Hakuho to break another record?

[Harry 67]

Meh. In tennis you have to get used to different surfaces at the Grand Slams. Same with golf; you have to adjust to completely different courses. Why should sumo be different.

It isn't any different but it seems many rikishi don't adjust to the differences.

[kotoeikoku 0]

Meh. In tennis you have to get used to different surfaces at the Grand Slams. Same with golf; you have to adjust to completely different courses. Why should sumo be different.

Its not. Just like in tennis, it would appear some do better on one surface and not others.

[Treblemaker 254]

Meh. In tennis you have to get used to different surfaces at the Grand Slams. Same with golf; you have to adjust to completely different courses. Why should sumo be different.

It isn't any different but it seems many rikishi don't adjust to the differences.

I disagree. True, some guys can't adjust, but depending on the bout, sometimes there just isn't time to change something that ones does almost instictively - plant feet and push/pull/etc... Last year there were many bouts lost in each non-Tokyo basho simply because someone lost his footing. Plain as that.

Regarding tennis... for starts, tennis players (at the elite level) have different shoes for different surfaces. Mostly these are one-of-a-kind footwear that has tread material that one would not find out there in the stores. In some cases, the soles of the shoes are different from each other, depending on whether the player is a server or a volleyer. The same goes for football players - depending on the length of the grass, wet or dry, artificial turf, etc.. several different shoes to suit different surfaces.

Rikishi have no such options. and if a bout is the third or fourth after a lot of salt-throwing, mixed with the conditions of the dohyo surface, there's bound to be slippery spots. For some reason, some dohyos are more dangerous than others.

It is just hoped that this doesn't come into play during an important bout... but it might.

[Gusoyama 104]

If anyone can do it, its Hakuho. He's steady as a rock. But again, I say it only takes one day, and go back to Joe DiMaggio's 56 games, and that near-impossible to beat record. 69 wins is a LOT of days in a row. Nearly 5 basho. Getting 69 wins in 5 basho, non-consecutively, has only happened 32 times(many overlapping), and Hakuho has 8 of those, the last month of which just happen to be the past 8 basho. The other men to do it?:

Taiho - 6

Kitanoumi - 5

Asashoryu - 4

Takanohana - 3

Chiyonofuji - 2

Futabayama - 2

Tamanoumi - 2

Hakuho, by the way, is the only rikishi to win 72/75 in 5 consecutive. That's just how good he is right now.

[Treblemaker 254]

If anyone can do it, its Hakuho. He's steady as a rock. But again, I say it only takes one day, and go back to Joe DiMaggio's 56 games, and that near-impossible to beat record. 69 wins is a LOT of days in a row. Nearly 5 basho. Getting 69 wins in 5 basho, non-consecutively, has only happened 32 times(many overlapping), and Hakuho has 8 of those, the last month of which just happen to be the past 8 basho. The other men to do it?:

Taiho - 6

Kitanoumi - 5

Asashoryu - 4

Takanohana - 3

Chiyonofuji - 2

Futabayama - 2

Tamanoumi - 2

Hakuho, by the way, is the only rikishi to win 72/75 in 5 consecutive. That's just how good he is right now.

No disputing his record, and admitting the fact that he has yet to reach his prime, his dominance isn't just indicative of how good he is (and yes, he's that good), but also indicative of just how bad everyone else is...

He really didn't work up much of a sweat this past basho. Most of his wins were so straightforward that it wasn't even a contest. In too many cases, the penultimate bout was the denuement of the day's activities. Sad comment, really. Not so much for his successes but for the lack thereof of his "closest rivals".

He's won 72/75 bouts. Of course he has. Given the current landscape, for him NOT to have done so would have been almost catastrophic.

Again I say: (1) the man has NO competition (2) it's not hard being a shark in a koi pond.

The only major difference between his dominance and the same of Asashoryu in his days as the sole Yok is his methodic approach - successful as it is - totally lacking in any display of charisma, intensity or passion. This doesn't mean he has none - of course he has. It's just that it's as exciting to watch as is might be to watch a good chef cooking a steak.

Julia Child was far more exciting. Seriously. And the chicken put up almost as much of a battle.

