Yaocho by mobile scandal-

[Asashosakari 19,631]

Oops, accidentally deleted the post Jonosuke is quoting instead of editing it. Trying again with what I meant to add:

Details for the most recent two dismissees: Natsu 2010 Day 11 Sokokurai d. Kasuganishiki, Hatsu 2011 Day 7 Hoshikaze d. Chiyohakuho. The committee claims to have testimony from both opponents as well as Enatsukasa for doing the go-between stuff. Apparently (and I may be getting things wrong here), a representative for Sokokurai disputed that Enatsukasa had testified against him, so the committee went back to Enatsukasa after the initial report to the Kyokai brass on April 1st and confirmed things. For Hoshikaze they originally wanted to tag him with a yaocho match against Kasuganishiki in Kyushu 2009, but this didn't work for some reason or other - but Chiyohakuho spoke up in the April 1st riji meeting and brought up the January bout.

If anyone wants to correct my likely errors: http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/article/sports/n...1202000022.html

Edited April 12, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,495]

This is really indicative how flimsy of evidence they are basing the whole thing.

There is one big factor here you are not taking into consideration- to put it simply, the Kyokai have two "state's witnesses", who have admitted to actively taking part, and have, for reasons known only to themselves, decided to turn on their colleagues and testify against them. If this were the mob, they would be relocated via the witness program... They were there, and not only named names but also revealed how it was all done, backing it up with concrete bouts and agreements, all found to be true by the committee and its 40+ lawyers. In a court of law (we shall see..) their "word" will be much stronger than those that deny. Who knows what else was revealed that we don't know? I'm pretty sure the Kyokai still has some aces up their sleeves, in anticipation that of the 25 dismissed, some may sue. The Shukan Gendais were passing on rumors of other people who heard other people-no participants there, not even remotely similar cases.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Oguruma Oyakata: "Hoshikaze has not accepted this. Still, I will be discussing this with him calmly tonight". He has till tomorrow at 17:00 JST to hand in his retirement papers. "I'm not sure he has thought about going as far as suing.. Still, he wants to be honest about his own feelings. This is an important juncture in his life, so I would like him not to care about being a bother to me or the other rikishi and just think about himself.." he added.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Peterao 3]

It seems that the upcoming Shukan Post contains a quote from ex-Kaiho claiming that "Just before the start of the investigation, Oguruma-oyakata advised his deshi to change their cell phones 'just in case'"

As the investigation committee hasn't disbanded yet, I imagine that they cannot let this slide without some investigation...

EDIT: This was already reported in other media at least as early as April 2nd, so not as "recent" a development as I thought it was...

Edited April 13, 2011 by Peterao

[Keishikazawa 0]

I agree with this statement 100%. I'm surprised a bunch of the regular Mongolians aren't doing this too.

That's because the "bunch of the regular Mongolians" know full well they did it and were unlucky to have done it with a guy who decided to "sell out" all his ex-friends. They also know they are not the only ones who did it. The only difference between them and the two dissidents is that the dissidents want to bring down others with them, in a knee-jerk response of "Mommy, they started it" proportions. Reading between the lines and on the lines, the Kyokai has made it amply obvious that they have excellent lawyers that have assured them that they can't be touched.

I hope they don't chicken out at the last minute. I'd love to see how this is going to pan out.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong. But if I were going to just end up going home in disgrace in the manner these guys are (and by that I mean with more than a few guys left in sumo that pretty much everyone knows have done yaocho on more than the 1 or 2 occasions they tagged me with, but no one will say anything), I would want to make sure it's with as much money as possible. I'm sure the kyokai has good lawyers, but I'm just skeptical that these allegations can hold up that well in court. I guess we won't know unless the entirety of the independent committee's findings are released, which I doubt will happen.

I also stand by my statement that any lawsuits will probably be settled out of court. The unfortunate natural disasters and subsequent nuclear situation have taken quite a bit of focus off this whole mess, and if I were the kyokai I would be more than a bit reticent to bring the focus back to me when I could avoid it by shelling out a bit more cash.

Just for the record, I went with "regular Mongolians" because it's easier that typing "a bunch of the Mongolians not from the inner Mongolia Autonomous Region", but I suppose I can go with that if you want. I suppose it's what I get for wanting to be specific but being too lazy type a few extra words.

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Just for the record, I went with "regular Mongolians" because it's easier that typing "a bunch of the Mongolians not from the inner Mongolia Autonomous Region", but I suppose I can go with that if you want. I suppose it's what I get for wanting to be specific but being too lazy type a few extra words.

I got that-I quoted it because I kinda liked it..

