial. Hell, even in ancient times there was gambling too and not unlike sumo, had its own form of yaocho, and heads rolled (albeit literally).

That's just one example, don't make me hit the internets for the rest... In the hundreds maybe? Fact: you can trace gestures in many sports to religious rituals.

Yes, sumo has stood the test of time (relatively) unchanged and (relatively) more popular than most other such sports. Yes, it's more aesthetically pleasing than human sacrifice. And yes, you can consider some of its converts to be more fervent, specially on this forum, but a sport it remains in the eyes of other people.

I'd pay good money to see the results of a poll: what do the rikishi have to say about this subject? Not the salaried sekitori, but the mute majority. Because I've already heard a few say it's just a sport, another way to make a living. Yes, Nishi, it's a lifestyle too. It can be a lifestyle, a sport, and a job without exploding.

[ryafuji 815]

if you don't win more than you lose, you don't go up.

Really? :-P

That's going to be something about jonokuchi, isn't it? Not even going to bother clicking on it :-P

[Kozaru 0]

When was the last time you saw a guy promoted to sekitori status for showing respect to his oyakata? Who won last tournament's award in Juryo for 'most respectful rikishi, as voted by his peers'?

When was the last time YOU saw someone win "priest of the year" or get a "best robes in mass" award? Obviously the non-sport element is not competitive. How could you even think that was an arguement?

Actually, I was very serious. The National Hockey League in the US and Canada has at least 4 trophies awarded annually for leadership, sportsmanship, community contribution and dedication. The fact that sumo does not have such awards (they don't, do they?) is very interesting, considering all the talk about how important it is.

Lady Byng Memorial Trophy: for the player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability.

Bill Masterson Memorial Trophy: for the player who best exemplifies the qualities of perseverance, sportsmanship, and dedication to ice hockey.

King Clancy Memorial Trophy: for the player who best exemplifies leadership qualities on and off the ice and who has made a significant humanitarian contribution to his community.

Mark Messier Leadership Award: recognizes an individual as a superior leader within their sport, and as a contributing member of society.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Kozaru

[Jonosuke 28]

Yes, sumo has stood the test of time (relatively) unchanged and (relatively) more popular than most other such sports. Yes, it's more aesthetically pleasing than human sacrifice. And yes, you can consider some of its converts to be more fervent, specially on this forum, but a sport it remains in the eyes of other people.

There is nothing wrong with considering Ozumo as a sport. You can all enjoy it as a sport and nothing else. But when once it diverts from your concept of sport (a la NFL, MLB, NHL or FIFA) then someone will undoubtedly start bringing up other sports.

And from there, it goes on with why can't Kyokai do this or be that or whatever and you all show a varying degree of annoyance. I don't think anyone is denying it as a sport. The plain fact is that it is more than a sport. The Kyokai has its mandate and charter. Its primary mandate is to diffuse the culture, customs and traditions of sumo to the general public. It is a foundation governed under the Ministry of Science and Education. All significant rules fall under the charitable contribution by-laws and articles. In fact it is within these by-laws that a yokozuna can be dismissed by the directors.

It isn't simply about its origin or roots but the practice. When one joins Ozumo as a recruit you become the member, initially as a trainee status. It is like joining a monastery. You will be working under an oyakata, sort of like an abbot. You all live under one roof, more likely in one room. It is a communal living, sharing food, bath and space as well as duty. You live under more or less strict rule almost every day of the year. You have no freedom generally to move to another group. Your promotion is strictly based on your ability and you are required to participate in a set number of hours practicing your art. You don't get paid until you get to a certain level of expertize. You are free to leave but you are not allowed to return.

I am sure for those who visited a keiko at a heya will know there are religious symbols everywhere in the heya from an altar to a Shinto artifacts that decorate the training dohyo. Every heya will observe the ritual of it every day after training sessions.

All these and more are observed every day in Ozumo. In my view the thread premise is all wrong. It isn't a question about whether it is a sport as it is a sport but the sport part of it is only a part and unless we try to see the whole, we will never understand the true nature of Ozumo.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Jonosuke

[Manekineko 200]

I thought it was agreed a few years ago that moderators would put their own name as the thread starter when they split them.

