Baseball gambling aftermath - New reform committee

[Kintamayama 45,086]

I think most of us would like to see some sort of change. I'm starting this off with what I wrote somewhere else- I'd like to see a rotation of non-Tokyo basho venues, as the current ones seem to be having trouble maintaining a 50% attendance during weakdays (no typo). I know it's going to be difficult uprooting chayas and old habits and all that, but so what? I'd also like to see some sort of rehabilitation period of grace for injured rikishi (not the kosho stuff, something else, more creative).

Edited February 14, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Asojima 2,874]

A kadoban revision - Once an Ozeki goes kadoban, he remains kadoban until he attains 10 wins in a following basho. An alternative would be that an Ozeki who fails to attain 10 wins goes kadoban. In either case, a kadoban Ozeki would only need 8 wins to avoid demotion. This would put some starch in the late basho Ozeki matchups.

[Asojima 2,874]

I'd also like to see some sort of rehabilitation period of grace for injured rikishi (not the kosho stuff, something else, more creative).

Reinstitute the concept of kosho, but treat a kosho record as 5-10 / 2-5 ( or 6-9 /3-4). A kadoban Ozeki who goes kosho would be given a one basho break, but would require double digit wins in the following basho to avoid demotion.

[ilovesumo 12]

1 Social reform:

- Rikishi who only finished middle school are sent to high school like in Nakamura Beya. Those who cannot qualify for high school go on a job training IN the Sumo School, which becomes a real school now. If needed, they can repeat lessons they had problems with during their formal education - like writing and reading Kanji. (Those who finished high school can also go on here) They can qualify as certificated cooks etc.

- Retired Rikishi still get medical assistance from the NSK. They pay for the insulin for example...

- A job center will be established - to find real jobs for retired rikishi, so no one has to turn Yakuza anymore.

- All rikishi get a real salary, still depends on rank but is enough to send something home to the single mum or save it for later.

- Yobidashi, Gyouji etc. get a better position and more salary. They cannot do much to climb up the ranks, they cannot fight for more respect or money, so they should be respected as they are.

The Ministry often claimed, that the NSK makes too much money. Easy to give it to the boys.

2 Personal freedom reform:

-rikishi turning 30 are allowed to have a family and live outside the heya, even if they are no Sekitori - if earning a salary, no problem.

- reduced duties as Tsukebito (matter of time) in favour of more personal freedom

(I happened to go out with a group of friends (Sekitori and their friendly Toriteki)... one Sekitori had his Tsukebito with him - and this poor boy's girlfriend as well. The Sekitori seated them some tables away and paid for their date as well......kinda freaky situation...)

- more respect for the youngsters. I read a lot about Sumodou, but youth of today cannot live it anymore I fear. They want to be respected as a personality.

3 Inner Reforms

- No more Ichimons needed. Some Oyakata are friends with each other, some Heya are geographically close to each other.

Bonds will exist, no matter what.

- The elections will count each and every NSK-individual's vote- something democratic...

- New Oyakata gotta visit a seminar and qualify as trainers. It's mostly the aspect of dealing with teenagers in the right way. There are many boys like "the second Chiyotaikai" - from a troubled background. Their percentage rose cause less boys from a normal background with good chances for a good life outside of sumo wanna join. Those boys need extra attention - and the right kind of. Discipline and nothing else cannot be enough...

Kabu shouldn't depend on ranks. If there is a (as a teacher qualified) Ex-Makushita, maybe a long-time Heyagashira, who can get the money together - why not? Ok,Ok, maybe a Jonidan-Oyakata wouldn't look that good, so Makushita could be the border. I want Oyakata who care for Sumo and their boys, not this "I'll let the Heya-manager watch over the keiko"-type...

- money from kouenkai etc. goes to an account and can be taxed - at least no scandals of that kind, also helps to avoid that rikishi have to go out with whatsoever bigwig in the "male geisha"-style... AND - it means YAKUZA stay out as big spenders.

That's it for now. Don't wanna fill the whole first page.

Edited July 4, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Kintamayama 45,086]

1 Social reform:

- Rikishi who only finished middle school are sent to high school like in Nakamura Beya etc..

I think this was thought out really well. I suggest Viki (or ILS herself) privately translates this and passes it on to her friends in high places. I think almost every single point is doable. Well done. (I am not worthy...)

Edited July 4, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Kotoviki 16]

1 Social reform:

- Rikishi who only finished middle school are sent to high school like in Nakamura Beya etc..