[Kintamayama 45,495]

"He will not hand in his retirement notification. He is adamant. If he gets banished, he will hold a press conference!" said Arashio Oyakata of Soukokurai. "I deny everything. I will not hand it in!" reiterated the man himself. "He knows if he gets banished he's giving up his retirement money. But once that happens, he no longer belongs to the heya or the Kyokai and is free to do as he wishes. He is planning on opening a website where he will air his grievances. He is discussing his next step with his lawyer," said someone who knows. He also plans to send a written report to the the Sinistry of Etc. stating point of view.

Hoshikaze? "He has a family he has to think about. I don't think he is thinking of suing. I did not try to persuade him either way when we discussed it," said Oguruma Oyakata. The reporter speculates Hoshikaze will tender his resignation in the end.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 45,495]

The Arashio-beya site has some interesting testimonials regarding Soukokurai. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before. An active Oyakata is standing firmly behind his disgraced deshi in his attempt to clear his name. It's quite a long manifesto, the gist being "I am his shisho, I taught him everything he knows, a bright future has been cut down brutally, he is innocent, the investigation is a sham, how can I look the other deshi in the eye when this kind of thing happens etc.." It seems the two are really close, much more so than any average shisho-deshi relationship-it seems he sees himself as Soukokurai's father.

Additionally, Soukokurai attempts to prove that the investigation committee has no proof whatsoever of his wrongdoings by simply pointing out that there is no proof..

Maybe someone can please translate the whole thing??

http://www.arashio.net/

Edited April 13, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 45,495]

In an interview with the Asahi Shinbun, Soukokurai has some serious allegations. "I was called in four times by the investigative committee. The first meeting was normal. In the second meeting, I was told I was guilty of yaocho. The third time, I was told there was a concrete bout that was suspect and asked if I did it or not. This question was screamed at me five-six times.. It was after the fourth session that I decided to go to court. 'You threw the match for 400,000 yen' they said. When I asked what proof they had, they said it was not a criminal investigation so they didn't have to hold a detailed investigation.. It seemed to me that from the outset they were hell-bent on finding me guilty and that's what happened. There may be others who did actually do it, but I didn't and will never admit it. I know I will be forfeiting a lot of money by not going along with this, but it is not a question of money or remaining in the sumo world-it's a question of clearing my name and my honor." At first, he was supposed to have been accused with the first batch of rikishi, but Enatsukasa the go-between had testified that he was not involved, so he was let off the hook pending further investigation, which led to his belated dismissal. The story was that Soukokurai and Kasuganishiki went to the same gym, where Soukokurai allegedly approached Kasuganishiki and asked to join the yaocho "gang". "I know his face, but I have never spoken to him. When I became a sekitori I stopped frequenting that gym. AFAIK, Enatsukasa did not sign the affidavit concerning me. Even after being asked to sign it during the 'further investigation', it appears he refused. I know some people will regard me as the 'bad guy' but even if one out of 10,000 will believe me, it will be worth the fight.."

[Jakusotsu 6,041]

It's this preposterous kind of McCarthyism that will eventually turn me away from sumo, more than yaocho itself.

[Peterao 3]

Both Sokokurai and Hoshikaze have let the deadline pass, and will receive their punishment like MEN tomorrow.

It seems odd to me that, while all of the active rikishi implicated last time meekly resigned, these two are resolved to fight it out. Maybe the reason they were singled out to be fingered later was a failed attempt to give certain people more time to "convince" them to leave quietly?

Edited April 13, 2011 by Peterao

[Kintamayama 45,495]

"I thought they would heed our 'advice' and retire, but if they didn't, what can I do.. We will decide on their punishment tomorrow," said Hanaregoma Rijicho.

[Peterao 3]

This is something that I just thought of, and will probably be moot in a few hours, but what if, instead of kaiko, the Kyokai hands out the same 2 year ban they gave to Enatsukasa? They would still remain with the Kyokai, making it harder for them to sue, and if they somehow made it through they'd be banzuke-gai at age 30, and unlikely to ever return to a sekitori rank again.

[Jonosuke 28]

This is something that I just thought of, and will probably be moot in a few hours, but what if, instead of kaiko, the Kyokai hands out the same 2 year ban they gave to Enatsukasa? They would still remain with the Kyokai, making it harder for them to sue, and if they somehow made it through they'd be banzuke-gai at age 30, and unlikely to ever return to a sekitori rank again.

The reason is that the two year suspension is equivalent to retirement advisory as far as the Kyokai is concerned. If you get it, you are supposed to meekly hand in your resignation paper.

As I have maintained throughout Enatsukasa had nothing other than the call logs. He was never the arranger and did not actively or proactively "fix" any bout. He was nothing more than a messenger. He heard one guy, specifically, Kasuganishiki saying one thing but he was never certain that the actual yaocho took place other the fact what he has been told later.

Just because he may have heard one guy may lose ahead of the bout, that really is not a conclusive evidence of the bout fixing and the bout result may have been simply from another factor, not based on fixing as the participants may have not gone through with it.