I don't know how to do that... I could add a header to the first post, though.

Better yet, changed the subtitle.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Manekineko

[ilovesumo 12]

depends on the amount of yao.......involved? :-)

I won't consider Proresu a sport IMHO....

Well, there is no professional sport that does occupy the whole person as much as Sumo maybe, but each professional sport is a lifestyles well.........

Edited February 6, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Like any other sport, it depends how big a fan you are. If you are a die hard fan of sumo ( 2 hours a day, deep interest, dream you are a rikishi every night), you want it to be done "right" - rituals, behavior, you know.. A casual fan couldn't be bothered-he cares who wins and wants excitement-that's why henka for instance turns him off as it robs him of the excitement. A die hard fan may hate henka for other reasons-see above. What's my point..yees..Take soccer-a goal scored with a hand can cause a serious fan to want to kill, while a casual fan who watches now and then can't see what's the big deal-ref missed it, bad luck- GOOOOAAAAL- same goes for a player getting injured and the opposing team kicking the ball out of play instead of capitalizing on it- a casual may find this "sportsmanship" amusing. My point? Getting there... Every sport has its henka or foul or unforgivable move or rabbit punch off and on the field which is unforgiven by the more involved fan while the guy there for the ride can't see the problem.

I hope I am clear.

[Asashosakari 19,646]

I suspect a least one person on this thread will take major exception to just having been called a casual fan...time to get the popcorn.

[Shibata-gumi 1]

Im just throwing it in because we are talking about fans (but its off topic) puroresu is a sport. The things those guys do (granted it fake) takes a HELL of a lot of athletisicm (of course when done right). Anyway rant done...now returning you to your scheduled program already in progress.

[Coo-cook 0]

Like any other sport, it depends how big a fan you are. If you are a die hard fan of sumo ( 2 hours a day, deep interest, dream you are a rikishi every night), you want it to be done "right" - rituals, behavior, you know.. A casual fan couldn't be bothered-he cares who wins and wants excitement-that's why henka for instance turns him off as it robs him of the excitement. A die hard fan may hate henka for other reasons-see above. What's my point..yees..Take soccer-a goal scored with a hand can cause a serious fan to want to kill, while a casual fan who watches now and then can't see what's the big deal-ref missed it, bad luck- GOOOOAAAAL- same goes for a player getting injured and the opposing team kicking the ball out of play instead of capitalizing on it- a casual may find this "sportsmanship" amusing. My point? Getting there... Every sport has its henka or foul or unforgivable move or rabbit punch off and on the field which is unforgiven by the more involved fan while the guy there for the ride can't see the problem.

I hope I am clear.

Seems very clear to me, Kintamayama.

By the way, is there any big difference between fan and fanaticism?...probably not. (In either case you are not clear headed, he-he.)

[ilovesumo 12]

Im just throwing it in because we are talking about fans (but its off topic) puroresu is a sport. The things those guys do (granted it fake) takes a HELL of a lot of athletisicm (of course when done right). Anyway rant done...now returning you to your scheduled program already in progress.

I don't deny the athletisicm,

but sport needs competition IMHO. That's why chess is one.

[wanderer 159]

I think this discussion is evolving more into cultural one.

Being Mongolian, I have better understanding of Sumo's underlying culture and tradition than most of the westerners. To some extent, we have pretty much everything same going on in our own Sumo. Controversies, cultural crisis, retirement drama, increasing irrelevance to today's life etc. I understand what is the problem with Sumo, because we have a similar problem.

Sumo, as Mongolian wrestling, is so completely intertwined with its local culture. This guarantees occurrence of periodic crisis due to the changes in local culture. It survives if it can change accordingly, vanishes all together if can not. Someone go and find true Samurais today, and their counterpart Ninjas. They have probably been idolized by kids back then and respected by the villagers. But they have gone as a society. Sumo survived thus far because it has selling point as a sport, and successful commercialization. Today it has sponsor networks, fan clubs, and its own revenues.

