Ozumo - sport or not?

[Kintamayama 45,495]

You're attempting to put fans into 2 categories based on a couple of examples. I know several BIG sumo fans, big enough to create websites and forums on the topic, who hate the henka and all non-forward-moving sumo. By your definition, they are casual. I hate henka, yes because it robs me as a paying fan of excitement, but don't mind backward-moving sumo.

I am attempting nothing. I am voicing my opinion and am aware that it was a gross simplification, but I think you understood that.

My comment about the sports fans and death was NOT directed at you or anybody else on this board. It was an observation about sports in the world which I thought we'd all agree with. As sumo fans, we have no 'team'. That should have been obvious. And if you are not one who would write a team's name on your tombstone, then it should have been obvious that I wasn't talking about you.

I didn't think you were, i was just oversimplifying again.

I HATE K-1, boxing, MMA, UFC, and all other sports in which the object is to beat a guy unconscious or into surrender. I HATE hockey fights. How many serious over-generalisations are you willing to make about me and people like me (or more accurately, people not like you)? And you're telling me to leave? Is this for real? Thanks for your respect for my opinion and what attracts me to sumo. I appreciate it. Super-duper inferior. Ha! Point proven.

Not over-generalization-over simplifying, again. I know exactly who you are. You invented that game, and I read all your posts. I didn't tell you to leave. Far from it.

Note my earlier post in which Nishi and I told each other that we respect each the other's reasons for liking sumo.

Nishi is a girl.

Why does it matter who I am? I don't know who you are. Did I miss the orientation party?

You missed a lot more than the orientation party, my friend.

Asashosakari must be buttering the popcorn now. I wouldn't have reacted so harshly if you hadn't told me to leave. There seems to be a lot of that going around. Too bad. I also had a feeling that this thread could not continue in the civil manner that Nishi and I began it in, because of the militant wing of Sumo Forum.

I admit I am from the militant wing of the Sumo forum. I'll give you that. I didn't tell you to leave. I will leave instead.

Goodbye.

[Kozaru 0]

Holy crap. I have a policy to try to be civil to everybody here, so rather than respond to that last post (which could likely not be done in a civil manner), or defend my right to discuss sumo here, I'll vacate the thread. I will not be drawn into telling anybody off, like the militant wing.

I hope that others will respect my right to like sumo for the reasons that I do and my right to not agree with their opinion. My opinions on what I like and don't like, are in fact irrefutable, by definition.

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Holy crap.

You wrote crap. Not civilized.

[Jonosuke 28]

I'd like somebody to take a stab at my question. Why is it that the National Hockey League has no less than 4 annual trophies for leadership and human qualities, but sumo, despite all its talk and a well-defined system of material reward and recognition, has none? And why shouldn't they? What's wrong with a new award(s) for such qualities?

I'm also half-expecting somebody to tell me that they do have such awards, and I'm just not aware of them.

I am not sure why you want to keep bringing up another sport into this discussion as I have explicitly implied that it would not make sense to do so and that would cause anyone to have a difficulty understanding what Ozumo is about.

However if you insist, NHL is a sport one can beat up another player and may only receive as little as 2 minutes or 5 minutes in a penalty box. Of course when they go at it, they are expected to take their gloves off while in Ozumo if you hit another rikishi with your fist, you will get penalized and lose a bout. In NHL getting involved in fighting will not lose a game but in Ozumo you lose a bout. And you tell us this is a sport with Lady Byng.

But I know whatever I just wrote is not a fair comparison. Does it speak about a virtue of ice hockey? Hardly. I live in a place where ice hockey has its hall of fame and its ultimate trophy considered to be the holy grail by many of the denizens. Even in the middle of summer people talk about their beloved Leafs. But I won't attempt to compare hockey to sumo.

I pointed out there is nothing wrong with enjoying Ozumo as a sport but trying to understand Ozumo solely from a sport perspective will not tell the whole story. You can experience the passion but not its heart.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Jonosuke

[Treblemaker 254]

Take soccer-a goal scored with a hand can cause a serious fan to want to kill, while a casual fan who watches now and then can't see what's the big deal-ref missed it, bad luck....

So a serious fan is one who wants to kill? I figured a serious fan might understand that it's a sport.

Sigh. Not too many years ago a Columbian Soccer Team member was actually shot to death days after the team lost an important game due to him accidentally "own goal-ing".

And if not yet done so, I suggest people might read "Soccer Tribe" by Desmond Morris.

Yes, there are people for whom a team, a sport (or even a forum) are their sole "raisin d'etre".

It's easy to tell these people to "get a life"... but unfortunately, that is their life... FWIW...

[Asashosakari 19,646]

To totally detour for a moment, I'm left to wonder again why people who don't care about the non-sport aspects of Ozumo don't just develop an interest in amateur sumo, especially people living in Japan. From what I can tell there are dozens of tournaments every year for all age groups, from small city tourneys all the way to the university and industrial circuits. No, the skills of even the best collegiate or corporate athletes aren't anywhere near makuuchi level (though juryo probably isn't that far off), but in turn those guys are a) not motivated merely by prolonging their sumo livelihood, and b) nearly every bout will be high-intensity because the tournaments are predominantly single-elimination style. Considering everyone always complains how lackluster many sekitori look on the dohyo, one would think that to be a big selling point of the ama version.

