New committee established to deal with gamblers

[ilovesumo 12]

I think there is a conspiracy going on to get all Takanohana oyakata supporters....Next up should be Magaki but then he has been in enough troubles in the past at least but they should get the new Futagoyama as well.

Possible....Thought about that as well...in the current situation, this could actually work. Some more innuendos and the reputation goes down down down...Nobody knows what's true and what's fake, most won't be found out.

But if they do so, this is really frustrating cause they do not realize the real important facts - they all need to join forces and fight for Sumo to live on. And this is what Taka wants, right?

I hope his heart and soul are strong enough.

[Fay 1,677]

Example:

I HATE German folk music,

Oh come on ... You really can't compare some playback "scandals" with what is going on in the Kyokai. If the music scene in Germany would have ties to the underworld, the mafia, would constantly break the law, haze their singers I hope everybody would stand up.

No witch hunt is necessary, but comments like "enough is enough" or "it's the same in any company in Japan or in the world" is the wrong signal. When there is no pressure from nothing will change and after some months nobody talks about it any longer.

[ilovesumo 12]

Don't hate much else and I learned that almost anything can be compared as long as there are simple paralleles in a seminar, one guy compared the NATO with an alliance of "States" or "Polis" at the Mediterranean Sea -area before Christ...

(maybe this one)

Wrong signal? Then, what else would help them during this time of the unnessesary but ongoing witch hunt? And I think those tabloids are not interested to change anything for the better- what would they write about then?

[Fay 1,677]

Don't hate much else and I learned that almost anything can be compared as long as there are simple paralleles in a seminar, one guy compared the NATO with an alliance of "States" or "Polis" at the Mediterranean Sea -area before Christ...

(maybe this one)

well this comparision makes much more sense than playback and yakuza

How do you know all the journalists and people who are critizising the kyokai don't want things to be changed for better and are only interested in selling their papers? To call for investigations in public is the only way to stimulate the kyokai to do at least somewhat.

[Kotoviki 16]

it seems the only way to satisfy the non sumo fans!

;-) .... them

And I really resent being lumped in with non sumo fans. Disagree with me all you want, but don't claim to know what I don't like.

Nobody said you weren't a sumo fan.

I'm talking about the loud mouths in Japan who complained that they didn't want tv coverage or that the basho should be cancelled when interviewed and pretty sure none of them watch it anyway.

Sumo is not so popular. I work in an elementary school, a jhs, 5 high schools, a university.... I can't find 2 dozen who like sumo that much. Amazingly the elementary kids do but I think because Hamaeiko's nephew goes to that school and also Takakiho graduated from my school. If not for that, probably not so much....

Maybe there aren't enough sumo fans in Japan to keep the sport alive, maybe it should end because such a small percentage of JAPANESE know much or care. Most Japanese coworkers know only yokozuna.... ozeki... some didn't even know Baruto until recently.

They are becoming more interested after the scandal. People try to talk to me about Sumo because they know how much I love it but they aren't watching it on tv, not regularly.

I'm just saying that cancelling one basho or two basho is NOT going to fix all the problems. It will more than likely make the number of fans decrease as they will move on to other hobbies. Some rikishi may quit to get different jobs, maybe nobody will join for a year.

Anyone who knows me knows I want sumo but I'm just saying... if it is that bad then shut it down and see if someone wants to come in and take it over as a private thing like K-1.

[Peterao 3]

Anyone who knows me knows I want sumo but I'm just saying... if it is that bad then shut it down and see if someone wants to come in and take it over as a private thing like K-1.

Yours is a depressing and defeatist argument: the problems with sumo are too difficult to fix, so they must be ignored or sumo must be shut down altogether.

I think that sumo can be fixed. But that fix must be brought about by getting to the root of all problems that exist, publicizing them, and building a more open system that can be examined from the outside. All three parts are critical, but that last one especially so. If we had that, then we wouldn't need any additional punishments; heck, if the didn't have any criminal charges against them, I wouldn't even mind bringing Otake and Kotomitsuki back into the fold.

[Kotoviki 16]

Anyone who knows me knows I want sumo but I'm just saying... if it is that bad then shut it down and see if someone wants to come in and take it over as a private thing like K-1.

Yours is a depressing and defeatist argument: the problems with sumo are too difficult to fix, so they must be ignored or sumo must be shut down altogether.