But let's face it. Vast majority of the sponsors come from the post war era people, who dearly wanted to see at least a glimmer of pride in this war ruined nation. What will happen 20-30 years from now? Will new generation of Japanese CEOs throw sponsorship money to such obscure establishment? They could well be asking tough questions from the JSA, often heard in todays corporate world regarding accountability, public relations, damage control, transparency, etc. On top of it, they could be asking the value it brings to the society through their sponsorship. Unfortunately, Sumo is not the only sport in Japan. There are hugely commercial sports thriving in Japan today, and it will only become tougher for Sumo to survive.

So, Sumo needs to clean its kitchen, open to the public and display its magnificent cultural heritage in full swing. The glaring example is Judo establishment. I have no comment on Judo, because everybody knows what Judo is and how successful it is doing today.

Those who persist about purity, and sacredness of Sumo should watch the Hollywood movie "The Last Samurai". I like the way of bushido. But it is impossible to be one today.

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

Im just throwing it in because we are talking about fans (but its off topic) puroresu is a sport. The things those guys do (granted it fake) takes a HELL of a lot of athletisicm (of course when done right). Anyway rant done...now returning you to your scheduled program already in progress.

I don't deny the athletisicm,

but sport needs competition IMHO. That's why chess is one.

Being a rather large fan of Puroresu, I agree with ilovesumo. Puro is more an athletic display. The fact that is isn't a sport shouldn't diminish it in the eyes of any fan.

So, Sumo needs to clean its kitchen, open to the public and display its magnificent cultural heritage in full swing. The glaring example is Judo establishment. I have no comment on Judo, because everybody knows what Judo is and how successful it is doing today.

Aren't there areas in which sumo could "modernize" itself yet still retain it's traditions? Like on the business side of things or making some changes to make it more appealing to potential Shindeshi? I tend to agree with the philosophy of that which doesn't bend, breaks. Where could sumo bend without losing what it is?

Edited February 6, 2010 by KcKelley

[Jakusotsu 6,045]

Sumo, as Mongolian wrestling, is so completely intertwined with its local culture.

Which makes me wonder, have there ever been any foreigners in Mongolian wrestling?

(sorry for going off topic, but I'm curious)

[wanderer 159]

Sumo, as Mongolian wrestling, is so completely intertwined with its local culture.

Which makes me wonder, have there ever been any foreigners in Mongolian wrestling?

(sorry for going off topic, but I'm curious)

This is very good question. Many Mongolians look at themselves critically today and say the following: Come on, what if some Japanese come to our wrestling, take the championship, and show disrespect? We could have not stand that!

Yes, there are many who just blatantly refuse foreigners in Mongolian wrestling. There were some occasions in the past. One Russian did pretty well in Naadam back in sixties, threatening to reach the important 5th round relying on his skills in Sambo. Mongolians pretty much conspired against him, sending a very high ranking wrestler for his 4th round. The bout was a close one. According to my father, the Russian had actually defeated him. However, judges decided the other way around.

Yes, Mongolians are no better than Japanese in this regard. Many Mongolians today say that it is enough for Asashoryu, and calling him back before any more damage is done. Fortunately, there are many other Mongolians who have good standing in Sumo. Therefore, Asa is taken as an example of personality, rather than national embarrassment.

Equally is true about our national wrestling. It is in crisis today. There are allegations about rampant bout fixing, wrestler misconduct, and ever decreasing public interest. Provincial level competitions are largely ceremonial, having no real competition. There was a big scandal when one of the two reigning new Yokozuna kicked the other Yokozuna in his stomach in front of thousands of spectators, which was broadcast live on national television. Yet, the incident ended when the bad guy apologized. There was one high ranking wrestler who beat someone in nightclub, yet he was allowed to compete in Naadam just weeks later.

So, happenings in Sumo are not new to us Mongolians. Therefore, we feel the need for change so clearly.

[Shibata-gumi 1]

touche ilovesumo...u bring up a very good point.

