A few random questions about Sumo in general.

[Bugman 384]

Hello,

I thought i might ask a few questions about the sport, i realise i could just google this but in the interests of creating a little conversation i thought i would ask here, i also enjoy hearing facts straight from the experts as it were, a lot more interesting than just reading wiki, please feel free to answer any of them, doesn't have to be all, or ask your own :)

1.

A gyoji carries a knife as part of his attire, has there ever been a time in past history where a gyoji was unlucky enough to be ordered to kill himself for a bad call, or has the knife always simply been a symbolic reminder of how serious being a referee is? and if it did happen, who gets to give the order? (scary stuff) :-)

2.

Have there ever been any rikishi that were famous for something other than Sumo? were any wrestlers noted for being famous authors, or archers, painters, or even musicians perhaps? or does the intensity of Sumo life rarely leave time for other pursuits?

3.

For how long have the rules of Sumo remained more or less constant and recognisable as the Sumo of today? i've been led to understand through googling that in it's very earliest form Sumo involved punching and was somewhat rougher as a sport before being refined, (i may be wrong on this or have read erroneous information) if correct though, is anyone remembered as being the reformer or founder of todays rules?

4.

What was your first contact with Sumo, how did you become a fan? also, if you are a sports fan in general, do you think of Sumo as the same as any sport, or is there something special about it that sets it apart?

5.

Who is your all-time favourite wrestler if you were put on the spot and had to pick one? who embodies what Sumo means to you the best?

6.

This is a somewhat odd question, but i've sometimes seen rikishi attempt sweeps to the leg that almost look like a kick, is kicking allowed in sumo? and if not, where is the line drawn, what constitues a sweep, and at what point would it become an unacceptable kick? is it a case of "anything below the knee is fine"?

7.

Sometimes when the rikishi are not fighting, a man comes with a small box and appears to take sand from the centre of the ring, why does he do this, is there something special buried there in the centre of the ring?

8.

Why are some Ozeki "west" and some "east". what does this mean, is it a geographical location of their heya's, or is the dohyo itself placed along an east-west line and it just refers to their starting position, like blue-red corner in boxing, or is it something else?

Well that is all i can think of for now, no doubt later i will remember something i forgot to ask :)

Edited January 31, 2012 by Bugman

[Jejima 1,368]

1.

A gyoji carries a knife as part of his attire, has there ever been a time in past history where a gyoji was unlucky enough to be ordered to kill himself for a bad call, or has the knife always simply been a symbolic reminder of how serious being a referee is? and if it did happen, who gets to give the order? (scary stuff) :-)

I think it is just the two Tate-gyoji (who 'referee' the last three bouts) who carry the knife. I think they are supposedly prepared to commit suicide (so up to them), if they give a bad call. But, of course, this does not happen. Doreen will know more :-)

8.

Why are some Ozeki "west" and some "east". what does this mean, is it a geographical location of their heya's, or is the dohyo itself placed along an east-west line and it just refers to their starting position, like blue-red corner in boxing, or is it something else?

These days (in the past, there was a little more to it, I believe), it is basically that the East 1 Ozeki is ranked higher than the West 1 Ozeki, the East 2 Ozeki is ranked higher than the West 2 Ozeki and so on (actually true for all ranks). They will enter the dohyo from that side, unless they are fighting a rikishi from the same 'direction' who is ranked higher than them, in which case they swap sides. So, for the previous basho, Baruto, at Ozeki 1 East was the highest ranked Ozeki. He fought every day from the East side, except on the last day when he faced Hakuho, as Hakuho is also an East-side kind of guy (he gets to fight every day from the East), but is higher ranked.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Jejima

[Doitsuyama 1,178]

8.

Why are some Ozeki "west" and some "east". what does this mean, is it a geographical location of their heya's, or is the dohyo itself placed along an east-west line and it just refers to their starting position, like blue-red corner in boxing, or is it something else?

