Bakanohana 0 Posted March 20, 2010 I really hate henka, especially in the upper divisions. Sekitori who have to do that to win have no business in the upper divisions. I was happy that Baruto turned the tables on Kakuryu. Harumafuji's henka a couple basho ago turned me off him permanently. The sumo this basho has been spotty at best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genseida 0 Posted March 20, 2010 (edited) I agree with the above. The first two days were very iffy, and I started to wonder about the quality of the dohyo, as so many contestants seemed not to be able to get traction on it, and slipped over. ;-) Edited March 20, 2010 by genseida Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted March 20, 2010 I agree with the above. The first two days were very iffy, and I started to wonder about the quality of the dohyo, as so many contestants seemed not to be able to get traction on it, and slipped over. (Holiday feeling...) The materials used to build both the Nagoya and the Osaka dohyos almost always result in a slipperier surface than in the other venues. This is normal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HenryK 38 Posted March 20, 2010 I for my part like a well-executed henka every now and then. It is one way to outsmart your opponent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Takamizawa 0 Posted March 20, 2010 I can only usually stand henkas when they are committed against serial henka-ers. In those cases it's just justice heh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treblemaker 254 Posted March 20, 2010 Ther have been some excellent matches, but it's not crap sumo, it's the rikishi's ability (or pronounced lack of it) to deal with the positions they are placed. The banzuke was flawed from the outset, caused by Asa's and Taikai's absence. Add to the fact that you have guys in positions they were never intended to be, and you have skewed numbers. And lots and lots of mismatches. Hakuho is taking on people who frankly are petrified to even be lining up against him. Check out the roster and the successes (or lack thereof...) From SekE and up, everybody is having a great time. From Sek W right down to M4E, people are crapping out left and right (GIku being the exception). Then head to the bottom quarter, where people are kicking butt again. The problem is that (as I mentioned before) this is a transitional basho, and I wouldn't count the successes and failures in this as gospel. People are placed higher than they should be because there's nowhere else to put them. Then you have people coming off poor showings, or coming back from injuries, and they're making the attempt to climb back where they want to be. When it's all done next week, there will by some strange numbers for a lot of people. I think the banzuke for May will be more correct in terms of ranking. But yeah, that was one hell of a henka-attempt, and an incredible recovery. What Kak wasn't counting on was Baruto's agiility... For someone that big to be able to pivot that fast... well, let's start saying "ozeki" together... And don't think we're done yet... look for more possible games as Aminishiki, HF, and others might throw the side-steps into the mix as we get closer to the end, and people jockey for position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoviki 16 Posted March 20, 2010 The awful henkas started yesterday in jonidan of all places!!! They were consistent all day and I too hate them! Hoshikaze did one today and as much as I like him I was really angry about that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,111 Posted March 20, 2010 The banzuke was flawed from the outset, caused by Asa's and Taikai's absence. Asa's retirement had no bearing whatsoever on making of the Banzuke, as it was made before he announced his retirement. All they did was erase his name. I think if you check out previous bashos, you'll see that the top 8 Maegashira slots usually do this bad (give or take when Kisenosato or some other Sekiwake regular drops down there for whatever reason, but that then is balanced by a lousy Komusubi/sekiwake). It would be interesting to compile win/loss records of the top 8 Maegashira for, say, the last 6 bashos and see if this one is really that hard on them in comparison. Not me though.