[Treblemaker 254]

After reading all of the posts - and nobody's wrong here - I think sumo, like art, is what you see in it. Sport, religion, a lesson in ethics, doesn't matter.

What it really is, is two chubby guys going honorably at it in a small, clay circle. To that, attach whatever significant overlay that you need.

[Orion 431]

Wanderer, I entirely agree with your points about Mongolian wrestling (which add a lot more information to the small amount I already knew from the outside. I have one small point to make about Japanese sponsors. You said:

But let's face it. Vast majority of the sponsors come from the post war era people, who dearly wanted to see at least a glimmer of pride in this war ruined nation.

That time was 60 or more years ago. The company presidents who are the big sponsors now are the sons and grandsons of that generation (though from personal experience of Japan going back some 40 years, I would say that that attitude lasted for at least a generation too long).

Orion

[Kozaru 0]

Well, there is no professional sport that does occupy the whole person as much as Sumo maybe, but each professional sport is a lifestyles well.........

I agree with that!

Take soccer-a goal scored with a hand can cause a serious fan to want to kill, while a casual fan who watches now and then can't see what's the big deal-ref missed it, bad luck....

So a serious fan is one who wants to kill? I figured a serious fan might understand that it's a sport.

I suspect a least one person on this thread will take major exception to just having been called a casual fan...time to get the popcorn.

Who is it?! Can I get some popcorn too? Oh.......

Im just throwing it in because we are talking about fans (but its off topic) puroresu is a sport. The things those guys do (granted it fake) takes a HELL of a lot of athletisicm (of course when done right). Anyway rant done...now returning you to your scheduled program already in progress.

What?! No! Sports have competition! Those guys (and gals) are actors, stuntmen.

...but sport needs competition IMHO. That's why chess is one.

What?! No! Sports have to be athletic!

For the less-informed or more-misguided of you, here is the perfect definition of sport: an athletic competition that has no points for style. Note that this excludes figure skating, half-pipe snowboarding, and pretty much half the events at the Olympics. As soon as you have points for style, you become an art. Real sports don't get judged on the competitors' costumes, how well the accompanying music matches their dance steps, or how cool something looked. Can you imagine a homerun being worth more if you smile pretty while you're hitting it?

Edited February 7, 2010 by Kozaru

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Take soccer-a goal scored with a hand can cause a serious fan to want to kill, while a casual fan who watches now and then can't see what's the big deal-ref missed it, bad luck....

So a serious fan is one who wants to kill? I figured a serious fan might understand that it's a sport.

I knew you wouldnt understand, honest. I meant a fanatic fan, a seriously devoted fan, ask those that want Henry dead, they may speak your language better than it.

But I feel you already knowed that..

[Kozaru 0]

Take soccer-a goal scored with a hand can cause a serious fan to want to kill, while a casual fan who watches now and then can't see what's the big deal-ref missed it, bad luck....

So a serious fan is one who wants to kill? I figured a serious fan might understand that it's a sport.

I knew you wouldnt understand, honest. I meant a fanatic fan, a seriously devoted fan, ask those that want Henry dead, they may speak your language better than it.

But I feel you already knowed that..

It's funny, because while I'm a big sumo fan, I fit into your description of a casual sumo fan. And while I understand the sportsmanship you described in your soccer example (qualifying me as a real fan, not finding the sportsmanship amusing), I don't watch soccer at all. So I can only conclude that your examples were over-generalisations.

But this is why I wrote in a previous post that I think some people on the board consider me an 'inferior fan' (or second-rate) compared to them. Not that I think it's something to be super-proud of to be a hardcore fan of a sport. Some people define themselves in that way, affiliating their entire life with one team (reaching even into funerals and gravestones), and I find that so sad that people have nothing better to live for.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Kozaru

[Kozaru 0]

I'd like somebody to take a stab at my question. Why is it that the National Hockey League has no less than 4 annual trophies for leadership and human qualities, but sumo, despite all its talk and a well-defined system of material reward and recognition, has none? And why shouldn't they? What's wrong with a new award(s) for such qualities?

I'm also half-expecting somebody to tell me that they do have such awards, and I'm just not aware of them.

