29 kyokai people admit to baseball gambling

[Kintamayama 45,504]

In what is quickly snowballing into a major scandal, 29 Kyokai people have come forward and admitted to have gambled on baseball games. 36 others have admitted to betting on golf, playing cards and mah-jong, making it a grand total of 65 people. The kyokai had promised to be lenient with those that came forward, but that has changed. They are turning the matter over to the police from here on and how they will deal with the rikishi depends on the results of the police inquiry. Starting off with how to deal with the lying Kotomitsuki, this story is likely to shake the foundations of Sumo, says a reporter.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Manekineko 200]

Woah, talk about shooting yourself in the foot. If they didn't promise clemency, they wouldn't have had such an obvious scandal, and they might have had an opportunity to discourage gambling among the ranks without as much repercussion. I would dearly like to be a (Japanese-talking) fly on the wall during the sessions that lead them to such decisions, my guess is there was some outside pressure on the Kyokai. Anti-yakuza and anti-gambling actions at the same time, the pus-letting that started with sacking of Wakanoho might finally have gathered momentum. I'm curious to see what will remain of sumo world as we know it by the time it ends.

[Asashosakari 19,648]

Anyone remember Takamifuji?

[sekihiryu 51]

Edited June 15, 2010 by sekihiryu

[Gusoyama 104]

Great photoshop. :-O

I have never understood the big deal about gambling, unless its on the sport you are playing in. Why the big deal, other than possible attachments to organized crime, which would be gone if it was legalized? I just don't get it. :(

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

I have never understood the big deal about gambling, unless its on the sport you are playing in. Why the big deal, other than possible attachments to organized crime, which would be gone if it was legalized? I just don't get it. :(

I'm with you. I have a hard time fathoming why this is such a huge ordeal. I can't tell if its the culture difference, or that the media really has a bone to pick.

[omoimori 0]

Gambling of all types creates opportunities for extortion. The situation Kotomitsuki has put himself in is obvious, but Kotomitsuki would be in serious trouble regardless of the sport or even the profession. If he were a teacher, banker, businessman, doctor, or even a factory-worker or farmer he would still be in a serious position.

Even a friendly game may not be everything it seems. Many small-time hustlers will set up crooked games and extend credit for even small stakes. (If you know anyone who is always wanting to get up a card game, then you probably know someone like this.) They know eventually the loser will want to break even and will propose to double-or-nothing, then double again and again. The amount can quickly go from insignificant to unpayable. The hustler can then offer to subtract a part of the amount for favors: running errands, washing a car, or (if employed by the same company) perhaps asked to cover for the hustler while he goes home. Little things like this may not always qualify as extortion, but they are a form of duress and are corrupting and may lead to further difficulties.

Rule of thumb: if anyone ever offers you a line of credit to gamble, regardless of how small, please know that you have just been invited to walk into a trap.

Now consider that Ozumo has a communal lifestyle with men and boys living together in a strict hierarchy. I don't know if any sekitori have allowed lower ranks into their games, but it is difficult to imagine a worse situation than 30-year-old men inviting teenagers to join a crooked card game, particularly when those men are intended as role models and may have supervisory authority over the youngsters, possibly even the prerogative of corporal punishment. If there is a lot of gambling going on in the heya, then I would think the Kyokai would want to find out what exactly is going on and put an end to it. There can be no "'friendly" card games among people in a society that practices extreme inequality among its members.

[Takamizawa 0]

Rule of thumb: if anyone ever offers you a line of credit to gamble, regardless of how small, please know that you have just been invited to walk into a trap.

There can be no "'friendly" card games among people in a society that practices extreme inequality among its members.

These are both very harsh generalizing statements. I feel like card games need a bit of a defense in this case, as your post paints gambling on card games in a very negative light. I have personally been extended credit from both friends and first time acquaintances for poker nights in my youth, and have never been "trapped" in any way. Obviously the situation you described is one danger of taking credit from a stranger, but speaking for gambling on cards, aside from professionals, most all people care more about the fun involved in playing cards rather than winning money from others. With inner-circle card games, the money is just there so that people actually try rather than just shoving "all in" or folding every hand. Card games are a simple, easy, and fun way to pass time when there is little to entertain oneself with (for example rikishi on jungyo). This sort of situation should really be no harm no foul; there are no yakuza extorting money from rikishi simply playing cards or mahjong. Saying if "anyone ever" offers you credit, it's a trap -- this is really not the case, but certainly one should be wary of who they take credit from, so I get what you're saying.