These days (in the past, there was a little more to it, I believe), it is basically that the East 1 Ozeki is ranked higher than the West 1 Ozeki, the East 2 Ozeki is ranked higher than the West 2 Ozeki and so on (actually true for all ranks). They will enter the dohyo from that side, unless they are fighting a rikishi from the same 'direction' who is ranked higher than them, in which case they swap sides. So, for the previous basho, Baruto, at Ozeki 1 East was the highest ranked Ozeki. He fought every day from the East side, except on the last day when he faced Hakuho, as Hakuho is also an East-side kind of guy (he gets to fight every day from the East), but is higher ranked.

You make it sound totally symbolic but there is indeed a physical separation. All East Rikishi are written on the right side of the banzuke, all West rikishi on the left side.

[Asashosakari 19,213]

3.

For how long have the rules of Sumo remained more or less constant and recognisable as the Sumo of today? i've been led to understand through googling that in it's very earliest form Sumo involved punching and was somewhat rougher as a sport before being refined, (i may be wrong on this or have read erroneous information) if correct though, is anyone remembered as being the reformer or founder of todays rules?

Hard to answer definitively. :-) Going back several centuries, there are a few different origins to which modern sumo can be traced back. What they all have in common is that they weren't really what we would consider a sport. There's the sumo that was performed for the benefit of high-ranking nobles which, while pretty martial and warrior-like (as were many things in those days, of course...), was more of a ritual event than an athletic performance and arguably an expression of sumo's origins as a (sometimes claimed to be self-defense) martial art, including all the usual effects of that, e.g. a rikishi in the employ of a low-ranking noble would probably think twice about beating an opponent who belonged to the court of a higher-ranking one, etc.

And then there's the sumo which was done mostly for entertainment purposes, somewhat similar to Western-style carnival wrestling. Sometimes it would be promoted purely for financial reasons, sometimes it might have been for charity (getting funds for renovation work on the many Shinto temples was a popular reason, especially as they often served as staging grounds for sumo events anyway), and some of it was probably more akin to 18/19th-century unrestricted prizefight boxing. Or for a more contemporary example, the somewhat chaotic beginnings of MMA in the early 1990s.

That entertainment type of sumo frequently came under fire due to its rough'n'tumble nature, at times being banned outright, more often being put under regulations that allowed its performance only with express permission of the local authorities. The ritual version of sumo lost importance as the "nobility landscape" of Japan became less fractured (I'm tempted to put this into the timeframe of the early Tokugawa shogunate, i.e. 17th century, but that's really out of my depth), and many of the rikishi-samurai who had been on retainer with nobles had to find alternative ways of living. As a result those two strains of old-time sumo slowly began to fuse into what then became professional sumo - which still wasn't a sport for much of that time, though. Basically, the carny wrestling comparison holds well into the 19th century, the main difference to the earlier days was that you now had well-recognized entities (including the predecessor of today's Kyokai) that would actually stage tournaments in a fairly regular way, with a cast of performers that remained relatively stable as well. Another, less seedy, comparison would perhaps be travelling theatre groups in England and elsewhere.

Kind of like professional wrestling nowadays, the goal of the rikishi arguably wasn't to prove athletic superiority, but rather superior audience appeal. Doesn't mean the results were necessarily scripted (though, let's just say the word "yaocho" isn't a modern invention), but rather that being the better performer was only one way to enhance your stature. That also means the rankings weren't really the meritocratic deal they are today...clearly superior rikishi who were proving themselves as audience draws would quickly ascend up the banzuke, of course, but for many others their position in the makuuchi division was more a matter of seniority. Taking a mid-1800s rikishi at random, you'll see that his ranking doesn't have a whole lot to do with his win-loss records. You proved yourself through an apprenticeship period of however long that took (in all the other divisions on the banzuke), then you were allowed into the makuuchi "club" as one of the regular performers.

The shift to a recognizable meritocratic system is typically connected to the first Takasago-oyakata - here's his profile as an active rikishi, a tenure that actually ended with him being expelled from the (Tokyo) sumo organization for demanding reforms. He built up his own stable of rikishi after that, and I'm not quite sure how he got back in, to be honest, but by the mid-1880s he'd managed to put himself into a position of power in the organization and was basically able to remake it in his own image. Juryo as its own division dates from those days - previously there was only the informal designation "jumaime" (ten ranks) for the upper ranks of makushita - as well as the notion that movements on the banzuke should mainly correspond to wins and losses.