I think this was thought out really well. I suggest Viki (or ILS herself) privately translates this and passes it on to her friends in high places. I think almost every single point is doable. Well done. (I am not worthy...)

There are actually quite a few boys going to high school through correspondence school. Many more than I ever knew about. Almost all of Azumazeki beya is going to school...

It is promoted and it is an option... the problem is that the reason many boys joined sumo (I personally know three mothers who told me this frankly) was because they did not want to go to high school. Forcing them to go to high school could mean they don't bother to join sumo. They are better off in sumo without high school than pumping gas without high school in my opinion.

I've talked a lot with Jesse back when he was Azumazeki oyakata and he told me many oyakata encourage the boys to do the correspondence courses. Jesse's wife helps the boys with homework.. and he thanked me for helping them with English indirectly as all the boys English scores went up after becoming friends with me.

[ilovesumo 12]

There are actually quite a few boys going to high school through correspondence school. Many more than I ever knew about. Almost all of Azumazeki beya is going to school...

It is promoted and it is an option... the problem is that the reason many boys joined sumo (I personally know three mothers who told me this frankly) was because they did not want to go to high school. Forcing them to go to high school could mean they don't bother to join sumo. They are better off in sumo without high school than pumping gas without high school in my opinion.

I've talked a lot with Jesse back when he was Azumazeki oyakata and he told me many oyakata encourage the boys to do the correspondence courses. Jesse's wife helps the boys with homework.. and he thanked me for helping them with English indirectly as all the boys English scores went up after becoming friends with me.

My Poll gave me a low quota of Rikishi who currently visit a high school beside Sumo. (Indeed, Azumazeki and Nakamura, most other heya's rikishi marked NO)

Not enough - while 60% only have a middle school education.

Yes, there are some great people who do care a lot, but in one heya I got handwritten comments like "It's not possible to do anything beside Sumo" - that sux. Why the heck not? It is. And it is a shame that some boys secretly get some education in their spare time, cause the Oyakata wouldn't allow nor finance it.

The quota of rikishi who liked school and would have visited a college is high! Yes, about one third said they wanted to end their formal education, but the majority didn't. And those boys, if they do not make it a Sekitori, made a big mistake in joining........-just compared to the possibilities if they would have followed the path of formal education.

Now that High School is for free (no more school fee since July), those boys who had financial reasons not to go to High School will for sure go there and don't join a heya.

Edited July 4, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Asashosakari 19,306]

I'd like to see a rotation of non-Tokyo basho venues, as the current ones seem to be having trouble maintaining a 50% attendance during weakdays (no typo). I know it's going to be difficult uprooting chayas and old habits and all that, but so what?

The (AFAICT not just one, but "the") Nagoya chaya is toast now anyway, and as Doreen has mentioned the same already happened to Fukuoka a while ago, so there's not much that stands in the way in theory. Well, I'd kinda like to keep Osaka as a nod to its history as the second major place of origin of the Kyokai... Other than that I agree wholeheartedly, though. IMHO jungyo are kind of a relict from the days when Japan was much less urbanized, and I don't think they provide much of a draw to today's urban centers. Rotating hon-basho through them might shake things up in a positive way.

I'd also like to see some sort of rehabilitation period of grace for injured rikishi (not the kosho stuff, something else, more creative).

Reinstitute the concept of kosho, but treat a kosho record as 5-10 / 2-5 ( or 6-9 /3-4).

I think they kinda did something like that in the 1950s with the initial basho, probably decided by the seat of their pants instead of a fixed guideline...for some years mid-basho absences appear be treated as partially wins and partially losses, e.g. 3-6-6 wouldn't be equivalent to 3-12 like today, but something like 3(+2) wins and 6(+4) losses. I actually wouldn't mind seeing something like that...

That trivia aside, for a comprehensive revision of the injury system I'd like to see authority transferred to an independent medical board of some type. Give rikishi as much time to recuperate from serious injuries as that board deems necessary; whether that's combined with a full kosho rule (no demotions at all while out injured) or some type of limited demotion system as in Asojima's suggestion is of lower priority to me.

In the early days of the kosho rule (till 1980 or so) kosho-absent rikishi didn't even block a spot from being taken by another rikishi, they just received a haridashi version of their rank, like Kotokaze here in Kyushu 1980, and were then sorted back into the regular banzuke after their return. That's a much fairer solution than the post-1980 version, and IMO would be perfectly compatible with a kosho system that is supervised by an outside board.

