Game Over- no more foreign rikishi loopholes

[Fay 1,677]

To be or to become japanese doesn't make any rikishi more committed to Sumo.

Sorry but you are wrong.

If you have to give up your own nationality to do sumo then obviously those that are willing to do so are more committed than those that are not.

It could also mean they don't care for what is written on their passport and change nationality to earn more money than anywhere else country.

I really don't know why I even think about it ...

I wonder how you will select all the japanese rikishi who are not not committed to Sumo the way you like it.

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Why would he? Assuming my proposal was adopted people would have time to prepare before entering sumo. Add in a year in Joe's sumo school and two more to sekitorihood and you are most of the way there. With fluency, added to joining an organisation that required citizenship I'm sure the process could be speeded up. Also as long as the application ball was rolling you could also give the rikishi a years grace. Might need that anyway to see if they can last at juryo and above.

Ok, so you'll have them become sekitori first and then enforce citizenship, which might take a while. But what if the subject declines? Forced intai? I can already hear the roars of outrage all around the globe...

Does your proposal include the recent edict which started this discussion, i.e. just one foreigner per heya regardless of citizenship? I guess so, unless you want to recruit even more foreigners.

[Sasanishiki 57]

[*]The newest proposal is illegal

Can you elaborate? It may seem straightforward to you, but I don't understand this part.

• The old rule made a distinction between Japanese and non Japanese. That's fine as the constitution only covers citizens when it comes to equality.
  
• To illustrate the above, you can put up a sign saying "No Irish allowed" on your business in Japan if you want. You wouldn't be breaking any law.
  
• The new rule makes a distinction between Japanese citizens from birth and those who aquired the citizenship later.
  
• Although the rule doesn't affect the citizens directly it effectively creates different classes of citizen which is not allowed under Japanese law
  
• If a potential recruit may not join Heya "A" as it has an ex-foreigner (even though it now contains only Japanese citizens) but the recruit is free to join Heya "B" as it has only Japanese born citizens then that makes a distinction between Japanese born citizens and those with acquired citizenship.
  

I am glad that you have explained this clearly because this avoids others jumping on the "illegal" bandwagon without looking at the wording of the constitution closely. I agree with what you say, Nish, but I just want to make this crystal clear for others and so have used your post below to demonstrate the issue at hand:

And how about a 26 year old Japanese citizen wanting to join sumo? Can't he sue on the basis of discrimination as well?

The short answer is he probably could. I can't say whether he would win or not but it's very unlikely to be challenged, and even if someone were to take the case to court it would take so long to go through the appeals process that they would be too old anyway by the time it was finished.

Don't mix up the law with the reality on the ground.

I'm not saying the new change is right or wrong. I'm looking at it in strictly legal terms.

In legal terms, the naturalised rikishi is the one with the case against the Kyokai. He could argue, as you've said in your bullet point above, that the Kyokai was treating him differently to other citizens by considering his ancestry and place of birth in excluding another through application of this rule/guideline/agreement. However, this naturalised rikishi is already on the 'inside' and would not rock the boat in this way except (probably) for a close relative or friend who wanted to join ozumo. If this was not the case, why would he sue the institution in which he was ensconced? You've explained this by saying don't mix the law and reality on the ground.

The person actually being discriminated against is the foreign-born potential recruit who is not allowed in to the heya. However, like you say, that discrimination is not illegal, and so the would-be recruit has no recourse to legal action in Japan.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

(And Pulease, people, let us stay right away from the self-apppointed Crusader of the Onsens. This man has his own path to follow and he will latch onto any thread that appears to feed fuel into his blog. [And, let's not forget, that, after he had made his first big "discrimination" point about taking his two daughters to an onsen in Hokkaido that had suffered considearable losses from the bad behavior of sailors off Russian ships), and the one who looked Japanese was allowed in but the one who looked 'foreign' was excluded -- after all this he divorced his long-suffering Japanese wife; the last time I heard, his still young daughters were very troubled by papa's disappearance.]