So, depending on what you see as "recognizable as the sumo of today", the answer is either ca. 1750 (give or take a few decades), 1888, or perhaps 1926, which is the start of there being only a single, national professional sumo organization after Osaka-zumo basically stopped being viable on its own and was merged with (really, "into") the Tokyo organization. (Other longish-running groups based in Kyoto and Nagoya had already called it quits in the late 1800s.)

8.

Why are some Ozeki "west" and some "east". what does this mean, is it a geographical location of their heya's, or is the dohyo itself placed along an east-west line and it just refers to their starting position, like blue-red corner in boxing, or is it something else?

Connected to the origins of professional sumo - the early tournaments weren't a matter of individual performances, but rather an East vs. West affair, East being rikishi originating from Tokyo/Edo and surrounding provinces (in the Tokyo organization at least), West being rikishi from...I suppose "everything else" is a bit flip, but probably not far off the mark. Winner of the tournament was the side whose rikishi squad amassed the greater overall number of wins. That large flag today's yusho winners still receive dates back to those days as a designation of the winning side. Individual top performances only started being honoured as the "yusho" in 1909, and if I remember correctly were officially recognized at all only since 1890 or so. There's a "yushu" (best performance) designation that's getting applied to the winningest rikishi of tournaments prior to 1909, all the way back to the 18th century, but in part that's a retroactive application to historical records and in other parts it's (I believe) something that was only used as an unofficial designation in its own time.

Scheduling the bouts as strictly East vs. West actually lasted until well after 1909, despite the focus shifting from team to individual competition (I do believe the team flag was still awarded to the winning side though) - here's the record of the October 1931 yusho winner, you'll note that he was ranked on the East side and all his opponents were on the West. (It's a little more complicated actually, but I'll skip that...) In early 1932 a large number of rikishi walked out in a labour dispute, after which there just weren't enough rikishi left to maintain that East/West scheduling and the matchups were opened up to a greater degree. So nowadays, East and West only persist in the ranking designations - as Jejima said, East is considered the slightly more prestigious side, so M1e is above M1w which is above M2e, etc. I actually asked here on the forum a few years ago whether this "East is more prestigious" view was strictly a Tokyo view, and Osaka etc. might have looked at it differently, but we couldn't really find a satisfactory answer.

Anyway, the difference is still recognizable in how the ranks are referred to - whereas the English-translation habit is to name the ranks "division/rank number/side" (i.e. Maegashira / 1 / East) from most to least significant, the Japanese reference to it is still "East Maegashira 1", putting the side designation into the most significant spot even though it no longer holds that level of relevance.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Bugman 384]

Truly fascinating stuff Asashosakari, the depth and and breadth of your answer is awesome, and thank you very much guys for taking the time to answer, :-)

[Asashosakari 19,213]

Just to add one thing to the "recognizable as today's sumo" question - don't forget that the prevailing fighting styles depend a lot on what type of opposition you have to deal with. You only need to go back to before WWII, and among top division rikishi being taller than 180 cm and/or heavier than 120 kg was the clear exception, not the rule. That alone means sumo was (probably) a lot more fast-paced and more comparable to other head-to-head combat sports. I suspect if you transplanted a sumo fan from 1930 into today, he'd be rather stunned to see where the sport has gone competition-wise at the top professional level, probably moreso than somebody time-travelling the opposite direction.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Asojima 2,873]

Just to add one thing to the "recognizable as today's sumo" question - don't forget that the prevailing fighting styles depend a lot on what type of opposition you have to deal with. You only need to go back to before WWII, and among top division rikishi being taller than 180 cm and/or heavier than 120 kg was the clear exception, not the rule. That alone means sumo was (probably) a lot more fast-paced and more comparable to other head-to-head combat sports. I suspect if you transplanted a sumo fan from 1930 into today, he'd be rather stunned to see where the sport has gone competition-wise at the top professional level, probably moreso than somebody time-travelling the opposite direction.