Edit: Ditto Kinta's accolades for ilovesumo's post. (I am not worthy...)

Edited July 4, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,306]

Kabu shouldn't depend on ranks. If there is a (as a teacher qualified) Ex-Makushita, maybe a long-time Heyagashira, who can get the money together - why not? Ok,Ok, maybe a Jonidan-Oyakata wouldn't look that good, so Makushita could be the border. I want Oyakata who care for Sumo and their boys, not this "I'll let the Heya-manager watch over the keiko"-type...

I suspect that's impossible unless the price of a kabu completely craters or the ministry applies its jackboot and essentially declares kabu worthless. As an alternative suggestion: How about a big expansion of the wakaimonogashira ranks? I agree that there are plenty of qualified trainers who never reached the sekitori ranks, and it's a waste of their experience that the only ways for them to contribute is to stay active as a rikishi (I wonder how many truly want to fight anymore when they're 35+ years old?) or to get hired as a stable manager at the shisho's own expense.

On that note, one thing I've requested before: More separation between "administrative" oyakata and "coaching" oyakata. Let Musashigawa-oyakata or whomever reap the rewards of being a high-ranking executive, but please pass the stable to a qualified younger oyakata once you're a major part of the Kyokai bureaucracy. Dewanoumi/Sakaigawa-rijicho had the right idea when he did exactly that for himself. (And yeah, I suspect that requires some breaking of the power of the ichimons, which is something I'm generally a bit more skeptical about than ILS...)

Edited July 4, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ilovesumo 12]

Kabu shouldn't depend on ranks. If there is a (as a teacher qualified) Ex-Makushita, maybe a long-time Heyagashira, who can get the money together - why not? Ok,Ok, maybe a Jonidan-Oyakata wouldn't look that good, so Makushita could be the border. I want Oyakata who care for Sumo and their boys, not this "I'll let the Heya-manager watch over the keiko"-type...

I suspect that's impossible unless the price of a kabu completely craters or the ministry applies its jackboot and essentially declares kabu worthless. As an alternative suggestion: How about a big expansion of the wakaimonogashira ranks? I agree that there are plenty of qualified trainers who never reached the sekitori ranks, and it's a waste of their experience that the only ways for them to contribute is to stay active as a rikishi (I wonder how many truly want to fight anymore when they're 35+ years old?) or to get hired as a stable manager at the shisho's own expense.

On that note, one thing I've requested before: More separation between "administrative" oyakata and "coaching" oyakata. Let Musashigawa-oyakata or whomever reap the rewards of being a high-ranking executive, but please pass the stable to a qualified younger oyakata once you're a major part of the Kyokai bureaucracy. Dewanoumi/Sakaigawa-rijicho had the right idea when he did exactly that for himself. (And yeah, I suspect that requires some breaking of the power of the ichimons, which is something I'm generally a bit more skeptical about than ILS...)

Agree.

And it's not only the Oyakata - administrative or coaching. Often it's one particular Rikishi leading the keiko. Doesn't even have to be a Sekitori.

Yes, the Wakaimonogashira- idea is nice. Each Heya should have one if not Shisho + other Oyakata.

[sekitori 492]

Although it can't be called a social, personal freedom, or inner reform, what about beginning the day's bouts at a later hour than at present? The four PM starting time for makunouchi matches is a carryover from the past and while following tradition is fine, in many instances it's impractical. If the start would be delayed by three hours, makunouchi matches would begin at around seven PM instead of four PM. That would allow more people to both attend and watch the bouts on TV and such a change could help create more interest in sumo. I have a feeling that NHK would strongly object to such a change since it would harm their prime time programming schedule. But if there was enough support for it, I think that NHK could live with that change for twelve weeks out of the year.

[Asojima 2,874]

makunouchi matches would begin at around seven PM instead of four PM.

The start time for the unwashed multitudes in California would then be 2AM PST or 3AM PDT. (I am not worthy...) (Sign of disapproval...) (Blinking...)

Edited July 4, 2010 by Asojima

[sekitori 492]

makunouchi matches would begin at around seven PM instead of four PM.

The start time for the unwashed multitudes in California would then be 2AM PSTor 3AM PDT. (I am not worthy...) (Sign of disapproval...) (Blinking...)

