Baruto Yokozuna run-really?

[Manekineko 200]

Baruto is a big, lovable teddy bear who enjoys life and seems to be well liked by all who know him.

Then again, so was Musashimaru, and once promoted he filled his role as a yokozuna splendidly. I guess Baruto will manage to get his hinkaku together (all the nagging details Kintamayama so nicely listed above) in case he qualifies for promotion. People usually do...

ps. Now I'm imagining twin Musa-Bart plushies, with tsuna on. Aww...

Edited January 23, 2012 by Manekineko

[Asashosakari 19,273]

Once again, two consecutive wins are a general guideline which the kyokai can choose to enforce or ignore at its own whim. The yokozuna is the public representative of Ozumo. As such, hinkaku is almost as important as the win margin. They cannot afford another Asashoryu at this point. Baruto is a big, lovable teddy bear who enjoys life and seems to be well liked by all who know him. They want a yokozuna with gravitas.

They have one in Hakuho, and he's likely to stick around at least as long as Baruto would if he gets promoted. I don't believe all yokozuna need to be typecast by the same role, even post-Asashoryu experience.

[Washuyama 641]

Yokozuna Baruto would be good for sumo IMHO. Hakuho needs a "rival." HMF, Bart and Kise give him good fights, but it's a surprise if they win as Hakuho is pretty much "expected" to win because he's the Y. If Bart (or another) gets promoted, Hakuho immediately has a peer and mentally, I would think, that has to factor in. I miss the Hakuho-Asashoryu war on senshuraku. It reminded me of the excitement I felt as a kid when Kitanoumi and Wajima went head-to-head. Regardless if one was having a "bad" tournament, it was always a good bout.

[Jaak 7]

The biggest argument against 12 wins being sufficient is probably Kaio's non-promotion after 13-2Y -> 12-3J in 2004, right in the middle of the first "please, can we have an anyone-but-Asashoryu yokozuna?" phase. Tochiazuma's non-promotion with 14-1Y -> 12-3 a year and a half later, right after Asashoryu had demolished the annual-wins record, indicates much the same. I seriously doubt we'll see any bending of the guidelines beyond 13 wins, for anyone.

I suspect the jun-yusho minimum for Baruto is 14-1, this being his first serious run at the promotion. 13-2 in a playoff loss may do it, I dunno.

Edit: And I largely agree with Naganoyama on the YDC - just the usual early headline-grabbing grandstanding by the YDC, no actual substance implied. Don't take it too seriously, folks.

Some relevant nonpromotions:

Takanohana 14:1Y-13:2D-no promotion (-12:3J)

Hakuho 14:1Y-13:2J-no promotion (-8:7)

That suggests that neither 13:2D nor 13:2J should be enough to promote after 2 basho. Note that the last precedent for 14-14 (with first J, second Y) was Haguroyama.

YDC has abundant leeway to call 14:1 a yusho equivalent. Not so much with 13:2.

[Kimyouzan 2]

Every rikishi wants to be a Yokozuna. I remember how others said that of Musashimaru back in the day. The current guys just can't cut it. If they could, they would in a flash. And Baruto will because he can.

If you say so....

I haven't been watching Sumo as long as most of you guys, but it just seems so impossible to me that ALL THE OZEKI just suck that much that they can't get more wins. I think part of it is mentally, they don't want the responsibility, since when there's a tsuna run these days they always choke.

Yokozuna Baruto would be good for sumo IMHO. Hakuho needs a "rival." HMF, Bart and Kise give him good fights, but it's a surprise if they win as Hakuho is pretty much "expected" to win because he's the Y. If Bart (or another) gets promoted, Hakuho immediately has a peer and mentally, I would think, that has to factor in. I miss the Hakuho-Asashoryu war on senshuraku. It reminded me of the excitement I felt as a kid when Kitanoumi and Wajima went head-to-head. Regardless if one was having a "bad" tournament, it was always a good bout.