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Babaryutaikai 1 Posted March 20, 2010 I'm not sure it is the banzuke as much as it is the difficulty in the torikumi matchings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 814 Posted March 20, 2010 I for my part like a well-executed henka every now and then. It is one way to outsmart your opponent. Fair enough but that certainly wasn't what we saw today. Wasn't well-executed and Baruto wasn't outsmarted. It just made Kakuryu look like a fool. Why does he feel the need to resort to this so often? A henka should be a rarely employed, surprise move only in my book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treblemaker 254 Posted March 21, 2010 The banzuke was flawed from the outset, caused by Asa's and Taikai's absence. Asa's retirement had no bearing whatsoever on making of the Banzuke, as it was made before he announced his retirement. All they did was erase his name. .... What I meant did not only refer to the banzuke directly, but the matches that resulted in not having Asa and Taikai in the rotation, and the fact that a lot of people are ranked way too high. Ok, here's what I meant: With thanks to Kobayashi Toshiharu Newsgroups: rec.sport.sumo 2010 March Tournament Shikona Rank Shikona Hakuho OOOOOOO Yokozuna Harumafuji OOOOOOO Ozeki Kotooshu O*OOO%O Kaio OO**OOO Ozeki Kotomitsuki O*O*OOO Baruto OOOOOOO Sekiwake Toyonoshima OOO**** Kisenosato *O*O*** Komusubi Aminishiki *O***OO Kakuryu ***O*O* M.1 Wakanosato ******* Kyokutenho ******O M.2 Aran ******* Goeido **OO*#a M.3 Kotoshogiku OOOOO** Tamawashi *O*OO** M.4 Tosayutaka ******* Toyohibiki O****** M.5 Homasho *OO*OOO Tochiozan O*OO*OO M.6 Tochinoshin O*O*OOO Miyabiyama *O*OOOO M.7 Kakizoe *O*OOOO Iwakiyama OOO**** M.8 Takekaze O****O* Hakuba **O*O*O M.9 Yoshikaze *****O* Kitataiki O*OOO** M.10 Shimotori *O*O*** Asasekiryu OOOO*O* M.11 Hokutoriki ***OO** Okinoumi **OO**O M.12 Takamisakari OO*O*OO Tokitenku OOOOOOO M.13 Tokusegawa *OO**OO Kokkai O*O*OOO M.14 Tamanoshima *O**O** Sagatsukasa O*OOO** M.15 Mokonami **OOO*O Kasugao O***O** M.16 Bushuyama OO***O* bold - getting their butts whipped italics - whipping someone else's butt. There's a whole lot of ineptitude going on from SekW to M5E (with Giku being the exception). I don't ever recall this being the norm in any other basho... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted March 21, 2010 There's a whole lot of ineptitude going on from SekW to M5E (with Giku being the exception). I don't ever recall this being the norm in any other basho... This looks very normal to me. It has happened during the first week of most of the bashos since at least the 1970's. That is why they refer to the joijin as the meatgrinder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted March 21, 2010 I don't ever recall this being the norm in any other basho... Last year's Nagoya basho? That's a combined Day 7 record of 16-47 for the meatgrinder. (Which ended at Iwakiyama that basho, the rest is only included in the query for illustration.) Anyway, yes, the removal of Asashoryu and Chiyotaikai necessarily made the non-Y/O part of the joi-jin larger so it may look worse right now, but in turn the beat-up will be over more quickly - only 5 bouts against Y/O instead of 7. You're comparing apples and oranges if you try to draw exact parallels between this basho and earlier ones at this point; let's wait and see what it looks like after Day 15, I doubt it'll be any worse than we've seen lots and lots of times before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treblemaker 254 Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) There's a whole lot of ineptitude going on from SekW to M5E (with Giku being the exception). I don't ever recall this being the norm in any other basho... This looks very normal to me. It has happened during the first week of most of the bashos since at least the 1970's. That is why they refer to the joijin as the meatgrinder. I don't ever recall this being the norm in any other basho... Last year's Nagoya basho? That's a combined Day 7 record of 16-47 for the meatgrinder. (Which ended at Iwakiyama that basho, the rest is only included in the query for illustration.) Anyway, yes, the removal of Asashoryu and Chiyotaikai necessarily made the non-Y/O part of the joi-jin larger so it may look worse right now, but in turn the beat-up will be over more quickly - only 5 bouts against Y/O instead of 7. You're comparing apples and oranges* if you try to draw exact parallels between this basho and earlier ones at this point; let's wait and see what it looks like after Day 15, I doubt it'll be any worse than we've seen lots and lots of times before. *You're right. That fact hadn't occurred to me. And I will happily concede that the both of you are probably more correct than I am, but with all of the brutal records being thrown up in the M1-4 range, plus the fact that there have been (it seemed to me) an awful lot of mis-matches and wash-outs... I just can never recall the carnage being quite this pronounced. Or mayb i just wasn't watching closely enough... Edited March 21, 2010 by Treblemaker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gusoyama 103 Posted March 21, 2010 Here's a graphical representation of wins in joi-jin by decade. And here's the average wins by decade: 2000s: 5.960 1990s: 5.925 1980s: 5.415 1970s: 6.085 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
