What I believe the NSK needs to become

[Peterao 3]

their fundamental way of thinking.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I've been trying to collect my thoughts on this for awhile now. The vision is still fuzzy, and this is certainly not the only way it could be done, but I think this gives an overall example of the type of overhaul that I believe is necessary to bring sumo into the 21st century.

For all I've said about the Kyokai, I agree with them on one fundamental issue: the need to preserve tradition. The tradition of sumo, dating back over thousands of years, is sumo's greatest asset. Without that history, sumo becomes little more than a really watered down martial art, probably below judo and karate in the pecking order.

My disagreement comes in the scope of the tradition that needs to be preserved. The Kyokai believes that everything, from the heya system, to the byzantine stock ownership format, needs to be preserved as closely to the system that they grew up under as possible. I believe that, for at least 98% of the fans, the traditions that are important are the ones that happen within the dohyo. Few fans will ever see the inside of a heya for keiko; fewer still will see the rikishi hanging out together in a dorm. Everything outside of the in-dohyo routines can, and should, be completely overhauled.

I see a new Kyokai (let's call it ASP, the Association of Sumo Professionals) as nothing more than a regulatory organization, like FIFA or, perhaps more closely, the ATP of tennis. This organization would dictate the rules of sumo, how a dohyo is to be built, the hairstyles required, the ranking system, and what a promoter has to do to run a tournament.

There would be no more heya (I'm not too concerned with how this would be accomplished. If the kabu are not wiped out entirely, perhaps a flat sum could be paid to the current holders) Nobody would be required to join a heya; anybody could become a part of sumo, even someone who has "retired" before, greatly increasing the pool of available talent. Anybody could be a trainer, set up their own practice ring, and be free to charge as much (or as little) as they like. The minimum age to become a rikishi would be raised to 18 to encourage children to at least finish high school; though with no heya system, people are free to go to school, or even continue working a day job if they like.

The jungyo would be replaced by small tournaments held around the country by independent promoters under the guidance of ASP. All of these tournaments would affect a rikishi's ranking, so no more pretend sumo on tours. These would be the places where the lower ranked rikishi would fight to increase their ranking, with the yokozuna making an appearance to do his traditional dohyo iri. But a rikishi could only become number one by winning a major tournament.

The hon-basho would be replaced by a Grand Slam system of four main tournaments: one in Tokyo, one in Osaka, and two more floating around various regional locations. This is where the top 70 ranked rikishi would fight in the traditional 15 match system, with the winner becoming the new yokozuna, and the old yokozuna falling to no worse than number two in the rankings. You are never stuck with a weak and aging yokozuna; the yokozuna is by definition the best. And any rikishi is free to stick around as long as he likes, so long as he's okay with the prospect of wrestling in the backwaters of Beppu and Ishigakejima to try and earn his way back to the top.

You keep the traditions of the dohyo-iri, the yokozuna, the major hon-basho. You add the excitement of jungyo that matters. You give the rikishi a life outside of the sumo ring, and the ability to learn a trade or earn a degree to prepare for life outside of sumo if all doesn't turn out as planned. And you jetison all of the ridiculous overhead that only 2% of fans care about that keeps Ozumo from being able its own problems.

The bottom line is, the Kyokai needs to get away from being everything to sumo, and become simply a guiding light, while society takes the reigns to determine sumo's proper place.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

their fundamental way of thinking.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I've been trying to collect my thoughts on this for awhile now. The vision is still fuzzy, and this is certainly not the only way it could be done, but I think this gives an overall example of the type of overhaul that I believe is necessary to bring sumo into the 21st century.

What you are proposing is EXACTLY what you say you don't want to see. If any of your improvement ideas gets implemented then that's what we'll have-sumo becomes "little more than a really watered down martial art, probably below judo and karate in the pecking order". Just one glaring screw-up- "The hon-basho would be replaced by a Grand Slam system of four main tournaments". Two sentences down you say "You keep the traditions of the dohyo-iri, the yokozuna, the major hon-basho". For Pete's sake.. Keep or replace? Replace or keep? Or do those words mean the same in your world?

Try again, I'm listening.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Kintamayama

[ilovesumo 12]

Sorry but, I think you miss what tradition means to them.