I watched sumo in the 70's and then took about a 30 year viewing gap. There has been a major change in tactics and rikishi size in just that 40 years. The 70's was almost exclusively yotsu sumo. Tsuppari was normally a tactic only used until the rikishi to get locked in on his favorite belt hold. I am still less than entralled by the current style of sumo. It ain't the same!

And,

5. Definitely Wajima, followed closely by Hasegawa, Kaiketsu, Takanohana I and Washuyama.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Asojima

[Yubinhaad 11,629]

5. Who is your all-time favourite wrestler if you were put on the spot and had to pick one?

Hayateumi's seemingly effortless, hidden strength which allowed him to beat opponents far larger than himself. (I might just be looking back through rose-tinted spectacles here, it's been so long, but that's how I remember him.)

6. This is a somewhat odd question, but i've sometimes seen rikishi attempt sweeps to the leg that almost look like a kick, is kicking allowed in sumo? and if not, where is the line drawn, what constitues a sweep, and at what point would it become an unacceptable kick? is it a case of "anything below the knee is fine"?

There are kimarite that involve kicking or sweeping at the leg or feet, such as nimaigeri, susoharai and ketaguri/kekaeshi. As you said, anything below the knee is part of a perfectly legitimate technique. Such moves are very often bout-ending - either it works and the attacker wins, or it doesn't and the attacker is now off balance with one leg out of position and easily pushed out/down.

I can't imagine any rikishi, no matter how nutty, trying a kung fu special in the middle of a fast and frenetic sumo bout. Although it's probably just a matter of time before Takamisakari incorporates kicking himself up the backside into his pre-bout routine.

7. Sometimes when the rikishi are not fighting, a man comes with a small box and appears to take sand from the centre of the ring, why does he do this, is there something special buried there in the centre of the ring?

Several items are buried in what is called the dohyo matsuri ceremony before the basho starts. I'm sure I remember reading that they are collectively termed as shizumimono, hopefully someone with deeper insight can confirm or deny that. Anyway, the items buried include washed rice, salt, Jimmy Hoffa, chestnuts, sake, some other kind of nuts, and probably more that I don't know about. However, what the man with the small box is doing I don't know, I've never heard of that before.

[Asojima 2,873]

7. Sometimes when the rikishi are not fighting, a man comes with a small box and appears to take sand from the centre of the ring, why does he do this, is there something special buried there in the centre of the ring?

However, what the man with the small box is doing I don't know, I've never heard of that before.

He is removing excess dohyo material which tends to build up in the center of the dohyo due to the circular sweeping actions.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Asojima

[Orion 431]

7. Sometimes when the rikishi are not fighting, a man comes with a small box and appears to take sand from the centre of the ring, why does he do this, is there something special buried there in the centre of the ring?

However, what the man with the small box is doing I don't know, I've never heard of that before.

He is removing excess dohyo material which tends to build up in the center of the dohyo due to the circular sweeping actions.

In particular, he is cleaning up sand which has excessive salt in it, as this makes the dohyo slippery -- the very thing the sand is intended to prevent.

[Manekineko 200]

What was your first contact with Sumo, how did you become a fan? also, if you are a sports fan in general, do you think of Sumo as the same as any sport, or is there something special about it that sets it apart?

As for so many of us European fans, basho digests on Eurosport. As a Japanophile I started watching it from curiosity and got hooked afterwards.

I'm not really a big sports fan, but yeah, I see sumo as something a bit apart from "regular" sports. There is the sporty side, but there is more. Now, what exactly that "more" is... :-)

Who is your all-time favourite wrestler if you were put on the spot and had to pick one? who embodies what Sumo means to you the best?

These are two different questions. My all time favorite... I can't settle for just one. There is Wakanohana III. There is Kotonishiki. There is KaioU and there is KaihoU. There is Kyokutenho. There is Musashimaru. And Aminishiki, and and and... And each of them embodies some of what sumo means to me. No, I never could answer "what's your favorite..." questions properly.