Some at the hearings have time and time complained that Kasuganishiki changed his story or recanted his story so many times at the end, they had no idea whether he was telling the truth or not and that is the precise reason they needed to have another participant like Chiyohakuho (not Enatsukasa who was never involved in the actual bouts) to find their culprit.

And as for Chiyohakuho we have known about this guy for so long and how he has been known as a "bad apple" even the days before the substance abuse suspicion that the fact that the committee had to resort to relying on this guy would speak volume, indicating that they really had no solid evidence against most of the guys and their only recourse was to lean on their shisho to convince the named guys to quietly leave or go for Plan B, to threaten them with no separation money, outright dismissal from the Kyokai. These highly learned and educated hired guys must have been at ease with Orwell or Kafka.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Jonosuke

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Just because he may have heard one guy may lose ahead of the bout, that really is not a conclusive evidence of the bout fixing and the bout result may have b

Just out of curiosity, how would you have handled this? Let's say you're the rijicho, damning mobile mails are found, no question about yaocho-black on white-what would you have done differently? Question goes out to all members, actually-how would you have handled this?

[Jonosuke 28]

Just because he may have heard one guy may lose ahead of the bout, that really is not a conclusive evidence of the bout fixing and the bout result may have b

Just out of curiosity, how would you have handled this? Let's say you're the rijicho, damning mobile mails are found, no question about yaocho-black on white-what would you have done differently? Question goes out to all members, actually-how would you have handled this?

The damning call logs did not conclusively show black and white for all the rikishi. That decision was arrived at by the committee meetings, deciding the fate of these rikishi, only with the slimmest of evidence if at all by merely relying on one man's word.

Remember Kanechika talked about Asashoryu commutingYaocho but the Kyokai denied it ever taking place.

Most of the evidence comes from one rikisih's testimony, not all 21 rikishi's name showed in the call logs, pointing out yaocho taking place. Kasuganishiki talking about bouts between two other rikishi to Enatsukasa is just about as good as Kanechika tellhing his lover that Asashoryu and Hakuho committing a yaocho. It didn't stand up then and it does not now either.

But it's great new thread to open for more discussion so not to confuse issues raised in this thread.

[Kintamayama 45,495]

The damning call logs did not conclusively show black and white for all the rikishi. That decision was arrived at by the committee meetings, deciding the fate of these rikishi, only with the slimmest of evidence if at all by merely relying on one man's word.

By black and white I meant the existence of yaocho per se, not the details.

and mods-can you start a new thread-something like-what would you have done?

Most of the evidence comes from one rikisih's testimony, not all 21 rikishi's name showed in the call logs, pointing out yaocho taking place. Kasuganishiki talking about bouts between two other rikishi to Enatsukasa is just about as good as Kanechika tellhing his lover that Asashoryu and Hakuho committing a yaocho.

Not accurate. Kasuganishiki testified about the bouts he himself participated in, as can be seen in the post where the bouts themselves are listed. Same thing with Chiyohakuhou. AFAIK. all rikishi who were dismissed faced either Chiyohakuhou or Kasuganishiki and were said to have been part of the "gang" by the two "state's witnesses" themselves, giving specific dates and matches, courtesy probably of the "bookkeeper" Enatsukasa. I don't think any rikishi was dismissed based on Kasuganishiki talking about bouts he wasn't in.

As for the truth of Kasuganishiki's statements- I tend to believe him because of the meticulous nature of his testimony as was shown in the post detailing every damning bout. It's like a gang of bank robbers getting caught and all of them denying their participation except one guy who turns against them and reveals details that only an insider could have known.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Peterao 3]

Hoshikaze and Sokokurai have made it known that they will be filing lawsuits. Hoshikaze is particularly amped up, saying that he has already procured a lawyer, and that his target is "the Kyokai and the investigation committee, both of them." Asked whether he's after reinstatement or monetary compensation, he replied, "I'll discuss that with the lawyer. What I want is a valid investigation! I want the proper result!"

[Peterao 3]

Hoshikaze and Sokokurai received their kaiko punishments. All information for both ex-rikishi is being deleted from the Kyokai website. <== sorry, nothing actually said about that.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Peterao

[Peterao 3]

In a surprise development, both Hoshikaze and Sokokurai received their retirement payment in full. "There were those who thought that the payment was odd" acknowledged Nishonoseki oyakata.

I imagine that all those who voluntarily retired are feeling like chumps now...

[sumofan 6]

Just because he may have heard one guy may lose ahead of the bout, that really is not a conclusive evidence of the bout fixing and the bout result may have b

Just out of curiosity, how would you have handled this? Let's say you're the rijicho, damning mobile mails are found, no question about yaocho-black on white-what would you have done differently? Question goes out to all members, actually-how would you have handled this?