As for friendly games between rikishi, this is ceratinly not an impossibility. Just because sekitori and lower ranked guys live such vastly unequal lives doesn't mean that there is necessarily any automatic bias in the sekitori's favor when it comes to intra-sumo gambling. Certainly the situation you described is one possibility for an unfriendly game where older rikishi take advantage of new recruits and younger guys, but this alone cannot disallow the possibility of friendly games. Just look at Kotomitsuki getting his baseball gambling ties through some lower ranked rikishi, who was clearly more in the "know" about gambling and the underworld then our poor ozeki. Who says that there aren't makushita rikishi who are far more skilled/knowledgable about card games? One's capabilities in card games has little to do with their skill on the dohyo.. There is just as much risk for a skilled younger kid to potentially hustle a sekitori. Additionally, this argument is sorta void when it comes to card games between similar ranked rikishi. For example, on jungyo a bunch of makuuchi guys might get together for a friendly game, and nothing about their ranks should really play a factor in them simply playing for fun. The point that most people don't care passionately about money when it comes to card games is also relevant, as no matter who is involved, as long as you aren't a professional poker/blackjack/whatever player, having a good time usually comes first.

In fact, I'd go far enough to say that intra-sumo gambling is probably much safer, since most rikishi tend to at least know sometime of each other, even if it is just on the dohyo. This is far better than walking into a card game with complete strangers. For me, I don't give two damns about rikishi gambling -- illegal or not. There are definitely dangers, and you highlighted some of them well, but to seemingly condemn the entire practice based on some risks is a bit too much for me.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Takamizawa

[Naganoyama 5,945]

What is the logic behind it being worse to gamble on baseball than on golf, say?

[Asashosakari 19,648]

What is the logic behind it being worse to gamble on baseball than on golf, say?

I don't think there's any substantive difference between the two, it's just that (I assume) gambling on baseball is more popular because baseball itself is more popular, so the yakuza is more deeply involved and more "professional" about it. I wouldn't be surprised to see somebody busted for illegally betting on something else before this is over, though.

[Kintamayama 45,504]

And now, Michinoku Oyakata, our very own guidance councilor, has admitted in writing to betting on golf. He is the guy publicly urging the police to get on with the inquiries.

[Kintamayama 45,504]

Toyonoshima's nobori (banner with his name on it) was torn down today in Nagoya at the Tokitsukaze lodgings. Three other nobori were slightly damaged, but his (5.5 meter height and 1 meter width)was totally brought down.

Rip Torn:

Edited June 27, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Jonosuke 28]

What is the logic behind it being worse to gamble on baseball than on golf, say?

Baseball gambling is known to be one of huge revenue sources for Yakuza.

One can gamble on horse racing or pachinko or even mah-jong but either it's a legit or between friends. Despite the amount of money being bet by Kotomitsuki and others, they had no idea that yakuza was behind baseball gambling. Remember the world of rikishi is all its own, closed society, they really had no idea and no common sense is common sense in the world.

[Fay 1,677]

What is the logic behind it being worse to gamble on baseball than on golf, say?

Baseball gambling is known to be one of huge revenue sources for Yakuza.

One can gamble on horse racing or pachinko or even mah-jong but either it's a legit or between friends. Despite the amount of money being bet by Kotomitsuki and others, they had no idea that yakuza was behind baseball gambling. Remember the world of rikishi is all its own, closed society, they really had no idea and no common sense is common sense in the world.

Oh come on, most of these guys went to university and weren't in this "close society". The stable masters know, that it's close to Yakuza and even one of my favourite Sandanme wrestler told me so (before the scandal).

[Jonosuke 28]

Not most of these guys went to university but even if they have gone to a university, Kotomitsuki and company never ventured outside their sumo club and throughout their academic life, they spent more hours on dohyo than classroom.