Also being one of the unwashed multitudes in California, 11 PM PST and midnight PDT start times are already too late for me. But they're not too late for my Tivo. :-) Although I have the opportunity of watching live sumo on TV Japan, I hardly ever have. I just watch the next day. The one accommodation I have to make is to avoid checking out this forum until after I've seen the day's bouts.

Besides, the people on the east coast of the USA already put up with 2 AM EST and 3AM EDT start times and they don't seem to be suffering too much. For the sake of helping to save sumo, please change your (Blinking...) (Sign of disapproval...) (Blinking...) to a rousing (Applauding...). Thank you.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

That trivia aside, for a comprehensive revision of the injury system I'd like to see authority transferred to an independent medical board of some type. Give rikishi as much time to recuperate from serious injuries as that board deems necessary; whether that's combined with a full kosho rule (no demotions at all while out injured) or some type of limited demotion system as in Asojima's suggestion is of lower priority to me.

Education, kabu, ichimon stuff all undoubtedly good targets for reforms but this one by Asashosakari is the one I have been thinking too. It is also easy to implement, just one panel of 2-3 doctors. Always at least one orthopedist specialized in athletes and then when needed internal medicine doctor etc. There are many injuries that are objectively rather easy to determine and evaluate the needed recovery time and means of treatment.

The panel's job would only be to determine the time frame for no demotion-time. There could easily be a salary cut after some minimum recovery time and then threshold for when full demotion automation comes into play. This way it would be fair for all rikishi and also would give a chance to undergo surgeries which enable full function again without worrying about the major drop on the banzuke.

Freerider lazy rikishi couldn't lull around saying "oh it is not that good still" and collect the good salary and untouched banzuke position while resting more than necessary because there would be full demotion automation and salary cut scheme after the determined reasonably strict time frame.

For example:

Ankle fracture not requiring operative management: 8-10 weeks time frame where no salary cut, no banzuke drop (6 weeks cast, then progressive rehab 2-4 weeks). Definitely not back to normal strength after that but able to take part in most cases.

Heart transplant: 4 weeks time frame (couple of pills, inserting love and passion towards wife/gf and sumo into new heart)

Complete ACL-tear with menisci damage: operative treatment 6 months time frame

And so on based on each case recommendations by expert panel which has access to MRI/x-rays, clinical findings etc.

[Peterao 3]

For me, it would be easier to list the things that shouldn't change.

1. The rikishi should keep fighting in mawashi.

2. They should continue to fight in a round clay ring.

[omoimori 0]

I would say the most important reform would be finding some way to allow injured rikishi to sit out tournaments and return to health. As it is now, the talent is too often just ground up and discarded (not that that is much different than some other professional sports.). I will leave specific recommendations to others, but maybe there are simply too many hon-basho.

As far as the structure of Ozumo and the Kyokai, how about instituting the concept of the journeyman. In order to become a full-blown oyakata, one would first have to leave Ozumo for a year and work in a similar field to get experience in the outside world. For example: a coaching intern for a college or high school athletic department or maybe work with a professional coaching staff in another sport or even another country. The prospective oyakata then learns new health, fitness and sports medicine techniques while spreading sumo techniques and culture to other sports.

[Fizmoyama 0]

I agree with all urgently needed social and health improvements which are already discussed here.

I also would like to see lower prices for international broadcasting, so that we can see again Sumo in Europe via Eurosport. (Showing respect...)

Furthermore I would like to see that professional Sumo becomes even more international with more international events and marketing the sumo sport in a better way. A dream would be establishing Hon Bashos also in North America and Europe. Hehe, then we don't need travel to Japan to watch them live and could buy directly year tickets (Kimura Zatoichi...).

Fizmoyama

[Jonosuke 28]

First and foremost, there are two many heya - there should be more stringent rules for a heya to stay, the minimum of 20 members (including gyoji, tokoyama, sewanin etc but not counting heya managers). Smaller heya attract fewer supporters so they will be financially unstable, needing to rely on major supporters of any ilk (unsavory characters with dubious source of funds). Basically we should stop few Tanimachi from influencing the heya operations. We should institute a member support heya system with the maximum membership fee of 100,000 Yen, starting from 10,000 Yen membership. Each heya must attract large number of supporters to justify their continuing operations. If a heya folds, the Kyokai will take over the operations for the reminder of the year (let's say each year starting from Jan 1 and ends on Dec 31) and the following year, the rikishi be will be put on a draft, the best performing heya having the first choice (to encourage excellence).

