It started with Hoshitango

[Mark Buckton 1]

QttP-san,

if you are here thanks. About some of the things you raised 'across the page' can I ask 3 questions?

1. Which, if any holds priority for yourself and in your opinion most holders of the Jewish faith who are also Israeli? The nationality / passport or the faith?

2. Do you see a disctinction between Israeli Jews and non-Israeli Jews?

3. Is Judaism the 'mother' of Christianity in your eyes?***

I ask these questions having some years back got hold of a book(editted from boot - my typo) titled (I think) The Japanese and The Jews. Throughout the concept was one of a Jewish 'race' and was written by a Jewish professor I believe (will let you know his name). Even the title would appear to equate that belief as Japanese for the most part DO consider themselves a race distinct from all others - Asian Mongoloid or otherwise and the book was a comparative study on both being 'outsiders' as the author called them.

The whole concept interests me greatly and since I was offered 1 of only 6 annual slots to study Middle Eastern politics / ancient languages and Biblical issues in Jerusalem's Uni some 8 or so years back (chose scuba diving in OZ and a subsequesnt focus on NE Asia) I'd like to see some of what I missed to some extent.

*** meaning that most Japanese I have asked - including highly educated Japanese see Jews and Christians as peas from the same pod. To some extent understandable as all are 'foreign' and western in many eyes here.

ANR

Edited January 26, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Fujisan 533]

Your touching a very sensitive area Adachi,the last time we touched religion we came to cyber blows,so I urge caution.

As I said once before when I start discussing religion I start losing friends and Im sure Im not the only one.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Your touching a very sensitive area Adachi,the last time we touched religion we came to cyber blows,so I urge caution.

As I said once before when I start discussing religion I start losing friends and Im sure Im not the only one.

Cheers Fujisan,

I do appreciate the warning but I think that the readers of this and the last thread won't see any ill intent though - bar Asashosakari's misreading - and I believe I can learn from any opinion QttP may post whilst hoping to some extent he can learn something as to the opinion of at least one (me) other.

Oftentimes I envy the Jewish passion for their faith as long as it, like all faiths at one time or another doesn't breed an intolerance for others / and their beliefs.

Christianity, Judaism, Shintoism (alphabetical) all have had their problems in the past. Only by talking and sharing will we all learn and move towards more tolerance - a position not achieved in believing that the believers in one faith are more 'special / holy' than another I feel but by believing our own faith more but still respecting that of others.

ANR

[QttP 0]

I will try to answer your questions, ANR-zeki, but at all times I will try avoiding any direct discussion of religions and politics. I share our Rijicho's opinion that this forum should be as free from those subjects as possible.

My English is not good enough to talk freely on these topics, so I won't be able to say everything I want to say, and hopefully I will still get the point across.

1.

I can't speak for the majority of Israeli Jews, and I'm not even sure I know the opinion of the majority, because there are so many groups here.

Not all Jews living here are religious, and orthodox (or ultra-orhodox) Jews, the ones we call "Haredim" (those that wear traditional black clothing, cylinders) are only a small part of the population.

Most of the people here are secular, some consider themselves atheists, and some are even anti-religious. Therefore, among Israeli Jews, I doubt that the majority values faith over other aspects of being a Jew/Israeli.

But the Jewish nationality isn't just religion, nor it is just a passport: it's a lot of traditions, a lot of history, a lot of philosophy. All these are things which people here are being exposed to as children, during Bible lessons in school, which cover all aspects of the Bible (Old Testament) - historical, theological, moral, ethical, philosophical, jurisdictional (with the Bible including one of the oldest written legal codes, and probably the oldest which has survived). Of course, there are history classes as well, where kids study about general history and the history of our people (including the modern one), but those are present in all education systems. The Bible classes, however, are not something rather unique.

I believe, that all these things together are what creates the Jewish identity, and I think that this is what most people value (including myself, who isn't religious too).

2.

That depends on what do you mean by "distinction". To me they are a part of the Jewish people, the Jewish nationality, who happen to live in another country. Just like there are Russians in the Ukraine and in Belarus, and in Germany and in the US.

3.

There is no doubt that Christianity originated from Judaism - that's a historical fact. The one who the Christians call Jesus was a Jew, and in his life, he did not believe he was creating a new religion, but rather that he was adapting Judaism to the new situation presented by the Roman rule of Judea. Traditional Judaism did not accept him or his followers, and with time they drifted further and further off the main course, enough to eventually become a new religion. The teachings of Jesus and his first followers (who also wrote the New Testament) grew more popular after the Romans had crushed the Jewish rebellion, sometime around 70 AD, and basically destroyed Judea. But all that was after Jesus himself was crucified by Pilate.

I don't know enough about Christianity to be able to mark the exact, or even approximate time when it became large enough to be called a new religion, and I don't know the evolution between Jesus's original concepts and modern Christianity. But to some, the fact that the Bible as the Christians know it is mostly the Old Testament, is more than enough to call Judaism the mother of Christianity. Think of something as basic as the Ten Commandments - Christianity brought them from Judaism without any modifications.

So, yes, I think Christianity can be called a child of Judaism, but they are different enough to be considered completely separate religions, as they are.

All in all, I hope this answers your questions.

[Mark Buckton 1]

QttP-san,

Thank you very much for such a thought out and in-depth answer. I sincerely appreciate it, have learnt a lot from yourself and the answer(s) and will now leave the religious topic.

Thanks again (Clapping wildly...)

ANR

[Fujisan 533]

QTTP

I just cant let your opinions on Jesus and the origins of Christianity (3) without stating that they 'are opinions' without proof.

Edited January 26, 2004 by Fujisan

[Rijicho 6]

Can this thread be considered consummated on its own now?

[Mark Buckton 1]

The name I said I'd let you know is as follows with other info:

Title: The Jews And The Japanese (The Successful Outsiders)

Author: Ben-Ami Shillony

First Edition 1992

ISBN 0-8048-1635-2

Only my opinion but worth a read if not for interest on the aspects discussed above for the insights into the Japan of today.

ANR

[QttP 0]

Can this thread be considered consummated on its own now?

As far as I'm concerned, it's over allright.