[Sokkenaiyama 81]

I mostly agree with what's been said around here, except the last few statements. I've got nothing against you, Lex, but the whole "Hak is soo boring and Asa was so exciting" shtick is getting a bit old. If Hakuho's performance on the dohyo doesn't do it for you and you need the whole circus Asa was providing, I guess you should do yourself a favor and turn to pro-wrestling and other exciting stuff like that.

I'm also a bit confused about what you might understand by "charisma", "passion"and "intensity". Should we expect him to slap his mawashi hard before the last salt throw? Maybe he should dame-oshi every opponent? Or maybe he should go for tsuriotoshi/yaguranage/yobimodoshi (he CAN perform all those, mind you) when a simple yorikiri would be enough? Please explain.

[Gusoyama 104]

I understand what Treblemaker was saying, but I believe that it's more a matter of personal taste. I enjoy the flawless dispatching of his opponents, and while its not as exciting as a waza-fest, I still like it.

As far as competition goes, I think if you look at rikishi strength ratings, Hakuho's competition is actually more difficult than Asa's. This is hard to quantify, even with ratings, but having Kotooshu, Harumafuji, and Baruto seems to be harder than what Asa had to face back in 2004, even with a healthy and younger Chiyotaikai and Kaio.

[Asashosakari 19,663]

Yeah, "everybody else is really bad" would, to me, imply that we have Hakuho at 15-0, another one or two guys regularly at 11-4 or 12-3 (without ever really threatening Hak), then almost the entire rest of the joi-jin struggling to post more than 8 wins back-to-back. Actually that's more like what Asashoryu faced, where the main competition was whichever ozeki happened to not be injured that basho (combining to be that "one guy"), plus Wakanosato as a steady KK'er. And that was it, until Kotooshu and Hakuho came along. (Even Kotomitsuki regularly went MK at the time, albeit usually just 7-8.) Have people really forgotten the kadoban parade of 2003-2005 already? What Hakuho is facing is a high-level parity among the ozeki, plus more parity among the next 4 or 5 guys.

Many sports would kill for that level of competitiveness. If Ozumo was set up more like tennis, sure Hakuho (as the Federer or whoever of sumo) would still win all the tournaments, but there'd be a highly exciting battle throughout the earlier rounds for the right to challenge him in the final (where, who knows, somebody might fluke a win). Ozumo's roundrobin structure doesn't allow for that, but that doesn't mean Hakuho's dominance implies that everyone else is bad; they're just not as good as he is.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,530]

Sokken & Asasho

I'm more and more convinced that you post merely for posting's sake, to see your name on the page, racking up your forum-leading posting numbers

Objection!!! Other than that, like you say, it's your view against theirs. Everyone gets to air their views, and everyone gets to poke them, and everyone should be ready for anything. It's a wonderful world.

I hardly post my views anymore, unless they are food-related- (stakes, etc..). Somewhere along the line I stopped being ready, I guess.. [rare views]And Hakuhou is boring and one dimensional, yet I like him a lot, totally reminds me of Takanohana and the same things being said about him back then minus the non-competitiveness. I miss Asa, yet he was too much at times, even for a big fan like me. The competition definitely is stiffer today. [/rare views]

Lousy Eurovision song contest bloc voting "and our 12 points go to to our friends and neighbors" dung.

Why does it still bother me??

Edited May 30, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Sokkenaiyama 81]

Yeah, Lex, the flame was cheap and intentional. You deserved it. For all those halibut puns. Ugh!

(Sign of approval...)

[Orion 431]

Objection!!! Other than that, like you say, it's your view against theirs. Everyone gets to air their views, and everyone gets to poke them, and everyone should be ready for anything. It's a wonderful world.

I hardly post my views anymore, unless they are food-related- (stakes, etc..). Somewhere along the line I stopped being ready, I guess.. [rare views]And Hakuhou is boring and one dimensional, yet I like him a lot, totally reminds me of Takanohana and the same things being said about him back then minus the non-competitiveness. I miss Asa, yet he was too much at times, even for a big fan like me. The competition definitely is stiffer today. [/rare views]

Lousy Eurovision song contest bloc voting "and our 12 points go to to our friends and neighbors" dung.

Why does it still bother me??