If the Kyokai is as screwed-up and reactionary and ultimately doomed as many insist it is, your best bet to strengthen the impact of sumo as a sport (and nothing but a sport) ought to be withdrawing your patronage from Ozumo and supporting the guys who already align with your views. They'll surely appreciate the support, too, and who knows, if you can convince enough people of the superiority of sumo freed of its traditionalist shackles, a rival "sumo as sport only" organization is only a matter of time; the market will take care of that. The corporate sumo leagues already exist, they're just not visible enough for somebody to turn them into an actual commercial venture...yet. (Heck, the WSL tried to do pretty much that in the US. It didn't work, but then the US doesn't have the fertile ground for such an idea that Japan could surely provide.) Even the issue of not enough foreign participation could be addressed in a rival framework. Think outside the box - don't try to put a square peg through a round hole.

[Chiyozakura 148]

After reading all of the posts - and nobody's wrong here - I think sumo, like art, is what you see in it. Sport, religion, a lesson in ethics, doesn't matter.

You are basically right, but by just seeing parts of it you will make false judgements. That is the reason why some people here claim that the NSK are racist and that Asashoryu has most been treated badly during his career. Looking at sumo as a whole and taking the cultural dimension into consideration will change the picture.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

One thing for me that separates Ozumo from sports is the shoubu format of the bouts. One chance - win or don't. No points, no rounds, do or die.

[Gusoyama 104]

I'd like somebody to take a stab at my question. Why is it that the National Hockey League has no less than 4 annual trophies for leadership and human qualities

Well, its all about history and tradition. Hockey was developed in the early part of the 20th century in Canada, and as such, there was a high value placed on gentlemanly acts and sportsmanship, especially in a violent game such as hockey. Sumo was developed in the edo period, where the warrior code, shin gi tai, and religious traditions were of high value.

I HATE hockey fights.

Which is ironic, because you'd have the same argument over at a hockey forum about fighting that you're having here about sumo being a sport. Hardcore hockey fans(such as myself), believe that fighting does a lot to keep the game safe. Some traditions are there for a reason.

[Jakusotsu 6,045]

Hardcore hockey fans(such as myself), believe that fighting does a lot to keep the game safe.

Now that's interesting! I know zilch about hockey, but condoning brawls to keep worse things from happening seems kinda amusing.

[madorosumaru 7]

Hardcore hockey fans(such as myself), believe that fighting does a lot to keep the game safe.

Now that's interesting! I know zilch about hockey, but condoning brawls to keep worse things from happening seems kinda amusing.

Hockey aficionados cite two main reasons for allowing "fighting." The first is that the presence of an enforcer "discourages" cheap shots by opponents. In a fast-paced, physical game played with a potentially lethal stick, a malicious check or a "careless" stick can end a player's career. Some "dirty" players are known to intentionally slash the stick at knees, jab it into opponents' kidney area and indulge in other dastardly deeds. Dave Semenko, whose hockey skills were negligible, was a regular on the ice as Wayne Gretzky's personal bodyguard. Without him, "The Great One" could very well have ended up as "The Lame One." Anyone that would even give Wayne an untoward look would get mercilessly pummeled by "Cementhead." For his valuable role, Semenko was affectionately nicknamed "The Policeman" by the grateful Edmonton fans.

The other reason is that in an intense game like hockey, the tension is always at a breaking point. Throughout history in all cultures, contending sides have used "designated fighters." In fact, that was one of the original purposes of sumo itself. Designated fighters, called "Enforcers" in NHL, step up for their teams to face off against each other so that more skilled and valuable players would not have to risk their physical well-being. Often, enough steam is let out with the big fight between the two enforcers. After their Achilles-Hector confrontation that results in "Two-minutes for roughing, five-minutes for fighting, 20-minutes for misconduct and game misconduct," the two bad boys would leave the ice and let the other guys play with less chance for further incidents. Semenko, Tiger Williams and Dave Schultz will forever be remembered by hockey fans for their special role in the game.

[Jakusotsu 6,045]

>:-(

Still amusing, but plausible now.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Some claim the physicality of the game of hockey has roots in lacrosse...

Lacrosse originated with the Native American nations of the United States and Canada, mainly among the Huron and Iroquois Tribes. In many Native American societies/tribes, the ball sport was often part of religious ritual, played to resolve conflicts, heal the sick, develop strong, virile men and prepare for war. Legend tells of games with more than 100 players from different tribes taking turns to play.It could be played on a field many miles in length and width; sometimes the game could last for days. Early lacrosse balls were made of deerskin, clay, stone, and sometimes wood. Lacrosse played a significant role in the community and religious life of tribes across the continent for many years. Early lacrosse was characterized by deep spiritual involvement, befitting the spirit of combat in which it was undertaken. Those who took part did so in the role of warriors, with the goal of bringing glory and honor to themselves and their tribes. The game was said to be played "for the Creator" or was referred to as "The Creator's Game".