I can't agree more. I really miss the days of two (or more) Yokozuna. Bart and Kise are my two best picks (although I really like Kotoshogiku). After them it's down to Myougiryu and Chiyotairyu :D

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kimyouzan

[Asameshimae 220]

Those who know him heard a lot from him that he was really serious this time about taking the yusho. You take such talk with a grain of salt, but look at him now. If he is as serious about making yokozuna as he was getting his first makuuchi yusho, who knows?

[Kintamayama 45,081]

Baruto held a press conference yesterday. He apparently caught a cold and was hoarse. "I was overjoyed. After getting one yusho I feel I want two and three and ten and twenty and thirty!" he said. It will soon be eight years since he arrived in Japan. "I'm really glad I came. I realized yesterday that it was not all in vain.. I will gambarize even more than I did till now," he added, hinting at his wish to become Yokozuna. As for next basho- "If I do my own sumo the results will follow.. Still, I have a lot to work on like my tachi-ai, and I'll try to keep in mind the various techniques,' he added.

"I hope his sumo will be of suitable quality, otherwise.." added Onoe Oyakata, this time seemingly in the correct lane.

Purple Haze:

So THERE'S the flag..

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Kuroyama 715]

it just seems so impossible to me that ALL THE OZEKI just suck that much that they can't get more wins.

I see what u did there...

But yeah, they kinda do. That plus the OBSC means that very often an ozeki will get fewer wins than he might, and ozeki who SHOULD be kadoban more often than they are keep their ranks when otherwise they might not.

Sumo has the Peter Principle built in. The higher promotion criteria for ozeki and yokozuna are an effort to forestall that for these privileged ranks: with a bigger hump to get over the hope is (evidently, as I see it) that they really are that good.

Well, maybe, maybe not. And then there's the occasional injury or other issue that brings out a substandard performance, or maybe they're just not all that consistent over the very long term.

I think part of it is mentally, they don't want the responsibility, since when there's a tsuna run these days they always choke.

Every time an ozeki wins a yusho people start talking about tsuna run when that's not necessarily called for, especially when that ozeki has showed no sign of particularly impressive or consistent performance before then while in the rank. It might not be so much choking as regressing to the mean.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kuroyama

[Kimyouzan 2]

Every time an ozeki wins a yusho people start talking about tsuna run when that's not necessarily called for, especially when that ozeki has showed no sign of particularly impressive or consistent performance before then while in the rank. It might not be so much choking as regressing to the mean.

Good point. I always thought it was premature, but guys like Hakuho and Asashoryu (who aside from Musashimaru are the only Yokozuna that I and others have ever experienced live) have kind of spoiled a lot of people in terms of expectations.

I guess I'm just annoyed with the Ozeki sometimes, as I'm sure others are too.

Anyway, go Baruto!!!

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, he looks ready for a real crack at the promotion. I've never seen his sumo so safe and steady. Why not? And even if he is homesick as Mario (through YBF) says, it won't matter a jot if he isn't all that successful at the top rank. After all, he can just retire and, erm...go home.

I've heard the hinkaku stuff quite a few times for Ozeki looking upwards, but they generally seem to grow into their responsibilities as yokozuna, in my experience, and it has never been a serious problem in the years I've been watching sumo. And I'm including Asashoryu here; I prefer to think of what he had as 'presence' or 'force of personality' more than anything else.

Sorry...I'm rambling off topic. It's an ST habit.

[Kuroyama 715]

I've heard the hinkaku stuff quite a few times for Ozeki looking upwards, but they generally seem to grow into their responsibilities as yokozuna, in my experience, and it has never been a serious problem in the years I've been watching sumo. And I'm including Asashoryu here; I prefer to think of what he had as 'presence' or 'force of personality' more than anything else.

I would tend to agree. My recollection may be faulty as I was rather new to sumo at the time, but I seem to remember pre-tsuna Hakuho as being rather less serious. No hinkaku complaints about him now, though.