Things are not always as they appear, across the Pacific.

Let's stick to sumo.

It'd be a lot easier to take your last line seriously if you hadn't included the preceding paragraph, which is inaccurate from what I understand (unless you have some evidence to refute his claim that his ex-wife moved from Japan to the US with their daughters and subsequently refused further contact). You did bring it up, after all. (Shaking head...)

[Orion 431]

It'd be a lot easier to take your last line seriously if you hadn't included the preceding paragraph, which is inaccurate from what I understand (unless you have some evidence to refute his claim that his ex-wife moved from Japan to the US with their daughters and subsequently refused further contact). You did bring it up, after all. (Shaking head...)

This is Aldwinkle we're talking about, right? Admittedly I haven't followed his fortunes for some years, but you seem to be talking about a completely different family. In fact, half the messages on this thread seem to be from people who are ignoring the facts and are talking to themselves. I think I'll take a rest and go off to the Kokugikan to sing Beethoven. (Sigh...)

[_the_mind_ 0]

If this was not the case, why would he sue the institution in which he was ensconced?

anyone who was forced to take citizenship and then had a less then happy parting with the kyokai would be the ones to blow this up in the court. ....roho comes to mind very quickly. someone who is looking to get back at the kyokai and willing to take it to any length to do so. they could try to claim in court some sort of damages (emotionally or financially) that were encoured by being forced to change nationality in order to work(i.e. i cant go back home now, they wont let me.....or i face ridicule now).....whether it would hold up in court or not i dont know. it would surely also have a discrimination case wrapped up into it. and as a (now)japanese citizen, he would have the right to make these claims. ....i dont know japanese law at all, but that kind of court case would be a big winner in the US. lawyers would be lined up to take that case.

Edited February 27, 2010 by _the_mind_

[kame 0]

Do you want to see people in ozumo who are only there for the money for a few years and intend to feck off out of Japan afterwards?

If they're as good as Asashoryu, yes please.

If they're clowns on the dohyo like Wakanoho, no thanks.

[Fay 1,677]

You get the strong reaction from me because the bottom line is "no foreigners in Ozumo".

Also I don't see why a japanese is addicted to Sumo qua birth - which I highly doubt nowadays - whereas a foreigner has to prove you he is, by change of nationality.

But as Orion said, facts are different - fortunately.

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Why are you and Fay reacting so strongly to this?

Don't get me wrong: I'm not against the basic idea you have. I just can't see it working out, that's all.

To take your policeman example: you'll have citizenship first and then get the job. On the other hand, having foreign rikishi join first and "naturalize" later sounds awfully complicated.

[ragerkawa 0]

The person actually being discriminated against is the foreign-born potential recruit who is not allowed in to the heya. However, like you say, that discrimination is not illegal, and so the would-be recruit has no recourse to legal action in Japan.

I think, legally, the person with the discrimination case is the already-naturalized but not Japanese-born potential recruit. That this person falls into a different class than born citizens seems to me absolutely clear.

[Fay 1,677]

Oh yes, I think everyone is equal, although I'm not political correct.

To quote you: "Sumo needs people who are deeply committed to it." Agreed. I say a foreign rikishi can be as committed as a japanese one. But you want a proof from the foreign guy for this, although the change of nationality wouldn't prove anything.

I could accept if you said 'no foreigners in Ozumo' that would be a clear statement, it's not my opinion but everyone has the right for his/her opinion. But this 'you may enter sumo even as a foreigner, but if you are good enough to become sekitori, you need to change nationality' makes no sense at all to me.

[Takamizawa 0]

You get the strong reaction from me because the bottom line is "no foreigners in Ozumo".

That's not a reason. What's wrong with no foreigners in sumo?

Look at who would be the top dogs without the foreign rikishi. For me, I feel the overall quality of sumo would suffer greatly without its foreigners, so it has nothing to do with fairness or political correctness. Having someone change their nationality doesn't really prove anything, and it certainly won't affect the quality of someone's sumo. I just don't see the benefit.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Takamizawa

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

I have to agree with Fay here.