As for the betters knew yakuza connection or not, if they have known then they are in a bigger mess than they are now as all, not most, told the committee members that they had not known there was yakuza behind the gambling. If they knew, it means they told white lie to the committee members.

Aside from betting huge amounts, the reason Kotomitsuki's sumo career is over is because he told a lie initially that he did not know about baseball gambling to Kyokai investigators. He deserves every punishment and he knows it.

[Kintamayama 45,504]

If they knew, it means they told white lie to the committee members.

As sad as this is, I find it extremely hard to believe. We just had Kise close shop because of his underworld relationships. I'm pretty sure they all lied through their teeth, as underworld connections will be difficult to prove, unless some underworld guy comes forward and admits to it. That's why Kotomitsuki came clean-someone had proof of what he denied and came forward with it. He would never have changed his story unless he knew the feces were about to hit the air-conditioning.

[Asashosakari 19,648]

If they knew, it means they told white lie to the committee members.

As sad as this is, I find it extremely hard to believe. We just had Kise close shop because of his underworld relationships. I'm pretty sure they all lied through their teeth, as underworld connections will be difficult to prove, unless some underworld guy comes forward and admits to it.

Exactly. It's not like the rikishi had "Ye Olde Mafia Betting Shoppe" show up on their cell-phone displays when they contacted their bookies. Nobody knows they're dealing with gangsters unless their contact has specifically admitted it to them (which I assume the yakuza footsoldiers won't be doing with any regularity), but of course they must have had an idea that this was the case, sheltered life or not. So, sure, it's probably factually true that they didn't know, and this could become important if any of this progresses to a criminal investigation where the burden of proof is higher, but I doubt the Special Committee cares to split hairs like that. After all, at a minimum the three external directors/supervisors on the committee are sumo insiders and totally aware of how things work.

And yeah, the "I didn't know the guy had yakuza affiliations" excuse didn't do much for Kise, either. At most it made the difference between losing his stable and getting thrown out completely, and I'm guessing that's the type of punishment "reduction" some of the gamblers will get out of their professed ignorance as well, nothing more.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,504]

And yeah, the "I didn't know the guy had yakuza affiliations" excuse didn't do much for Kise, either. At most it made the difference between losing his stable and getting thrown out completely, and I'm guessing that's the type of punishment "reduction" some of the gamblers will get out of their professed ignorance as well, nothing more.

AFAIK, there is no place in the world where illegal gambling (or illegal anything..) is run by "good people". Sure, the face is of your friendly tokoyama, but in the backroom where things are actually run, people with missing pinkies, full body tattoos (or the equivalent) are running the show. We who sometimes partake in any illegality love to ignore that, but we all know they are omnipotently there.

[Jonosuke 28]

Just so that you know that the committee let the four guys off the hook as the members were convinced the four rikishi were doing the baseball gambling only among themselves, that's the reason you do not see some names that were initially announced as being involved.

The handicaps were all done by go-between and the money only exchanged between the rikishi and go-between. Whether the rikishi suspected yakuza was taking their money, all of them maintained that they thought they were doing it all within the friendly confines of Ozumo world. The committee decided to believe them but obviously mileage varies here and elsewhere.

[kame 0]

AFAIK, there is no place in the world where illegal gambling (or illegal anything..) is run by "good people". Sure, the face is of your friendly tokoyama, but in the backroom where things are actually run, people with missing pinkies, full body tattoos (or the equivalent) are running the show. We who sometimes partake in any illegality love to ignore that, but we all know they are omnipotently there.

Yup. Open your eyes, people, of course they knew yakuza had to be involved at some point down the chain. Gambling is one of the main historical yakuza trades (specially on hanafuda, dice, baseball), and millions were being gambled, this is widely known in Japan. AFAIK, rikishi have keitai, play video games, have free access to the net, etc.

[Asashosakari 19,648]

AFAIK, rikishi have keitai, play video games, have free access to the net, etc.

And you can bet (no pun intended) that the more "traditional" shishos who aren't so free-giving with modern amenities (in the lower ranks particularly) now have something to seize upon with this scandal.