I think that sumo can be fixed. But that fix must be brought about by getting to the root of all problems that exist, publicizing them, and building a more open system that can be examined from the outside. All three parts are critical, but that last one especially so. If we had that, then we wouldn't need any additional punishments; heck, if the didn't have any criminal charges against them, I wouldn't even mind bringing Otake and Kotomitsuki back into the fold.

How long do you think this will take with now more oyakata implicated with scandal?? There aren't even enough oyakata left to do shimpan... today Kumegawa took tickets in the morning ran to do shimpan then back to tickets. With Matsugane back in Tokyo now too.

Will it be resolved in a week? a month, by the end of the year?

The ROOT of the problem is obviously deeper than it seems as every day one more or two more are implicated. Where will it end? after there are no more oyakata left and then what? who runs the heya? who trains the rikishi?

Who rented this heya lodgings from whom? Who had dinner with this yakuza member at a large dinner party where the oyakata was a guest but did not do the inviting?

Does anyone know how hard it is to get remote heya lodgings? I do not know about Fukuoka but in Nagoya and Osaka it is not easy. Many heya are over 1 hour or 1.5 hours drive/train/taxi. You need space to build a dohyo and house a big heya of rikishi. How thankful if they can even find a place.. Who is to say what company may have ties to yakuza when the oyakata are thankful enough to have a place. In Osaka a heya was housed at a steel factory. A nice old lady taking care of the boys... but from what I hear from other Japanese friends is that steel factories like construction companies where started by the yakuza so.... since I know they are still involved in the construction business, I think it is remotely possible to say they may be in the steel business.

The chief of police in Nagoya (whose son is a rikishi) told me today that until recently there were yakuza in the police department.

What I'm saying is either to get to the root they have to shut it all down and start over or take a break for whatever time until it is settled and by then all the rikishi may have gone on to other jobs or school... it is impossible for rikishi to train in this environment, they don't know when their oyakata is arrested or implicated or under house arrest or what? Oyakata can't concentrate on training when they don't know the same.

I'd like to know what you think about how long this should take, what should happen to sumo during that time... ???

[Kotoviki 16]

As I mentioned... Construction companies were started by the yakuza which means.....

Sakaigawa

The construction company that provided a facility for sumo stable Sakaigawa to use for lodging during every year's Nagoya sumo tournament is run by a man who once had ties to organized crime, it was learned on July 23.

Tamari tickets

83-year-old former president of a construction firm in Tokyo's Setagaya Ward

Apparently the Kyokai and all members should also probably not have any construction done ever again... no new heya, no new kokugikan..

Should I mention that the current Kokugikan was built by a famous construction company that was originally started by the yakuza as well?

[Asashosakari 19,651]

And the guilt-by-association maelstrom reaches the next phase. Via Hokkaiko on the German forum:

http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/23_16.html

Tokyo police investigating how a gangster got a special ringside seat at the grand sumo tournament in May say the ticket belonged to a former staff member of a sumo stable.

Police say the ticket belonged to a 72-year-old former member of the Kasugano stable. He used to be a stable staff called "yobidashi," in charge of announcing the names of wrestlers before bouts.

A senior member of a gang affiliated with the Sumiyoshi-kai crime syndicate sat ringside during the May tournament in Tokyo. These seats are usually reserved for financial supporters of the Sumo Association.

Police say the former bout caller gave the ticket to an acquaintance who chairs a boxing gym, who then passed it to the president of a Tokyo construction firm. How it finally ended up in the gangster's hands is unclear.

Police also say that a member of an external panel investigating sumo's connections with the underworld, Hirosuke Yamaguchi, serves as an advisor to the boxing gym.

Yamaguchi said he didn't know about the involvement of the boxing gym's president.

Edit: Oh, I see that's also part of the Mainichi story in Kotoviki's second link.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,518]

"The article also links Hiroyoshi Murayama, who is the acting managing director of the Japan Sumo Association, to general contractor Suruga Corporation. "

Article

Double post, but yes..

[Kintamayama 45,518]

A new "mini-story" is quietly brewing. Musashigawa is out until after senshuraku, when he should be returning to his post. As he is said to be ill and is not getting better at this point, Tempriji is hinting he will continue to head the Kyokai.