[Bugman 384]

Thank you all for the answers, for my own part my favourite wrestler was Chiyonofuji the wolf! :) thats the rikishi i remember the most from when i used to watch Sumo on TV as a kid, i don't hear much about him these days, i find it kind of surprising he seems to be not as popular as i thought his previous fame might have made him.

[Asashosakari 19,213]

Thank you all for the answers, for my own part my favourite wrestler was Chiyonofuji the wolf! :) thats the rikishi i remember the most from when i used to watch Sumo on TV as a kid, i don't hear much about him these days

Are you sure you're looking in the right place? :-) The Kyokai elections thread has featured him (he's now Kokonoe-oyakata) quite prominently over the last few months.

[Asameshimae 220]

"Hayateumi's seemingly effortless, hidden strength which allowed him to beat opponents far larger than himself. (I might just be looking back through rose-tinted spectacles here, it's been so long, but that's how I remember him.)"

I didn't think there might be other big fans of Hayateumi out there. He is definitely one of my favorites ever. He could have gone really far without his injuries. Though I am a straight male, I also thought he was pretty darn dashing looking. : )

[Yubinhaad 11,629]

I didn't think there might be other big fans of Hayateumi out there. He is definitely one of my favorites ever. He could have gone really far without his injuries. Though I am a straight male, I also thought he was pretty darn dashing looking. : )

Hehe, he was a handsome fellow indeed. Putting my rose-tinted specs on again, at his peak he seemed to have such great timing and balance, and he had a certain air of calm and elegance about him. Alas that peak was very short due to injuries, as you say, and the remainder of his career was as much a battle against his own body as against his opponents. (I am not worthy...)

[Kotomikey 10]

This is a very good thread. It is helping me learn new things. Thanks

4.

What was your first contact with Sumo, how did you become a fan? also, if you are a sports fan in general, do you think of Sumo as the same as any sport, or is there something special about it that sets it apart?

In the late 90s ESPN had 30 minute Basho highlights. The first Basho I followed online was Aki 2001. Kotomitsuki won from M2e. He seemed to be a nice, humble guy.

5.

Who is your all-time favourite wrestler if you were put on the spot and had to pick one? who embodies what Sumo means to you the best?

Kotomitsuki became my favorite. Others are Kaio, Kotoshogiku, Kisenosato, Musashimaru and Terao.

[Jaak 7]

What was the position of gyoji and gyoji daggers/seppuku when both of these were common in civilian life?

I understand that gyoji could be involved as kabu owners - the two tate-gyoji were automatically entitled to kabu in Kyokai, presumably with accompanying profit share and vote, into 1950s, but it seems that junior gyoji were also permitted to purchase kabu and open their own heya if they wished.

The traditions of gyoji go back beyond the 1757 banzuke: the original Kimura Shonosuke and Shikimori Inosuke seem to have gained their fame in the first half of 18th century.

Now, the rikishi were and are honourary samurai as practitioners of a martial art. When samurai were legally and socially sharply demarcated from commoners in Edo period, some rikishi were samurai by birth and some were commoners, but the commoner rikishi were treated as honourary samurai in, for example, bearing surname and given name.

And gyoji as by their job literate people were also treated as honourary samurai in having surname and given name and at least in case of tate-gyoji wearing a dagger. By contrast yobidashi as commoner servants bear a single name.

Back in Edo period, when real, by birth samurai were permitted and routinely expected to bear arms in public, and seppuku for disgrace was a common means of suicide (bearing arms was forbidden in 1870s), is there any case of a gyoji actually going through with seppuku?

[Katooshu 3,201]

I was about to start another random questions thread, but I noticed this one and so will just post here.

I have only been following the sport for a year, and although previously that time has been sufficient for me to feel comfortable with my understanding of other sports, I still feel like a total noob when it comes to sumo.

1. I regularly notice Hiromasa, a lower division ranked yobidashi who is pictured below (thanks to Nagonyama for his great A-Z yearbook), working juryo and makuuchi matches. Does the rank of a yobidashi not always correspond to the bouts they work? Do they work all the bouts? Is he on some sort of training experience?

 

2. Wikipedia mentions that some kabu have been said to sell for up to 500 million yen. Does anyone know which kabu that/those may've been, or the specific price of other kabu that have sold? Also, when kabu are being loaned, as is the case for example with Arasio, is there a standard payment the owner gets in return?