Oh my goodness me! I take a day and a half off to sing a major concert (Brahms, Elgar, and, among others, the entire Rheinberger Mass (Liechtenstein rules!) followed this morning by an Anglican service that required me to sing a _very_ Russian anthem plus it was my turn to do the Intercessions (aka Prayers of the People) -- and what do I find? a flame war. Hide your heads for shame. Aren't there enough problems in the world? After the service, I got some questions about the topical extras I had put into my intercessions. I was shocked to discover how many of our Tokyo congregation seemed unaware of the ecological disaster still spreading out in Miami and wide environs, and also, here in Japan, the grief over the slaughter of some of the world's best beef stud bulls (which take about eight years to produce) and tens of thousands of other prime cattle in Miyazaki prefecture. And "What's happening in Jamaica?" asked one person.

Seriously, don't you people have anything better to do?

Totally off-topic, and so it should be.

[shoutenzan 0]

Objection!!! Other than that, like you say, it's your view against theirs. Everyone gets to air their views, and everyone gets to poke them, and everyone should be ready for anything. It's a wonderful world.

I hardly post my views anymore, unless they are food-related- (stakes, etc..). Somewhere along the line I stopped being ready, I guess.. [rare views]And Hakuhou is boring and one dimensional, yet I like him a lot, totally reminds me of Takanohana and the same things being said about him back then minus the non-competitiveness. I miss Asa, yet he was too much at times, even for a big fan like me. The competition definitely is stiffer today. [/rare views]

Lousy Eurovision song contest bloc voting "and our 12 points go to to our friends and neighbors" dung.

Why does it still bother me??

Oh my goodness me! I take a day and a half off to sing a major concert (Brahms, Elgar, and, among others, the entire Rheinberger Mass (Liechtenstein rules!) followed this morning by an Anglican service that required me to sing a _very_ Russian anthem plus it was my turn to do the Intercessions (aka Prayers of the People) -- and what do I find? a flame war. Hide your heads for shame. Aren't there enough problems in the world? After the service, I got some questions about the topical extras I had put into my intercessions. I was shocked to discover how many of our Tokyo congregation seemed unaware of the ecological disaster still spreading out in Miami and wide environs, and also, here in Japan, the grief over the slaughter of some of the world's best beef stud bulls (which take about eight years to produce) and tens of thousands of other prime cattle in Miyazaki prefecture. And "What's happening in Jamaica?" asked one person.

Seriously, don't you people have anything better to do?

Totally off-topic, and so it should be.

Hear hear! I've spent the day listening to Elektra and Die Walkure and uploading Shostakovich onto my iPhone. They all help me think about the problems in the world. It's a desperate situation out there. Sumo makes life worth living; as does music; and wine.

[Jejima 1,415]

Bump!

And California dreamin' is becoming a reality.... (Band playing...)

[Peterao 3]

The Hakuho road to 100 consecutive shiroboshi?

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

The Hakuho road to 100 consecutive shiroboshi?

Which sounds infinitely more likely than the other recently abandoned road ever has.

[tympsa 0]

Yeah, "everybody else is really bad" would, to me, imply that we have Hakuho at 15-0, another one or two guys regularly at 11-4 or 12-3 (without ever really threatening Hak), then almost the entire rest of the joi-jin struggling to post more than 8 wins back-to-back. Actually that's more like what Asashoryu faced, where the main competition was whichever ozeki happened to not be injured that basho (combining to be that "one guy"), plus Wakanosato as a steady KK'er. And that was it, until Kotooshu and Hakuho came along. (Even Kotomitsuki regularly went MK at the time, albeit usually just 7-8.) Have people really forgotten the kadoban parade of 2003-2005 already? What Hakuho is facing is a high-level parity among the ozeki, plus more parity among the next 4 or 5 guys.

Many sports would kill for that level of competitiveness. If Ozumo was set up more like tennis, sure Hakuho (as the Federer or whoever of sumo) would still win all the tournaments, but there'd be a highly exciting battle throughout the earlier rounds for the right to challenge him in the final (where, who knows, somebody might fluke a win). Ozumo's roundrobin structure doesn't allow for that, but that doesn't mean Hakuho's dominance implies that everyone else is bad; they're just not as good as he is.