No story. Dewanoumi will take over as acting rijicho from the 26th and will participate in the YDC meeting on that day as chairman, it has been decided today at the rijikai. Musashigawa is slated to be back in August, and till then will be kyujo.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Peterao 3]

Anyone who knows me knows I want sumo but I'm just saying... if it is that bad then shut it down and see if someone wants to come in and take it over as a private thing like K-1.

Yours is a depressing and defeatist argument: the problems with sumo are too difficult to fix, so they must be ignored or sumo must be shut down altogether.

I think that sumo can be fixed. But that fix must be brought about by getting to the root of all problems that exist, publicizing them, and building a more open system that can be examined from the outside. All three parts are critical, but that last one especially so. If we had that, then we wouldn't need any additional punishments; heck, if the didn't have any criminal charges against them, I wouldn't even mind bringing Otake and Kotomitsuki back into the fold.

How long do you think this will take with now more oyakata implicated with scandal?? There aren't even enough oyakata left to do shimpan... today Kumegawa took tickets in the morning ran to do shimpan then back to tickets. With Matsugane back in Tokyo now too.

Will it be resolved in a week? a month, by the end of the year?

Without knowing the root or the extent of the problem, as you admit, how is anybody supposed to know how long it will take? A month, a year, ten years? However long it takes. I do know that setting a time limit, like the rushed "investigation" that was done as a front to allow the Nagoya basho to go on, is a bad idea, as it will simply allow people to stall to conclusion without fixing anything.

I recommend an investigation with no time limit without reservation because I believe that the world of Ozumo will most certainly die if they don't. In my mind, it is better to undergo radical treatment that might cure the patient, but might also kill it, than to do nothing and let the patient die a slow, agonizing death.

This is why I cannot understand the "sumo fan" way of thinking, which seems to me to be advocating letting Nero fiddle while Rome burns.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Peterao

[ilovesumo 12]

well this comparision makes much more sense than playback and yakuza

How do you know all the journalists and people who are critizising the kyokai don't want things to be changed for better and are only interested in selling their papers? To call for investigations in public is the only way to stimulate the kyokai to do at least somewhat.

The comparison was unpopular cultural stuff and unpopular cultural stuff.

Who ever used "all the journalists" or "each paper"?

[Kotoviki 16]

Anyone who knows me knows I want sumo but I'm just saying... if it is that bad then shut it down and see if someone wants to come in and take it over as a private thing like K-1.

Yours is a depressing and defeatist argument: the problems with sumo are too difficult to fix, so they must be ignored or sumo must be shut down altogether.

I think that sumo can be fixed. But that fix must be brought about by getting to the root of all problems that exist, publicizing them, and building a more open system that can be examined from the outside. All three parts are critical, but that last one especially so. If we had that, then we wouldn't need any additional punishments; heck, if the didn't have any criminal charges against them, I wouldn't even mind bringing Otake and Kotomitsuki back into the fold.

How long do you think this will take with now more oyakata implicated with scandal?? There aren't even enough oyakata left to do shimpan... today Kumegawa took tickets in the morning ran to do shimpan then back to tickets. With Matsugane back in Tokyo now too.

Will it be resolved in a week? a month, by the end of the year?

Without knowing the root or the extent of the problem, as you admit, how is anybody supposed to know how long it will take? A month, a year, ten years? However long it takes. I do know that setting a time limit, like the rushed "investigation" that was done as a front to allow the Nagoya basho to go on, is a bad idea, as it will simply allow people to stall to conclusion without fixing anything.

I recommend an investigation with no time limit without reservation because I believe that the world of Ozumo will most certainly die if they don't. In my mind, it is better to undergo radical treatment that might cure the patient, but might also kill it, than to do nothing and let the patient die a slow, agonizing death.

This is why I cannot understand the "sumo fan" way of thinking, which seems to me to be advocating letting Nero fiddle while Rome burns.

I guess the sumo fans do not want to lose the sport because it is so important to them!

In order to keep running basho then investigations will be rushed, the only way to conduct thorough investigations is to cancel basho until the investigations are finished.

That could mean no basho for how many times, once, twice, three times... half a year without a basho. No way any rikishi can train and keep momentum without competition, then the sport will die.

Maybe sumo fans are not advocating Nero fiddle while Rome burns but thinking that there are only two alternatives and one may be a quick death of sumo! ;-)

[Orion 431]

I'd like to know what you think about how long this should take, what should happen to sumo during that time... ???