Especially the Heya-system has to be preserved.

Sumo like you want it already exists- called Amateur Sumo. Go and watch that...

After analysing who becomes a Rikishi, it became clear that most of all the boys need trust and respect - like a Heya should be. Oyakata should be teacher and beloved father-figure. In this relationship I see the beauty of Sumo. Have you ever been to a Heya? Ever seen hard keiko and after that, a real great Oyakata talking to his deshi like only a father would? THIS has to be saved.

The NSK must become more responsible then ever before - to give em boys a future, even those who quit after a while.

[Peterao 3]

their fundamental way of thinking.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I've been trying to collect my thoughts on this for awhile now. The vision is still fuzzy, and this is certainly not the only way it could be done, but I think this gives an overall example of the type of overhaul that I believe is necessary to bring sumo into the 21st century.

What you are proposing is EXACTLY what you say you don't want to see. If any of your improvement ideas gets implemented then that's what we'll have-sumo becomes "little more than a really watered down martial art, probably below judo and karate in the pecking order". Just one glaring screw-up- "The hon-basho would be replaced by a Grand Slam system of four main tournaments". Two sentences down you say "You keep the traditions of the dohyo-iri, the yokozuna, the major hon-basho". For Pete's sake.. Keep or replace? Replace or keep? Or do those words mean the same in your world?

Try again, I'm listening.

I'm gave that as an example, not my specific proposal. My general idea is to keep the traditions of the dohyo that the fans see, and jetison the traditions that the fans do not see.

Please explain to me like the idiot that I am exactly why you think that people still wouldn't recognize such sumo as the "Japanese national sport"

[ilovesumo 12]

Don't call people something like that, not even yourself.

It simply wouldn't be Sumo anymore, but some theatre...

Sumo is a LIFESTYLE, not a Sport in the western way of thinking.

You want to remain the nutshell and throw away the nut.

Edited July 8, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Peterao 3]

Sorry but, I think you miss what tradition means to them.

Especially the Heya-system has to be preserved.

Sumo like you want it already exists- called Amateur Sumo. Go and watch that...

After analysing who becomes a Rikishi, it became clear that most of all the boys need trust and respect - like a Heya should be. Oyakata should be teacher and beloved father-figure. In this relationship I see the beauty of Sumo. Have you ever been to a Heya? Ever seen hard keiko and after that, a real great Oyakata talking to his deshi like only a father would? THIS has to be saved.

The NSK must become more responsible then ever before - to give em boys a future, even those who quit after a while.

If that is the best system, then a coach is free to start his own "boarding school" and do exactly what you propose. Only under my system, people are free to choose a better way, perhaps one that is better suited to them.

I don't see my vision as Amasumo at all. I see my vision as Ozumo that is free to evolve.

[Peterao 3]

I am not looking to change anyone's mind. I am only stating what I think needs to happen in order to both survive and remain sumo. And that I believe such a thing is possible.

[ilovesumo 12]

I am not looking to change anyone's mind. I am only stating what I think needs to happen in order to both survive and remain sumo. And that I believe such a thing is possible.

Fine, and if a person states something, this results into a discussion - cause we are a forum of intelligent people. :-)

[Kintamayama 45,111]

Please explain to me like the idiot that I am exactly why you think that people still wouldn't recognize such sumo as the "Japanese national sport"

OK, a few reasons: People are used to having three bashos in Tokyo and three others out of Tokyo-they are Hon-basho-the real deal. What you propose are beefed up jungyos. If every jungyo will count, the honbasho will lose its attraction and we'll be having a new banzuke out every hour. People do like to know who's winning and who's on top. Demoting a Yokozuna? That doesn't fundamentally change the sumo world? No one will notice that? Let's make it more fun and decide wins based on "best of three"! Surely, "people will still recognize such sumo as the "Japanese national sport" ", but it would be a different thing altogether- you may as well call it professional Nmhjbv.

[Personality analysis]I don't believe for a millisecond that you truly want to see any of these changes. Contrary to the image you are trying to project, you are a true purist and sumo fan, and the state the Kyokai has brought it to at the present is driving you nuts with anger.[/Personality analysis]

I see through you, sir.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Takamizawa 0]

My general idea is to keep the traditions of the dohyo that the fans see, and jetison the traditions that the fans do not see.