You are regular Nostradamus predicting outcome of future tournaments. But only in your 1st sentence. (Laughing...) Everything else was... (Band playing...) , letś say exact opposite would be more accurate.

No competition in top at all. Hakuho got his zensho yusho easier than Federer ever won the tournament. And rest of the field is really-really poor. And my prediction is : we will see Hak`s total domination in next few years or at least until his next serious injury. Far more dominant than Federer or Asashoryu ever was.

At least Federer had Nadal on #2 spot even on his most dominant years. Fed never beat Nadal in Roland Garros. After Asa was kicked out, Hak has no real competition left. They are all his bitches.

[Asashosakari 19,663]

You are regular Nostradamus predicting outcome of future tournaments. But only in your 1st sentence. (Laughing...) Everything else was... (Band playing...) , letś say exact opposite would be more accurate.

That's pretty odd, considering I wasn't making any predictions, just describing the recent history. (If I'm wrong, I guess we can look forward to several more jun-yusho by Aran and Homasho.) This basho actually didn't do anything to destroy the notion of (too much) parity at the top excepting Hakuho. But hey, feel free to read what you want to read...

Again, the problem isn't that everybody else is too bad, it's that the 15-day tournament system demonstrates too quickly that there's a large difference between #1 (Hakuho) and #2 to ~#12 who are all pretty close to each other. Those 10+ guys are taking too many wins from each other because there's no clear second or third power behind Hakuho. If the ozeki squad had the benefit of a weak meatgrinder - the way it was for much of the early 1990s and for Asashoryu's early yokozuna years - we'd see more 10-1 type of starts from Harumafuji/Kotooshu/Baruto. But they'd be just as incapable of touching Hakuho, just like the ozeki around 2005 were unable to touch Asashoryu. Well, except Tochiazuma for some reason. That's all that is missing right now, one guy who can give Hakuho a run for his money (without necessarily being capable of winning tournaments regularly), and Hakuho would look no different than Asashoryu did - very dominant, but not invincible.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ryafuji 815]

So just two more zensho-yusho to go and then he'll also beat last year's "most wins in a calendar year" record...

[tympsa 0]

That's all that is missing right now, one guy who can give Hakuho a run for his money

Agreed with this. We missing this ONE guy ( ot better two) who would make things interesting in very top.But IMO, Hakuho is not better than he was say... 6 or 4 months ago. He is still pretty much same. Gap between him and rest of the field is bigger ( or seems bigger) because Asa is missing. Presence of dangerous Asa put extra pressure on Hakuho and sometimes he couldnt handle it.Sometimes he slipped early, sometime Asa did, sometimes they both did and it gave rest of the field more chances to stay in yusho race and make things nervous for yokozunas. Tough competition between Asa and Hak made also rest of the field to look like better than they really were. Now their weakness is exposed.

Now Hak is sure he wins anyway. He knows he can afford 1, 2 , or even 3 fluke losses and still win tournament.What a huge advantage it is in mental department ! Knowing the fact that he wins anyway,all pressure is off and he can steamroll over the field like it was bunch of amateurs.

That missing ONE "good enough" guy means generally : level after Hakuho sucks big time. Which is bad for sport if main open questions of the of the tournament is who gets jun-yusho and whether all ozekis get their 8 or not.

But we have what we have. We cant get Asa back to make things more competetive. And we cant make ozekis better, they are what they are - bunch of " i have to get my 8 " guys. All we can do is wait until some new challenger will arrive.It may take years. Hopeful signs Baruto gave during his ozeki-run , were obviously fools gold. Mirage is desert .He is not so good after all to challenge yokozuna.

[Mariomaru 0]

I was hoping that Kotooshu and Baruto would go for tsuna, now when Asa is gone. But Osh seems to be content as an ozeki and Baruto lacks sumo sense whatsoever.

Can you imagine Baruto with Ama's drive and technique? And I mean Ama, because Harumafuji also is somewhat lost.

[Harry 67]

The Hakuho road to 100 consecutive shiroboshi?

Which sounds infinitely more likely than the other recently abandoned road ever has.

I don't know, it looks more like "The Hakuho road to 100 consecutive zensho yusho" right now (Band playing...)