[Kintamayama 45,495]

But this is why I wrote in a previous post that I think some people on the board consider me an 'inferior fan' (or second-rate) compared to them. Not that I think it's something to be super-proud of to be a hardcore fan of a sport. Some people define themselves in that way, affiliating their entire life with one team (reaching even into funerals and gravestones), and I find that so sad that people have nothing better to live for.

I admit I always considered you an inferior to super duper inferior fan and I think you should go back to your K1 or MM2 or whatever place you came from.

Now, if I could only remember who you actually are.. Now, to the point-I am a hardcore fan, but do not fellate my entire life with one team, and I actually do not have nothing better to live for, so I guess I am der hardcore fan after all..

What?

[Kozaru 0]

But this is why I wrote in a previous post that I think some people on the board consider me an 'inferior fan' (or second-rate) compared to them. Not that I think it's something to be super-proud of to be a hardcore fan of a sport. Some people define themselves in that way, affiliating their entire life with one team (reaching even into funerals and gravestones), and I find that so sad that people have nothing better to live for.

I admit I always considered you an inferior to super duper inferior fan and I think you should go back to your K1 or MM2 or whatever place you came from.

Now, if I could only remember who you actually are.. Now, to the point-I am a hardcore fan, but do not fellate my entire life with one team, and I actually do not have nothing better to live for, so I guess I am der hardcore fan after all..

What?

You're attempting to put fans into 2 categories based on a couple of examples. I know several BIG sumo fans, big enough to create websites and forums on the topic, who hate the henka and all non-forward-moving sumo. By your definition, they are casual. I hate henka, yes because it robs me as a paying fan of excitement, but don't mind backward-moving sumo.

My comment about the sports fans and death was NOT directed at you or anybody else on this board. It was an observation about sports in the world which I thought we'd all agree with. As sumo fans, we have no 'team'. That should have been obvious. And if you are not one who would write a team's name on your tombstone, then it should have been obvious that I wasn't talking about you.

I HATE K-1, boxing, MMA, UFC, and all other sports in which the object is to beat a guy unconscious or into surrender. I HATE hockey fights. How many serious over-generalisations are you willing to make about me and people like me (or more accurately, people not like you)? And you're telling me to leave? Is this for real? Thanks for your respect for my opinion and what attracts me to sumo. I appreciate it. Super-duper inferior. Ha! Point proven.

Note my earlier post in which Nishi and I told each other that we respect each other's reasons for liking sumo.

Why does it matter who I am? I don't know who you are. Did I miss the orientation party?

Asashosakari must be buttering the popcorn now. I wouldn't have reacted so harshly if you hadn't told me to leave. There seems to be a lot of that going around. Too bad. I also had a feeling that this thread could not continue in the civil manner that Nishi and I began it in, because of the militant wing of Sumo Forum.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Kozaru

[Asashosakari 19,646]

One of those times where I can't resist breaking my own policies...

But this is why I wrote in a previous post that I think some people on the board consider me an 'inferior fan' (or second-rate) compared to them. Not that I think it's something to be super-proud of to be a hardcore fan of a sport. Some people define themselves in that way, affiliating their entire life with one team (reaching even into funerals and gravestones), and I find that so sad that people have nothing better to live for.

That's coming from the guy who writes hundreds upon hundreds of posts complaining that Ozumo doesn't work the way he wants it to work and who, despite being a self-described free thinker, is so obviously proud of the fact that he can't be bothered to make an effort to understand why things are the way they are? That's rich. You're coming across as more obsessed that everybody else here, except you're not even obsessed with sumo, just with the irrefutability of your own opinions. I don't think it even is about sumo for you anymore. As I've commented before, if Ozumo ever did change in the ways you want it to, you'd probably just move your activist efforts to some other aspect of Japan's culture. (Whoops, forgot sumo's only a sport, my mistake.)

If you and the SML's Scott Kahn ever met, the universe might very well collapse into a misguided criticism singularity. Perhaps not so coincidentally, his very similar crusade is also very much Asashoryu-driven.