Ya but the unique experiences of hard training and social interactions of heya life are something traditional that fans can see...

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

I have to agree that if such proposals somehow became reality, it would cease to be Ozumo in my eyes. The grand slam bit with the swapping of Yokozuna just wouldn't work with the goal of retaining any tradition, you'd have to do away with it all. It'd be a mockery if anything was preserved at that point.

[Peterao 3]

I have to agree that if such proposals somehow became reality, it would cease to be Ozumo in my eyes. The grand slam bit with the swapping of Yokozuna just wouldn't work with the goal of retaining any tradition, you'd have to do away with it all. It'd be a mockery if anything was preserved at that point.

I wonder if this overwhelmingly majority view is simply because all of that had to be digested at once. If these changes were phased in over the course of 50 years, I don't think that many people would even notice, and fewer still would end up a overly negative opinion, other than perhaps to wistfully muse about changing times.

I just think that the inevitable needs to happen 49 years sooner. Or needed to start 49 years ago, but we can't change that now, can we?

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

I wonder if this overwhelmingly majority view is simply because all of that had to be digested at once. If these changes were phased in over the course of 50 years, I don't think that many people would even notice, and fewer still would end up a overly negative opinion, other than perhaps to wistfully muse about changing times.

You certainly need more than 50 years to shake the yokozuna tradition. I have Sumo magazines more than 60 years old which have the same yokozuna ichiran table like they are shown in today's magazines, just continued with a few dozen more yokozuna of course.

As a comparison with another traditional sport, it's a bit like the abolishment of the old way world champions were determined in chess when you had to beat the old champion in a long series - the world champions also were numbered like the yokozuna are. Nowadays the FIDE champion gets determined in a tournament with about 100 grandmasters, but no one can remember after a few years who was world champion, while the list of the traditional world champions probably will never be forgotten.

The same would happen to your new "yokozuna" - quickly forgotten while the old yokozuna from number 1 to number 69 stay legends.

[Peterao 3]

I wonder if this overwhelmingly majority view is simply because all of that had to be digested at once. If these changes were phased in over the course of 50 years, I don't think that many people would even notice, and fewer still would end up a overly negative opinion, other than perhaps to wistfully muse about changing times.

You certainly need more than 50 years to shake the yokozuna tradition. I have Sumo magazines more than 60 years old which have the same yokozuna ichiran table like they are shown in today's magazines, just continued with a few dozen more yokozuna of course.

As a comparison with another traditional sport, it's a bit like the abolishment of the old way world champions were determined in chess when you had to beat the old champion in a long series - the world champions also were numbered like the yokozuna are. Nowadays the FIDE champion gets determined in a tournament with about 100 grandmasters, but no one can remember after a few years who was world champion, while the list of the traditional world champions probably will never be forgotten.

The same would happen to your new "yokozuna" - quickly forgotten while the old yokozuna from number 1 to number 69 stay legends.

Going back to my tennis example, for the first 43 years of its existence, the Wimbledon champion was determined by a match between the previous year's champion, and the winner of a challenger tournament. To be the man, you had to beat the man.

Not to diminish the accomplishments of William Renshaw and the Doherty family, but I think that the accomplishments of Borg, Sampras, and Federer under the new system are held in every bit as much esteem, if not more.

All the people saying that sumo would not thrive under a new system have no way of knowing that. They I believe that they merely fear change, much like our current overlords.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Peterao

[Asashosakari 19,319]

The same would happen to your new "yokozuna" - quickly forgotten while the old yokozuna from number 1 to number 69 stay legends.

Reminds me of the occasional fan suggestion to loosen up the boundary between sekiwake and ozeki, always ignoring that the ozeki rank derives much of its prestige from the fact that there are so relatively few changes among its holders.

Of course, after the kanban phase of sumo history was over, the ozeki rank wasn't that much different from what the yokozuna rank is today - (nearly) strictly limited to just two holders at once, and often held by a rikishi until the end of his career. I suspect somebody from 1850 would be quite horrified to find out what the ozeki rank has turned into today. Logical conclusion: If the yokozuna rank gets devalued in a similar way, chances are that sooner or later somebody will demand yet another, even higher, honorific to be bestowed. (Actually, if that didn't happen, it would probably be because future audiences don't even think of what they're watching as "Ozumo" anymore.)