Hakuho doesn't appear to have any competition at this stage. Sure, he'll slip or someone will henka him or he'll get injured but in an actual match on the dohyo with Hakuho healthy I don't see any real losses from anyone likely these days. The ozeki group just collectively doesn't seem to have it in them. Settled in now, no need to do anything heroic. I hope to be proven wrong soon.

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

So just two more zensho-yusho to go and then he'll also beat last year's "most wins in a calendar year" record...

That, and Futabayama's 69 of course.

And about all that "Hakuho lacks competition" talk: any lesser man than Hakuho would have lost against Baruto's onslaught today. It's not the other guy's mediocrity making Hakuho look strong, it's Hakuho's strength making the other guys look mediocre.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jakusotsu

[Asashosakari 19,663]

Now Hak is sure he wins anyway. He knows he can afford 1, 2 , or even 3 fluke losses and still win tournament.What a huge advantage it is in mental department ! Knowing the fact that he wins anyway,all pressure is off and he can steamroll over the field like it was bunch of amateurs.

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. To me it seems the major change isn't even that Asashoryu is gone, it's that Hakuho has somehow decided he won't have any more fluke losses ever. Perhaps that's helped by Asashoryu's departure, but I think that development was already going on even earlier. Plenty of people don't like what they perceive as his hesitant tachiai (which of course is wildly different from Asashoryu's all-out style)...he seems content to start the bout in a potentially disadvantageous position because he knows he can recover from just about anything - as long as he makes sure not to lose in the first couple of seconds.

That missing ONE "good enough" guy means generally : level after Hakuho sucks big time. Which is bad for sport if main open questions of the of the tournament is who gets jun-yusho and whether all ozekis get their 8 or not.

Well, it could always be worse...imagine a situation where not only the yusho is guaranteed to be Hakuho's, but that the jun-yusho is guaranteed to be either Harumafuji's or Baruto's, and never with more than 13 wins so that Hakuho's victory is still not in doubt. That's why I don't mind the level of parity below Hakuho - at least none of the other sanyaku bouts are foregone conclusions.

And on the upside, I really enjoyed Hakuho's bouts this basho. Ever since the winning streak passed 35 or so, it seems like everybody is trying to give him a good bout, even guys like Baruto or Kotoshogiku who obviously aren't having a good basho and would normally just roll over for a dominant yokozuna in that situation. Everybody wants to be the guy to end the streak now.

But we have what we have. We cant get Asa back to make things more competetive. And we cant make ozekis better, they are what they are - bunch of " i have to get my 8 " guys. All we can do is wait until some new challenger will arrive.It may take years. Hopeful signs Baruto gave during his ozeki-run , were obviously fools gold. Mirage is desert .He is not so good after all to challenge yokozuna.

If nothing else, I think Baruto can develop into Hakuho's Tochiazuma...let's not forget it's still only a year since he was merely a good lower sanyaku regular. For me the bigger disappointment is arguably Harumafuji.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Doitsuyama 1,192]

any lesser man than Hakuho would have lost against Baruto's onslaught today.

Well, not any, but Baruto sure showed a good fight. It reminded me a lot about Onokuni's rensho-breaking senshuraku bout against Chiyonofuji.

[Jejima 1,415]

Now Hak is sure he wins anyway. He knows he can afford 1, 2 , or even 3 fluke losses and still win tournament.What a huge advantage it is in mental department ! Knowing the fact that he wins anyway,all pressure is off and he can steamroll over the field like it was bunch of amateurs.

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. To me it seems the major change isn't even that Asashoryu is gone, it's that Hakuho has somehow decided he won't have any more fluke losses ever. Perhaps that's helped by Asashoryu's departure, but I think that development was already going on even earlier. Plenty of people don't like what they perceive as his hesitant tachiai (which of course is wildly different from Asashoryu's all-out style)...he seems content to start the bout in a potentially disadvantageous position because he knows he can recover from just about anything - as long as he makes sure not to lose in the first couple of seconds.

Wasn't it said of Futabayama that his style was to soak up his aite's initial tachi-ai? (Or did I dream that?) - Although that might have been necessary due to him being blind in one eye - and so more prone to a henka attack than most, if not a little wary at the start.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jejima