Lifestyle of Muslim rikishi; split from Osunaarashi thread

[DawidPoland 1]

Only if a Muslim from Egypt can eat chanko Nabe and Sake? (Whatever above, it is funny...)

[Orion 431]

Only if a Muslim from Egypt can eat chanko Nabe and Sake? B-)

A Jew from Argentina did. (Holiday feeling...)

[Masumasumasu 902]

Only if a Muslim from Egypt can eat chanko Nabe and Sake? B-)

A Jew from Argentina did. (Holiday feeling...)

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

Shalom

[Kintamayama 44,652]

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

Shalom

That is not accurate, to put it mildly. There are many Egyptian Muslims who are totally secular. They were at the forefront of the last revolution. How it will all end is another story, but to say there are no secular Muslims in Egypt is a bit far-fetched. In any case, there is nothing in Sumo that can cause problems for him as a Muslim, except that a tournament will be held during the Ramadan. He already addressed that and said he will manage. What in Sumo will cause him "to renounce Islam"? Egypt has had a very strong amateur team for many years and has thousands of youngsters doing sumo.

I don't see the problem.

[Kuroyama 715]

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

There's a "Shinto lifestyle" now? Apart from the personnel of Shinto temples, no not really. It's said that in Japan you're born in Shinto, marry as a Christian, and die a Buddhist.

As for "secular Muslims", in every religion there are people who are formal adherents but who only make minimal observances. The "twice-a-year" Christian is well-known in the United States. It would be shocking if every single person in the world who counts themselves Muslim were totally, utterly devoted to it. Very likely it's not true for most of them any more than it is for most Christians.

However, Boody does at least do his daily prayers, and clearly has no intention of "renouncing Islam".

[Masumasumasu 902]

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

Shalom

There are many Egyptian Muslims who are totally secular.

There are secular Arabs but there is no such thing as a secular Muslim.

Maybe the Egyptian rikishi is a closet secularist, but if he's a Muslim, there will indeed be a conflict.

Still, I wish him well. :-)

Edited April 9, 2012 by Masumasumasu

[Masumasumasu 902]

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

There's a "Shinto lifestyle" now? Apart from the personnel of Shinto temples, no not really. It's said that in Japan you're born in Shinto, marry as a Christian, and die a Buddhist.

As for "secular Muslims", in every religion there are people who are formal adherents but who only make minimal observances. The "twice-a-year" Christian is well-known in the United States. It would be shocking if every single person in the world who counts themselves Muslim were totally, utterly devoted to it. Very likely it's not true for most of them any more than it is for most Christians.

However, Boody does at least do his daily prayers, and clearly has no intention of "renouncing Islam".

You're right. He could very well just be 'pretending' to be a Muslim. After all, non-Muslims are not very well liked in Egypt.

[Fay 1,677]

Strange new entries in the sumo forum lately ...

I can't see that other foreigner's should have less problems in the sumo world than a muslim. All what I read and hear from him is that he is a practicing muslim and everyone in the stable is considerate of it.

Maybe tolerance of all parts is the magic word?

[Kintamayama 44,652]

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

There's a "Shinto lifestyle" now? Apart from the personnel of Shinto temples, no not really. It's said that in Japan you're born in Shinto, marry as a Christian, and die a Buddhist.

As for "secular Muslims", in every religion there are people who are formal adherents but who only make minimal observances. The "twice-a-year" Christian is well-known in the United States. It would be shocking if every single person in the world who counts themselves Muslim were totally, utterly devoted to it. Very likely it's not true for most of them any more than it is for most Christians.

However, Boody does at least do his daily prayers, and clearly has no intention of "renouncing Islam".

You're right. He could very well just be 'pretending' to be a Muslim. After all, non-Muslims are not very well liked in Egypt.

Please explain how you reached this "conclusion" from what Kuroyama wrote??

[Asashosakari 18,998]

This is what happens when people try to apply broad generalities 1:1 to individual cases. Suppose it's just a different type of armchair quarterbacking, as it were.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Strange new entries in the sumo forum lately ...