Even if most of the rikishi that change nationality do so because they are deeply devoted, there will always be others that do it for different reasons, money or otherwise. A change of nationality is unable to serve as proof of one's devotion.

I agree completely with you that it would be a great thing to weed out those without devotion. Unfortunately, however, I see no method of accurately and dependably "testing" one's devotion that can't be worked around. It's just a fact everyone is gonna have to live with.

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

Why do people think changing nationality shows nothing? That's illogical. Changing nationality is not exactly changing shirts you know. In Japan you have to give up your own nationality and the rights that go with it. It's a difficult and long process.

Anyone willing to go that and give up their own nationality is showing a lot of devotion by the very fact that they are changing.

Sure, but devotion to what? Money, a significant other, a general love for the country? There are many potential reasons. Also, the importance one's nationality is a subjective thing. For instance, mine doesn't mean much to me and I have no pride in being born here. That being said, I recognize that it is a huge step which would take something big to get me to take such a step. I just don't see how it can be used as proof of one's devotion to a certain vocation. It definitely shows something, but you can't prove what it's showing.

This doesn't even touch the other points, such as how do you prove a Japanese born rikishi's devotion or how do you account for changes in the level of devotion as the years go on?

I'm not trying to argue or disagree here, I'm just saying that I think the aforementioned process of achieving what you want has some flaws. :)

[_the_mind_ 0]

anyone who was forced to take citizenship

You are "forced" to change nationality now if you want to become a cop in Japan (or an oyakata), but you don't see people screaming and tearing their hair out about that.

Getting nationality is a long and difficult process in Japan. Far from being forced people who change want it for the benefits it brings to their life. It's usually only people who have a deep connection to the country who apply.

That should include rikishi.

Do you want to see people in ozumo who are only there for the money for a few years and intend to feck off out of Japan afterwards?

first, it IS being forced if you make a rule for it(isnt that what you suggested initially? or did i misread it), thats what rules are. if it wasnt a forced action then it wouldnt be a rule.

your post suggests that no one would go through the process of obtaining citizenship just for the sake of work/income. it doesnt matter how long it takes, people will do it for money. you would be VERY surprised to know the lengths people will go to make money. as was just suggested in the post above, you cant say why people do what they do. to assume it would make them more dedicated is just wrong. it just is. ...and as also said, why does this bais get thrown on foreigners ONLY? no japanese ever came into sumo, got paid, and bailed on them before? where is their inate devotion to sumo? the kind that you only get from being a japanese born rikishi

as for the comparison with a cop, i would say that is well off base as im sure cops dont function under the "entertainers visa" for a probationary time period. law enforcement and "entertainment" are extremely different by nature. the same way a president or prime minister MUST be native. its apples and oranges. are those japanese cops still functional cops if they come in a group to another country? no. is the kyokai still the kyokai if they go to another country? yes. so its different and a bad comparison. ...further, i think pretty much every country is going to not hire you in their law enforcement if you arent a citizen. but what countries force you to be a citizen to entertain in their country?

as for the oyakatas having to be citizens, there isnt a lack of talented oyakatas to make them rethink that rule yet, so it is also apples and oranges when comparing the rikishi themselves.

[_the_mind_ 0]

anyone who was forced to take citizenship

Do you want to see people in ozumo who are only there for the money for a few years and intend to feck off out of Japan afterwards?

how many years is the average sumo career?

what percentage of rikishi that retire do not stay with the kyokai? ...for them, why does it matter if they stay in japan after their sumo lives or not? what does it matter to sumo(there is no shortage of oyakatas)? what does it matter to you? if they choose to leave the kyokai why should it matter to you? japanese rikishi or not. what is the difference if they are in japan or not?

i dont personally care if they intend to stay or go once they retire, i care about what they do while they are in sumo. they are entitled to have a life after they retire....it sounds like you are suggesting you would rather have inferior fighters just for the sake of your pureist ideals. ...thats really not the way to broaden the general appeal of this sport we are all a fan of. thus crushing the support even more then it already is.