Lacrosse, one of the oldest team sports in the Americas, may have developed as early as the 12th century, but since then has undergone many modifications. In the traditional Native American version, each team consisted of about 100 to 1,000 men on a field that stretched from about 500 yards to a couple of miles long. These lacrosse games lasted from sunup to sundown for two to three days straight. These games were played as part of ceremonial ritual to give thanks to the Creator.

[Asojima 2,874]

To follow through on Mado-zeki's comments, the son of my ex-boss was his lacrosse team's enforcer. He only played when his coach wanted someone taken out of the game!

[Hananotaka 8]

One thing that must be considered regarding the direction sumo takes in the future is how glutted the Japanese sports scene is. Baseball. Soccer. Boxing. MMA. Volleyball. Judo. The Olympics. If sumo were to "reform" and "modernize", it would basically be competing with a whole other sports, most of which already have an established fanbase to build on. In reforming and modernizing, though, sumo would weaken the fanbase it already has.

The best way to go, and this is obviously understood by the powers that be, is to emphasize that which makes sumo unique, what makes it different from all the other sports out there. And that is the connection to Japanese tradition and ritual. Rather than modernize, probably the best thing to do is go even further into tradition and conservatism. This, to be certain, will not lead to sumo being the #1 sport in Japan. What it will do is solidify sumo's niche. And as a niche it can survive quite well, buoyed by occasional booms like the Waka-Taka period. Compare, for example, Nihon Buyo, Noh, Kabuki, and Rakugo, traditional Japanese forms of entertainment that utilize their niche to survive while conceding most of the market to the Japanese movie and television industry, and Hollywood imports.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Hananotaka

[Nicodojo 0]

This is a very interesting topic and I would like to add my personal view about sumo.

Obviously, sumo is a sport. Sumo wrestlers are athletes who pratice and train to win in their sport.

Ozumo is a professional sport, attracts sponsors, rikishis make fortunes, media... just like any other professional sport.

HOWEVER, and this is where most foreigners are mistaken, ozumo is MORE than a sport.

It is easy to compare rikishis to any other profressional athletes but people need to understand that there is a difference which is hard to explain as a foreigner.

Asashoryu's behaviour wasn't that terrible for me. He was an amazing athlete, good in any sport (have anybody seen him playing basketball??) and he acted as a professional athlete, which was not enough according to the sumo kyokai criteriae.

The shinto ritual, the outfit, the chonmage, the referee... is obviously the mark of the "more-than-a-sport" sport.

I am a fan of the sport, the way they train and eat and get conditionned for their fight, and the religion and ritual part just add something more to ozumo which make it a fascinating sport.

[ilovesumo 12]

I see a wave. Sumo was a show for the shinto-goods to provide a good harvest. That split into pure rite and theater-like entertainment when Sumo became professional during Edo-time. (there had been a kind of Sumo-profession before, as we know, but those guys had been more of a kind of warriors). Sumo was a show. Bit later, around Meiji, things changed. Japan wanted to be as "cultivated" as the west, so during Meiji, Sumo looked old-fashioned and could have easily been abolished, but Meiji-tennou himself practised Sumo as a sport (amateur-Sumo looks more "sportive" then Pro, without the rites etc...-cause it's not meant to be a show-act)...Sumo shifted to "more a sport then a show". All that Yaocho-stuff, that means "back to the roots of entertainment" to me. Cause of the show, the rites etc. provide, and the competition with no-rites western sports, I see Sumo drifting back to the entertainment again. Like in a Japanese quizz show- who cares who wins? There have to be some big guys who make the news and bring attention to it. Split attention means less attraction. Too many names for those spectators who do not follow on a regular basis.

Some people here feel like me - the real "sport" happens during thraining and in the lower divisions. Makuuchi is a show. I must admit I am not into the show but into the development of the youngsters. Following those through their carreres is the great thing.

Sumo has to stay traditional, cause of it's character as a symbol of Japaneseness. Sure, this has to be saved as cultural good.

In Japan, as in many countries, a discussion goes on about national identity. Sumo is old national identity, loosing it's importance as the young generation want's to be international, want's to be free. Just look at the fashion trends. That screams "I wanna be an individual" - not "just" a member of the group anymore. Sumo has not too much individuality, just look at how the boys live.

No idea how the future will be. Actually, I think foreigners in Sumo are a good thing - to open it up to the world - as the society. But now that the interest in Japan is so low......oh dear.

So to me, sumo is a life-style, that does not fit into the young reality anymore.

[Pippooshu 1]

I think this isn't a sport only. It's a little shintoist world, like a traditional box for japanese culture' mix. It contains religiouses goods, traditional cerimony, ancient folkloristic dresses (for the Gyoji) and rites and, obviously, sport also. If you cut the rites and leave alone the sport, this isn't sumo...this is a wrestling also.

But we know...this is sumo...