Edited July 8, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ilovesumo 12]

They I believe that they merely fear change, much like our current overlords.

Nope.

Changes are important and always happened. Read some Sumo history.

I don't fear changes, I am pleading for changes, but the right ones- and for the right kind of changes you need to know what the problems are. It's not the Yokozuna. Yokozuna are needed as idols as well as symbols. Their role is well defined now and they can be compared.

The meaning of the Tsuna tells it all.

The Rank "developed", cause one Ozeki was invincible, not even touchable by his opponents. He had to be distinguishable from all the other Ozeki who were not his class.

Am with Asashosakari. If, there would rather be a higher rank, "Tsunayama" or so...

[Asashosakari 19,319]

Nowadays the FIDE champion gets determined in a tournament with about 100 grandmasters, but no one can remember after a few years who was world champion, while the list of the traditional world champions probably will never be forgotten.

And another thought along those lines - the annual sumo amateur champions are also titled "yokozuna", of course, but nobody would confuse their status with the real thing. Heck, I'm paying attention to that stuff and I can't name last year's All-Japan champion off-hand. (It took me several moments just to remember Myogiryu, then several more until I recalled that he didn't win that tournament. Five minutes later, I'm still not sure who won the All-Japan...)

[Hakuyobaku 33]

QUOTE (Doitsuyama @ Jul 8, 2010, 23:53)

Nowadays the FIDE champion gets determined in a tournament with about 100 grandmasters, but no one can remember after a few years who was world champion, while the list of the traditional world champions probably will never be forgotten.

That experiment is over in pure sense.

Knockout tournaments of 128 players were played by FIDE in for about 10 years, producing less than stellar champions (and Kramnik was claiming championship anyway, having his matches, sponsored by different places.)

Two last championships were decided in a match (Anand-Topalov, Anand-Kramnik), before that there was also a tournament of 8, and before that was a unifying match betweeen Topalov the FIDE champion and Kramnik the classic champion (in the line). Now there's a single champion and a legendary one at that.

So chess example is misleading as firstly they're still clinging to traditions of a match, and on the other hand sponsorship issues may as well soon get better of chess (coupled with computer chess and problems that come with it).

Edited July 9, 2010 by Hakuyobaku

[Orion 431]

I believe that they merely fear change, much like our current overlords.

Nope.

Changes are important and always happened. Read some Sumo history.

I don't fear changes, I am pleading for changes, but the right ones.... [snip]

Right! Changes have been happening all the time, and I am getting tired of saying so. But I agree with ILS that they have to be the right kind of changes. They should not be a hasty bit of window-dressing. They should not be changes for changes' sake.

Orion

Edited July 9, 2010 by Orion

[kawika 123]

I have to agree that if such proposals somehow became reality, it would cease to be Ozumo in my eyes. The grand slam bit with the swapping of Yokozuna just wouldn't work with the goal of retaining any tradition, you'd have to do away with it all. It'd be a mockery if anything was preserved at that point.

I admit the starter of this thread does take an interesting slant, but as pointed out in an earlier reply, this proposal will result in a martial art, that would be less popular than the rest.

I strongly agree with Tamaikazuchi here, you need to preserve it. I think what is missing is accountablity, education, and transpancy.

Form a outside party who audits the heya, one-by-one.

Put deshi through an eduction program which if they complete it, gives them a college degree. Same goes for the oyakata.

Have the audit in item #1 publish their findings.

I believe these items could made a difference.

[Kintamayama 45,111]

I strongly agree with Tamaikazuchi here, you need to preserve it. I think what is missing is accountablity, education, and transpancy.

I think everyone can live with that and that this is the course they are embarking on more or less, to my understanding.

[Tamaikazuchi 4]

I strongly agree with Tamaikazuchi here, you need to preserve it. I think what is missing is accountablity, education, and transpancy.

I think everyone can live with that and that this is the course they are embarking on more or less, to my understanding.

I sure hope so.