IMNSHO,

I believe that this thing is finally reaching the level of the purely ridiculous, when everybody still left reading the latest names and the latest scandals is going to say, "Enough already!" (I mean, when a member of the outside commission is ousted for yakuza connections, what else is there to say??)

Remember the swine flu panic? (No, I bet you don't -- nobody wants to think about the government's present attempt to buy back millions of unwanted injections that were left on the shelves when joe public abruptly realised that all the fuss about masks etc just wasn't justified, and it was better to go on as usual and take one's chance). This is another of those things that has to be allowed to run its course. Afterwards the debris will be swept away (sorry, Kotomitsuki and assorted oyakata) and life will resume (plus a few extra cautions). I was at a huge meeting today of the 15th International Conference for Women in Business and at the final networking party this opinion flourished, at least among the Japanese women who talked to me (and there was only a handful of foreign women, so the sample was not exactly skewed).

Orion

[Peterao 3]

I'd like to know what you think about how long this should take, what should happen to sumo during that time... ???

IMNSHO,

I believe that this thing is finally reaching the level of the purely ridiculous, when everybody still left reading the latest names and the latest scandals is going to say, "Enough already!" (I mean, when a member of the outside commission is ousted for yakuza connections, what else is there to say??)

By that logic, every company that is caught doing a bad thing should just keep pumping bad things out, until people get sick of the bad things, say "Enough already!", and just forget about all of them.

(actually, that strategy would explain some of the actions taken by some other companies in the past...)

[Kotoviki 16]

I'd like to know what you think about how long this should take, what should happen to sumo during that time... ???

IMNSHO,

I believe that this thing is finally reaching the level of the purely ridiculous, when everybody still left reading the latest names and the latest scandals is going to say, "Enough already!" (I mean, when a member of the outside commission is ousted for yakuza connections, what else is there to say??)

By that logic, every company that is caught doing a bad thing should just keep pumping bad things out, until people get sick of the bad things, say "Enough already!", and just forget about all of them.

(actually, that strategy would explain some of the actions taken by some other companies in the past...)

I'm not sure what is left to say, I'm curious too how Doreen will think about what I write as I know she has been in this country long enough to be Japanese herself and yet still be a foreigner.

I don't believe I or Doreen are saying that every company caught doing something bad just keeps on going til people forget about it. There are degrees of bad of course.

I'm in my 23 year in Japan living here more than half my life now. I have seen (and I will see) a lot of things I like and a lot of things I don't like. Things I've seen from the inside of schools and companies and from outside in every day life.

What is happening in sumo is obviously more of a big deal to people who don't like sumo and to some people who do like sumo than to people who love sumo and want to see the sport continue. Maybe the sport needs to be changed to a non government regulated sport and become private so that micromanagement from the outside isn't necessary? I don't know about that.

Since the Yakuza are entwined everywhere then at this point I say it is the job of the police to get them arrested and out of circulation. Who rents this building from who, who bought that land from who, who had dinner at a party who had also some yakuza in attendance.... maybe the yakuza need to wear signs or have their foreheads branded so the oyakata know who to avoid.

I agree the gambling was illegal, it is illegal to gamble on baseball in Japan, it is the job of the police to arrest or fine any rikishi they wish based on it being illegal. So be it, that is the law. I respect the law. I broke the law, I was speeding coming back from Osaka basho, I paid my 40,000 yen fine, I will lose my precious gold license when it is time to renew it and if I break this law again I will lose my license if it is in the next 6 months.

Rikishi who gamble take a chance on getting caught breaking the law, but it is their choice to make just as it was my choice to speed. I say again that NO RIKISHI involved in the gambling was trying to lose money to fund the yakuza. If I decide to gamble on baseball tomorrow it will be because I think I can win. Do I think my money is funding the yakuza? maybe I know it now but I didn't know it before. I want to win, isn't that taking money away from the yakuza?

Should the kyokai shut down because less than 10% of all rikishi were gambling? No, it should not.

Rikishi are human beings, at least last time I looked, if they want to gamble, they may gamble, if they get caught they may lose their job or go to jail... if they break any law they may get caught and they may go to jail. The kyokai can not control every action of every rikishi just as no company can control the outside actions of all employees, parents can not control what their children do all the time. All we can do is educate people on what is wrong and what isn't. Rules can be made for rikishi as they are employees of the kyokai...

No gambling on baseball, no gambling on poker, no betting on golf, no smoking dope, no fights with strangers.... if you do these things you will lose your job... end of story.