I would not have thrown out people without at least circumstantial evidence.

The word of a rikishi would not be enough

During the witch trials in the dark ages, suspected witches were tortured. One of the ways to make the torture stop (and possibly get a lighter sentence, or at least a death which would not be drawn out) was to rat out other witches. Human nature is such that people just start saying names under pressure with the goal to make the unpleasantness go away. I can easily see rikishi naming names just to divert attention from themselves, with the hope that their punishment would be lighter.

I would not feel confident that the word of a rikishi could be trusted in cases like this.

[Asashosakari 19,631]

In a surprise development, both Hoshikaze and Sokokurai received their retirement payment in full. "There were those who thought that the payment was odd" acknowledged Nishonoseki oyakata.

I have no idea why the papers kept reporting that they wouldn't be receiving the retirement money all week long, given that it's been well-established that "kaiko" doesn't entitle the Kyokai to refuse paying, and no official was actually quoted that they were intending to do it differently this time. In any case, both rikishi have refused the money.

During the witch trials in the dark ages, suspected witches were tortured. One of the ways to make the torture stop (and possibly get a lighter sentence, or at least a death which would not be drawn out) was to rat out other witches. Human nature is such that people just start saying names under pressure with the goal to make the unpleasantness go away. I can easily see rikishi naming names just to divert attention from themselves, with the hope that their punishment would be lighter.

I would not feel confident that the word of a rikishi could be trusted in cases like this.

This analogy completely ignores that Kasuganishiki as Yaocho Zero a) wasn't the victim of a "witch hunt", but of pretty undeniable evidence of his own writing, and b) really had no hope of lessening his effective punishment no matter if he took down 5 or 50 other rikishi with him. (And that's without getting into the rather tasteless comparison of this investigation to "torture"...)

Edited April 14, 2011 by Asashosakari

[sumofan 6]

This analogy completely ignores that Kasuganishiki as Yaocho Zero a) wasn't the victim of a "witch hunt", but of pretty undeniable evidence of his own writing, and b) really had no hope of lessening his effective punishment no matter if he took down 5 or 50 other rikishi with him. (And that's without getting into the rather tasteless comparison of this investigation to "torture"...)

I am not comparing this investigation to torture. I used it as an example to indicate that people under pressure have a tendency to please the ones putting on the pressure, for a variety of reasons. This makes their testimony less reliable.

So far I was under the impression that in some cases, the kyokai went by hearsay without having text messages, bank statements, etc which would prove involvement outside of human testimony. I also did not name Kasuganishiki specifically. There are 20ish rikishi dismissed. The ones against which there is no damning , non-testimonial evidence should not be dismissed imo, because human testimony alone tends to be unreliable.

Edited April 14, 2011 by sumofan

[Yubinhaad 11,754]

It's like a gang of bank robbers getting caught and all of them denying their participation except one guy who turns against them and reveals details that only an insider could have known.

Kasuganishiki - the Japanese Specs O'Keefe!

I'm perfectly happy to accept the findings of the investigators, even if the match-fixers themselves aren't. The suspension of basho cannot continue indefinitely, just to satisfy a minority. As for people turning against the sport? So be it. There isn't a sport in the world that needs fair-weather "fans" who only stick around for the good times. True fans will stand by the sport and turn their backs only on the guilty.

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Soukokurai press conference today:

Q; "Have you ever done yaocho?'

A: "Ever since I came to Japan 8 years ago I never once did that kind of sumo. I have never done yaocho!"

Q: " Are you taking the severance money?"

A: "I have no intention of taking it. That is not the problem. I just want them to hold a more accurate investigation."

Q: "What's your problem with the investigation?"

A: "During the second investigation session I was told I was found guilty. I was unable tell them my side of the story. I couldn't even object. I want to prove my innocence and my lawyers will help me to attempt that.."

Q: "Do you want to return to the dohyo?"

A: "Of course that is my desire. I don't intend to cut my mage. This has all happened so fast that truth be told, I can't even think straight yet.."

Q: "What are your immediate plans?'

A: "I'm living in Arashio Beya, and I will be grateful if my Oyakata will let me continue to stay there .."

Hoshikaze: "I want to go to court to prove my innocence and that I have never done any yaocho. I feel I want to return to the dohyo as soon as possible."

Oguruma Oyakata, Hoshikaze's shisho: "This is not the way I had hoped it would end. If he says the only way he will feel better is to take this to court, all I can do is to watch over him during this transitional stage. Having my deshi banished from sumo makes me take a hard look at myself as well and gambarize.."

Hoshikaze's lawyer: "The biggest problem here is that they told him only once that he had a dubious bout against Chiyohakuhou without letting him object or attempt to prove otherwise.."

Edited April 14, 2011 by Kintamayama