Edited February 28, 2010 by _the_mind_

[_the_mind_ 0]

A change of nationality is unable to serve as proof of one's devotion.

Why do people think changing nationality shows nothing? That's illogical.

he didnt say it shows nothing, he said it doesnt show proof of devotion, and it doesnt. its illogical to assume everyone does a certain thing for the exact same reasons.

[Blue_Wolf 24]

Good thing you did that.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

It'd be a lot easier to take your last line seriously if you hadn't included the preceding paragraph, which is inaccurate from what I understand (unless you have some evidence to refute his claim that his ex-wife moved from Japan to the US with their daughters and subsequently refused further contact). You did bring it up, after all. (Laughing...)

This is Aldwinkle we're talking about, right? Admittedly I haven't followed his fortunes for some years, but you seem to be talking about a completely different family. In fact, half the messages on this thread seem to be from people who are ignoring the facts and are talking to themselves. I think I'll take a rest and go off to the Kokugikan to sing Beethoven. (Blushing...)

Yes, it is. I have read several of his posts on his daughters being taken from him. One side of the story, to be sure. Yet, it does not jive at all with the suppositions you've presented.

http://www.debito.org/homecoming2007.html

There are more posts, and I will see about digging them out of the archives if you're truly interested in all sides of the story...

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Now, in Japan Times:

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Now, in Japan Times:

"After Asashoryu's retirement, there remain 42 foreign-born rikishi in the top ranks."

I stopped reading after that...

[Sashohitowa 6]

As someone who sees it that way I don't think foreigners have any intrinsic right to be allowed to join sumo. I place great weight in the fact that the sumo kyokai exists to promote sumo among the Japanese population.

This sound to me like it would be right if only Polish people are allowed to play Chopin in order to promote his music among the Polish population, or only Austrian cooks to prepare Sachertorte that is to be served to Austrian clients.

Besides being a little racist (this topic has been discussed broadly already), such approach is also quite stupid: If you have the best performers*), it can only increase the quality of the outcome - which can only be of benefit for the recipient.

*) And by "performer" I mean not purely a sportsman, but a person who is also devoted to the cultural aspect of ozumo.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

If you have the best performers*), it can only increase the quality of the outcome - which can only be of benefit for the recipient.

*) And by "performer" I mean not purely a sportsman, but a person who is also devoted to the cultural aspect of ozumo.

Devil's advocate: Perhaps we should revisit the "why is the banzuke strictly meritocratic based on honbasho results" question, then. (In a state of confusion...) If they truly wanted to find the people who perform best on a combination of physical performance and (for lack of a better term) hinkaku, they should probably go back to reflecting that in their ranking decisions somehow. (Would perennial pouter Roho ever have made it out of juryo?)

More seriously though - of course being devoted to the cultural side of ozumo doesn't require a high ranking. Just think of somebody like ex-Ichinoya who was clearly well-respected for his understanding of sumo culture and history. The problem (in as much as it might be one) is that this type of dedication is virtually ignored by the vast majority of foreign fans who know barely anything below makuuchi - not because they don't want to know (although there are plenty of those fans, too), but because it's difficult for them to cultivate that type of interest in ozumo. Case in point: the saying about Tokyo sandanme being hometown ozeki, i.e. even lower-rankers drawing respect back home as long they represent themselves and their origins well "in the city". Foreign fans can't really develop that type of connection, so they necessarily go with what's easily available and obvious, and that's the physical performance.

And foreign rikishi have the same issue - how many times during the 2000-2005 recruiting wave did we hear a non-Mongolian foreign rikishi say he found out about ozumo via Eurosport? (In a state of confusion...) As good and useful as those broadcasts were, it was still a very warped view of what ozumo is. That said, I'm obviously not in favour of restricting foreign participation in any of the ways Nishinoshima outlined. (I'm also not a fan of Jonosuke's draft idea - if you start handing the best prospects to the worst-performing oyakata, you better introduce some type of free agency clause as well or it's bound to be a mess of spectacular proportions.)