Doreen and I are not saying we think all illegal things are ok or all bad things businesses do are ok. But I don't see how to close down every construction company, every steel company, every..... that has any ties to yakuza. I don't see how oyakata can know who a yakuza member is when he shows up at some dinner or party and then run away.

I choose to live here, I do not want to go back to the USA and have no plans to do so unless I'm forced. But since I'm a Japanese resident I can live as any Japanese including being homeless and not be kicked out of the country so chances are I'm staying. Whether I like everything that happens in Japanese society is beside the point. If I don't like it and it bothers me too much I can leave this country at any time I wish! I could go back to the USA like my mother wants where life is easier, costs are lower, etc..

I also choose to watch sumo and be a part of the sumo world. If I don't like that, can't stand that what people in the kyokai are doing wrong then I can choose not to watch sumo.

Whatever is going on is obviously not enough to bother me to quit watching sumo or move away from Japan.

I'm just saying sumo fan or not those who can not stand it any longer should just move on to another hobby.

For me there are more disturbing things going on like elementary school teachers molesting 8 year old girls, old people who are not tested on driving skills who get disoriented and plow down a group of people on a sidewalk killing them.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

A new "mini-story" is quietly brewing. Musashigawa is out until after senshuraku, when he should be returning to his post. As he is said to be ill and is not getting better at this point, Tempriji is hinting he will continue to head the Kyokai.

No story. Dewanoumi will take over as acting rijicho from the 26th and will participate in the YDC meeting on that day as chairman, it has been decided today at the rijikai. Musashigawa is slated to be back in August, and till then will be kyujo.

And changed again in today's riji meeting. Murayama will keep going until Musashigawa is well again.

Edit: Apparently decided in unanimous fashion, too.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Murayama is certainly better at giving the rijicho's address to the audience on shonichi and senshuraku. Here's hoping he's as effective in other duties...

[Asashosakari 19,651]

Yep, gets results, too:

Indeed he will be out and about some more; reportedly scheduled for tomorrow morning is a trip to Fukuoka to enlist the prefectural police force in similarly stringent anti-gang measures for Kyushu basho as are currently employed in Nagoya.

Following the lead set by their Aichi equivalents, Fukuoka prefectural police are saying that they will be stationing some 10 members at the Kokusai Center during Kyushu basho.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,651]

Following up on the brouhaha about Matsugane's Osaka and Sakaigawa's Nagoya lodgings the Kyokai has decided to investigate all non-Tokyo lodging arrangements and has reportedly sent out questionnaires to all stables inquiring about owners, contracts etc.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ilovesumo 12]

This looks like a "confess it now and the press cannot piss us off anymore"

[jakking 0]

If the association -- tight or light -- with yakuza is not affecting the sport as a sport, who cares? Yakuza are a police problem, not something that a sports assoc should have to turn themselves inside out for. We know that yakuza are involved in all sorts of industries. Are they closed down? Is all construction at a standstill? Are movies still being made? Are banks still open? This is just madness! If the yakuza are causing bouts to be thrown, step on them. Otherwise, let's get on with ozumo!

[Fay 1,677]

If the association -- tight or light -- with yakuza is not affecting the sport as a sport, who cares? Yakuza are a police problem, not something that a sports assoc should have to turn themselves inside out for. We know that yakuza are involved in all sorts of industries. Are they closed down? Is all construction at a standstill? Are movies still being made? Are banks still open? This is just madness! If the yakuza are causing bouts to be thrown, step on them. Otherwise, let's get on with ozumo!

Exactly the position which keeps criminal organizations alive, not my problem, who cares ...

[Toonoryu 1]

If the association -- tight or light -- with yakuza is not affecting the sport as a sport, who cares? Yakuza are a police problem, not something that a sports assoc should have to turn themselves inside out for. We know that yakuza are involved in all sorts of industries. Are they closed down? Is all construction at a standstill? Are movies still being made? Are banks still open? This is just madness! If the yakuza are causing bouts to be thrown, step on them. Otherwise, let's get on with ozumo!

Exactly the position which keeps criminal organizations alive, not my problem, who cares ...

Besides, correct me if i'm wrong, but Ozumo is watched with a closer look in such matters because it is a matter of national pride as kokugi, but moreover because of its tax-free status. People don't like to see their tax money funding the criminal organisations, in any country...