Second, to get out of Min of EduSci wing and go on their own. While some may argue that we cannot trust old fat men with Grade 9 education, this way the Kyokai will be better able to handle any situation without worrying about what politically charged bureaucrats will do to their organization. If they lack expertise, bring in outsider directors from their kensho sponsors and college professors with sumo knowledge and interest. The Kyokai will lose the special status but then they will realize they have to work that much harder to earn their living. Transparency and fiduciary responsibility can be maintained without being supported by bureaucrats.

Recognize for once and all that they cannot function without foreign born rikishi and establish an academy as a nesting ground of the next generation of rikishi. There the students not only learn sumo techniques but also the history, manners, language (oral and written), finance, health and business acumen. The academy should also teach social and job skills they can use even after they are out of Ozumo world.

Hold one basho every two years outside the country where the most foreign born rikishi origitnate from so if we have one now then it will be Mongolia, possibly in July. This will not be a jungyo or exhibition but a real basho. Obviously financially this will be not easy but the Kyokai as outside of government interference can act more with business on mind, for instance to get a marketing firm to package the basho with TV and media rights (generate more revenue by On Demand broadcast and DVD sales) and corporate sponsors.

Some believe all these "reforms" work contrary to Ozumo's traditions and heritage but without some drastic changes either Ozumo will be controlled by "outside" influences or cease to exist.

[Muhomatsu 227]

One minor reform would be the addition of a few new Oyakata shares to get some fresh blood into the Kyokai.

I was thinking that all Ichidai-Toshiyori shares could become permanent...

You could have a permanent

Kitanoumi

Taiho

Takanohana

(the honor could be refused, a la Chiyonofuji)...

Could also grab a few older names that had been used - like Futabayama

[sekihiryu 51]

Americans sorry but finishing at 7 or 8pm on weekdays would be brilliant for fans and spectators.

Re-install Kosho.

Allow top level guys (sanyaku) who get injured the chance to start again at the bottom of Juryo after a long injury/surgery break.

Allow Maegashira to come back at Ms10 if they get injured and need a long break surgery.

So many of the top guys should have surgery, they a battled on never reaching their full potential.

Get some outsiders into the management of it all. People with useful worldly experience.

I am sure there are more.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

51 sumo stables 'too many'

IN AN exclusive interview with The Yomiuri Shimbun on Saturday, lawyer Takayasu Okushima, chairman of an independent committee for improving governance of the Japan Sumo Association, expressed his resolve to investigate a wide range of problems and bring the scandal-tainted sumo world back to normal...

AsiaOne News

[Babaryutaikai 1]

Americans sorry but finishing at 7 or 8pm on weekdays would be brilliant for fans and spectators.

<SNIP>

Are you kidding? I absolutely agree with you on the time. That would be perfect (at least on the East Coast) and prevent me from waking up in the middle of the night to watch live (I am not worthy...)

[Yubinhaad 11,657]

51 sumo stables 'too many'

IN AN exclusive interview with The Yomiuri Shimbun on Saturday, lawyer Takayasu Okushima, chairman of an independent committee for improving governance of the Japan Sumo Association, expressed his resolve to investigate a wide range of problems and bring the scandal-tainted sumo world back to normal...

AsiaOne News

I particularly like the following response from Mr Okushima:

"A: I think the conditions for inheriting toshiyori qualification should be stricter. Given that the personality of a stablemaster has a lot to do with building his disciples' character, bestowing toshiyori status should be made contingent on not only accomplishments as an active wrestler but also on candidates' human qualities."

As for the idea of putting all heya under centralized Kyokai control, isn't that along the same lines as the reforms proposed by ex-rijicho Dewanoumi (Sadanoyama) during his time in charge?

[Yubinhaad 11,657]

One minor reform would be the addition of a few new Oyakata shares to get some fresh blood into the Kyokai.

I was thinking that all Ichidai-Toshiyori shares could become permanent...

You could have a permanent

Kitanoumi

Taiho

Takanohana

(the honor could be refused, a la Chiyonofuji)...

Could also grab a few older names that had been used - like Futabayama

I'd start with the introduction of a Tanikaze toshiyori - it bemuses me that such a name has been left to the history books. Tachiyama-beya would sound good, too. Any other nominations?

[Orion 431]

As for the idea of putting all heya under centralized Kyokai control, isn't that along the same lines as the reforms proposed by ex-rijicho Dewanoumi (Sadanoyama) during his time in charge?

Yes. It was one of the things that led to the Night of the Long Knives

and finished him as Rijicho.

Orion