For those who were following the Olympics, you may have noticed that the women's ice hockey tournament was utterly dominated by Canada and the United States, with some people saying it called into question the legitimacy of having the tournament at all. An interesting point was brought up in response to that: Back in the 1920s the Canadian men's hockey team regularly beat all its opponents in double digits (see e.g. here), and by the 2006 Torino Olympics they lost 2-0 against lowly Switzerland. The same is true for women's ice hockey and for foreign participation in ozumo - there are no shortcuts, but if you let things go long enough (and help steer them in the right direction, of course), you will get a favourable outcome. As such I'm opposed to limiting foreign recruitment in response to whatever damage Asashoryu may have done. What's needed is more stringent enforcement of both the written and unwritten rules that already exist - give enough people the opportunity to either succeed or fail, just make sure it actually is possible to fail, so you get to weed out the trouble-makers and cultivate a population of foreign rikishi who actually understand why they're there, who then can serve as trendsetters and role models for the next generation. Because that was the long-running problem in how they handled Asashoryu, nobody put their foot down forcefully enough until it was way too late. (And arguably the same holds true for "homegrown" problems such as the hazing mess and related issues.)

Edited March 2, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,319]

"After Asashoryu's retirement, there remain 42 foreign-born rikishi in the top ranks."

I stopped reading after that...

So you still read "Even sumo, the national sport (kokugi) ...", right? I think a public debate between Arudo and Mark Buckton could be grand drama, for a variety of reasons. (In a state of confusion...)

Sadly though, you made the right decision. The article did get even worse after the part you quoted. It's like all his sumo information is 10 years out of date, other than the most recent development. I suppose that's par for the course for professional activists who merely flit in and out of ever-new topics, unencumbered by actual knowledge.

Edit: But yeah, publicly distributed nonsense like this is exactly the reason why the Kyokai shot a veritable own-goal with the rule change. Lots of potential for bad press, and for little gain. (Don't wake sleeping dogs!) So we'll get perhaps 10 new foreign rikishi over the next five years instead of 15? Whoopdedoo.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Sashohitowa 6]

If you have the best performers*), it can only increase the quality of the outcome - which can only be of benefit for the recipient.

*) And by "performer" I mean not purely a sportsman, but a person who is also devoted to the cultural aspect of ozumo.

Devil's advocate: Perhaps we should revisit the "why is the banzuke strictly meritocratic based on honbasho results" question, then. ;-) If they truly wanted to find the people who perform best on a combination of physical performance and (for lack of a better term) hinkaku, they should probably go back to reflecting that in their ranking decisions somehow. (Would perennial pouter Roho ever have made it out of juryo?)

What I wanted to say is that I acknowledge the fact that Kyokai's mission is not only to facilitate and organize periodical tournaments, but also to take care of the cultural aspect of ozumo. They can do it not only by "stimulating" the hinkaku rikishi (although that Jakusotsu sensed that the recent banzuke making might be somehow related with the rikishi popularity), but by organizing jungyo, involving the famous rikishi in PR activities, making rikishi following traditional rules (mage, kimono, the whole heya life in general).

And it is all good, and it is what we all like in ozumo, we all*) want to watch and we all want to be preserved. My point is that you don't need to restrict the foreigners, in order to achieve your goals. Or naturalize them, or any other desperate action.

And by the way, I do not agree with the point of view that the gaijin are bad for ozumo, because they come only for the money. How many Japanese kids join heyas because they want to "help their families"? it's the same, isn't it? Just that the bad foreigners usually climb higher in the ranks. And here the xenophobia kicks in, because by doing that "they take the places of our kids", "demotivate Japanese to join", etc. If most of the gaijins were sitting somewhere in Sandame, nobody would cared about that "problem".