[Asojima 2,874]

Personally, I have no qualms about Baruto's hinkaku, but Ozumo still relies on some very old, very staid contributors. The recent pics of a European Baruto laughing and clowning around, of a beautiful, blond wife prominently visible in a white kimono during ceremonies and of his wife driving his van for him will make many of these contributors uneasy. That is a simple, cultural fact-of-life in Japan. They expect a yokozuna to be a throwback to the era in which they grew up. Right now, the kyokai relies on these people for survival. The riji have to walk a fine line between their established base and the new base that they have to attract.

[Asameshimae 220]

From what I've seen heard and read, talks of whether candidates are worthy of the rope come up most of the time. Hakuho may have been an exception. It seems to me that it is more of a difficult decision for the kyokai to pick a yokozuna if the said candidate is riding the line performance wise. If they unassailable results on the dohyo, then from what I have seen it trumps other questions of hinkaku etc. If Baruto got a zensho yusho in the next basho (it's possible right?) I don't think there'd be any question of his promotion barring some huge scandal.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Asanomeshi

[Asojima 2,874]

If they unassailable results on the dohyo, then from what I have seen it trumps other questions of hinkaku etc. If Baruto got a zensho yusho in the next basho (it's possible right?) I don't think there'd be any question of his promotion barring some huge scandal.

Agree. If the record eventually leaves them no choice, the promotion will be made. If they have some wiggle room, hinkaku will play a big part in their decision.

[Orion 431]

From what I've seen heard and read, talks of whether candidates are worthy of the rope come up most of the time. Hakuho may have been an exception. It seems to me that it is more of a difficult decision for the kyokai to pick a yokozuna if the said candidate is riding the line performance wise.

It's an awfully long time ago, but wasn't it Kitanoumi who was warned to sit still and concentrate, and not let his eyes move around the spectators while he was waiting for his bout? There is a strong tendency to try to introduce one negative tone even when a promotion is otherwise unassailable. In theJapanese culture, if you promote somebody, or recommend somebody for a job, and that person proves to be unsuitable after all, _you_ are considered responsible. To my certain knowledge this has happened to two professor friends who, out of the kindness of their hearts, got somebody into a teaching post and were subsequently blamed for that person's failure. How much worse is the blame on a committee that promotes a bad yokozuna?

Just a thought. Orion

[Kuroyama 715]

How much worse is the blame on a committee that promotes a bad yokozuna?

That, of course, is one advantage of a committee. There's no one person to blame.

[Treblemaker 254]

It's just a matter of whether Baruto wants to be a Yok... Not whether he can do it or not. In the latter sense, he has all the weapons to accomplish this. He's displayed enough power and ring sense not to be lumped into the same "flash-in-the-pan" as HF and Osh, and his strength and size alone could trump not having the arsenal of moves and agility that a HF would bring to the table.

But... we all know of the advantages of staying an Ozeki. (See: Kaio, etc...)

Personally, I think Baruto can get a lot more mileage staying right where he is... Relying on strength and size alone - and getting a promotion to the Belted Rank - is a recipe for a short career once the power begins to vanish. There are only so many Asashoryu's.

However, I've been wrong before... Can't remember when. Must be very long ago....

[Jaak 7]

It's just a matter of whether Baruto wants to be a Yok... Not whether he can do it or not. In the latter sense, he has all the weapons to accomplish this. He's displayed enough power and ring sense not to be lumped into the same "flash-in-the-pan" as HF and Osh, and his strength and size alone could trump not having the arsenal of moves and agility that a HF would bring to the table.

But... we all know of the advantages of staying an Ozeki. (See: Kaio, etc...)

Personally, I think Baruto can get a lot more mileage staying right where he is... Relying on strength and size alone - and getting a promotion to the Belted Rank - is a recipe for a short career once the power begins to vanish.

Baruto has been heard to express a wish to retire early, go home and start farming.

If so, he has no desire to stretch out career by fighting on while injured like Kaio. To the contrary, a short and successful yokozuna career would fit him better than equally short but not so successful ozeki career.