3. Are there certain heya which are known to have particularly strict or disfunctional environments?

4. Do special prizes increase the basho bonus rikishi get, as kinboshi and zensho yusho do?

Thanks!

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Katooshu

[hamcornheinz 839]

42 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

3. Are there certain heya which are known to have particularly strict or disfunctional environments?

Hakuho's heya has had its share of controversy. 

[Bumpkin 438]

Katooshu;  Thank you for discovering this thread.  I have a bunch of questions to ask.

[Bumpkin 438]

Asashosakari;  With all your sumo knowledge, you really should write a book.  I, for one, would buy it.

[rhyen 1,833]

On 06/10/2016 at 10:08, Katooshu said:

I was about to start another random questions thread, but I noticed this one and so will just post here.

I have only been following the sport for a year, and although previously that time has been sufficient for me to feel comfortable with my understanding of other sports, I still feel like a total noob when it comes to sumo.

1. I regularly notice Hiromasa, a lower division ranked yobidashi who is pictured below (thanks to Nagonyama for his great A-Z yearbook), working juryo and makuuchi matches. Does the rank of a yobidashi not always correspond to the bouts they work? Do they work all the bouts? Is he on some sort of training experience?

 

 

Yobidashi ranks indicate which division/bouts they are allowed to step on the dohyo to announce the rikishi participating in the upcoming bouts.

Other than that, they also have a lot of other duties/legwork during the basho: changing the cushion for the sekitori; helping the shimpan get settled in, preparing them to leave; sweeping & cleaning the dohyo between matches; carrying kensho banners; refilling salt and water. This is pretty much done by the yobidashi ranked Makushita & below.

[Asashosakari 19,213]

2 hours ago, rhyen said:

Yobidashi ranks indicate which division/bouts they are allowed to step on the dohyo to announce the rikishi participating in the upcoming bouts.

Not just that same division, though. There are way more jonokuchi-ranked gyoji and yobidashi than can possibly work just the jonokuchi matches, for instance, so they're mainly officiating jonidan bouts.
 

On 6.10.2016 at 04:08, Katooshu said:

2. Wikipedia mentions that some kabu have been said to sell for up to 500 million yen. Does anyone know which kabu that/those may've been, or the specific price of other kabu that have sold? Also, when kabu are being loaned, as is the case for example with Arasio, is there a standard payment the owner gets in return?

I could be remembering wrong, but I think that number was rumoured at the height of the Futagoyama-beya dominance when the stable had something like 6 or 7 rikishi potentially eligible for future toshiyori status, and Futagoyama-oyakata was trying to buy up shares left, right and center for them. I think the more "regular" market prices were in the 200 milion range in the 1990s and early 2000s. It's virtually impossible to find exact numbers though since the details of these private transactions were never required to be reported. 175 million was set as the value in the Tatsunami succession dispute, for what that's worth.

Same goes for loan arrangements. However, the numbers I've seen rumoured in the past were surprisingly high. An entry-level oyakata earns about 800,000 yen in monthly salary from the position, and the claimed loan payments were something like 300-500,000 yen per month. I have no idea how accurate that was, of course.

And I don't know how loans work right now at all. The practice was actually meant to be completely forbidden now, after the Kyokai underwent certain transparency changes a few years ago, but apparently they have quietly backtracked from that again. So not a clue how much money (if any) Kisenosato is getting for his renting out of the Araiso kabu to Tamaasuka.
 

4. Do special prizes increase the basho bonus rikishi get, as kinboshi and zensho yusho do?

Nope.

[Katooshu 3,201]

A very delayed thanks for al lthe responses! It's great to have sumo experts like this to help me learn the sport.

[Katooshu 3,201]

One thing I've wondered about is how rikishi have their height measured. Is there a convention in sumo and/or Japan to measure above the highest point of the head? When looking at how the new recruits are measured, I regularly see stuff like below. That seems like a good way to get 189 cm (Ishibashi's listed height) for someone who is really only 185/186cm.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Katooshu