[Kintamayama 45,081]

New judging bureau director Kagamiyama: "It would be Ok if he gets the yusho, the rest is in the contents. No yusho, no promotion!" Asked about Baruto's henka against Kisenosato: "It's understandable that he wanted the yusho, but that was bad. I'd like to see him go for it fair and square."

[Kuroyama 715]

New judging bureau director Kagamiyama: "It would be Ok if he gets the yusho, the rest is in the contents. No yusho, no promotion!" Asked about Baruto's henka against Kisenosato: "It's understandable that he wanted the yusho, but that was bad. I'd like to see him go for it fair and square."

Someone should have asked him about Hakuho's henka of Asashoryu during his tsuna run.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kuroyama

[Asameshimae 220]

Someone should have asked him about Hakuho's henka of Asashoryu during his tsuna run.

You got me thinking about that, and I went looking. I didn't find any bout you are referring to (my memory of individual bouts is not as good as I wish it was), because I stopped at this one. But I found a youtube video from 2008 of a playoff bout between the two where Hakuho henka'd Asa as bad as it gets. I must have been livid, but it rolled on by..... Anyway thanks for the reminder(s).

Edited February 4, 2012 by Otokonoyama
fixed quote tag

[Kuroyama 715]

You got me thinking about that, and I went looking. I didn't find any bout you are referring to (my memory of individual bouts is not as good as I wish it was), because I stopped at this one. But I found a youtube video from 2008 of a playoff bout between the two where Hakuho henka'd Asa as bad as it gets. I must have been livid, but it rolled on by..... Anyway thanks for the reminder(s).

It was the kettei-sen between the two of them at Haru basho, 2007.

It was arguably worse, because Hakuho HAD to win that yusho just to get a tsuna run started. Baruto's was optional, and I think he did it in reaction to the stupid games Kise was playing at the tachi-ai, not out of desperation to win.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Kuroyama

[Dr.Radical 16]

You got me thinking about that, and I went looking. I didn't find any bout you are referring to (my memory of individual bouts is not as good as I wish it was), because I stopped at this one. But I found a youtube video from 2008 of a playoff bout between the two where Hakuho henka'd Asa as bad as it gets. I must have been livid, but it rolled on by..... Anyway thanks for the reminder(s).

It was the kettei-sen between the two of them at Haru basho, 2007.

It was arguably worse, because Hakuho HAD to win that yusho just to get a tsuna run started. Baruto's was optional, and I think he did it in reaction to the stupid games Kise was playing at the tachi-ai, not out of desperation to win.

I seem to remember reading about this and how that smile at the end there on Asashoryu's face was due to him henka-ing Kise in a bout earlier in the tournament. Totally an "I see what you did there." moment.

[Igordemorais 75]

Kisenosato deserved it. He embarassed himself and Kotoshogiku also by acting the way he did. 2 Ozeki facing off and he does a henka? Really?

Then he pulls that little delay to imbalance Baruto`s focus.

He deserved it, come on.

[araibira 682]

Ten tournaments of the last six grand champions before Yokozuna promotion. Interpret these numbers at your own discretion. This list does not include tournaments where wrestlers were absent due to injuries. One could actually go into greater detail by pulling the stats of all Yokozuna (pre-promotion), and accurately transcribe Baruto's chances of becoming Yokozuna.

110-40:Asahifuji 73.33% win/loss ratio

100-50:Akebono 66.67% win/loss ratio

126-24:Takanohana 84% win/loss ratio

110-40: Musashimaru 73.33% win/loss ratio

107-43: Asashoryu 71.33% win/loss ratio

117-33: Hakuho 78% win/loss ratio

108-42: Baruto 72% win/loss ratio (pending on a 15-0 record in Osaka)

With the current state of sumo, struggling for fan appeal and recovering from countless scandals, the YDC along with NSK are definitely looking to promote a new Yokozuna. Hypothetically, if Baruto has the resolve to win at Osaka and becomes Yokozuna, look for a surge of athletes to come out of Estonia, bordering countries around it, and a new monetary gain from the number of fans which will be attracted to a European Yokozuna.

Edited February 7, 2012 by araibira