I can't see that other foreigner's should have less problems in the sumo world than a muslim. All what I read and hear from him is that he is a practicing muslim and everyone in the stable is considerate of it.

Maybe tolerance of all parts is the magic word?

The problem isn't the stablemates at all. I'm sure they're quite tolerant. The potential problem that I see is in regard to this man's religion. After all, how many religious people have actually made it in sumo.

I wish him all the best but if he really is a Muslim there can only be a conflict. Islam and sumo are simply not compatible. What happens if prayers and sumo need to be done at the same time? A choice between the two will have to be made. Muslims are forbidden from drinking (no sake) and I would imagine that a great deal of Japanese food would be forbidden, too.

We're speaking of the first ever Muslim rikishi. You may disagree with my posts but they are still relevant. I wouldn't call them 'strange' at all.

[Masumasumasu 902]

The Egyptian Islamic lifestyle is in no way similar to the Japanese Shinto lifestyle. If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam. There are many secular and even atheistic Jews but there are no secular Muslims.

There's a "Shinto lifestyle" now? Apart from the personnel of Shinto temples, no not really. It's said that in Japan you're born in Shinto, marry as a Christian, and die a Buddhist.

As for "secular Muslims", in every religion there are people who are formal adherents but who only make minimal observances. The "twice-a-year" Christian is well-known in the United States. It would be shocking if every single person in the world who counts themselves Muslim were totally, utterly devoted to it. Very likely it's not true for most of them any more than it is for most Christians.

However, Boody does at least do his daily prayers, and clearly has no intention of "renouncing Islam".

You're right. He could very well just be 'pretending' to be a Muslim. After all, non-Muslims are not very well liked in Egypt.

Please explain how you reached this "conclusion" from what Kuroyama wrote??

What I'm saying is that an observant Muslim could never make it in Sumo because of religious conflicts. This man could be a Muslim in name only. Time will tell. I wish him well.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Masu!

In my experience, things are never so cut and dried. The man may have found a way to get around this problem in ways you have not considered. It is generally wise to withhold judgment until you ask him face-to-face. No?

[Masumasumasu 902]

Masu!

In my experience, things are never so cut and dried. The man may have found a way to get around this problem in ways you have not considered. It is generally wise to withhold judgment until you ask him face-to-face. No?

I'm not judging, certainly not. I actually wish him the best. I hope that he becomes the greatest Yokozuna whoever lived but that's going to require becoming Japanese (or at least as close to it as possible).

Edited April 9, 2012 by Masumasumasu

[Kintamayama 44,652]

I'm not judging, certainly not. I actually wish him the best. I hope that he becomes the greatest Yokozuna whoever lived but that's going to require becoming Japanese (or at least as close to it as possible).

Akebono never became Japanese. Musashimaru never became Japanese. And I'm not talking citizenship. Asashouryuu certainly made a point of not becoming Japanese or anything close to it. As for forbidden from drinking, Jews are forbidden from eating pork. Some do. I personally know quite a few Muslims that can drink anyone under the table. As for food, he can't eat pork, but other than that I don't see any problems. It's not that he has to adhere to strict Kosher laws (shellfish, pork, not mixing dairy with meat, etc.. etc.., or resting on the Sabbath, for that matter). I still don't see the problems you are foreseeing, but as you say, time will tell and I'll leave it at that.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Masumasumasu 902]

I'm not judging, certainly not. I actually wish him the best. I hope that he becomes the greatest Yokozuna whoever lived but that's going to require becoming Japanese (or at least as close to it as possible).

Akebono never became Japanese. Musashimaru never became Japanese. And I'm not talking citizenship. Asashouryuu certainly made a point of not becoming Japanese or anything close to it. As for forbidden from drinking, Jews are forbidden from eating pork. Some do. I personally know quite a few Muslims that can drink anyone under the table. As for food, he can't eat pork, but other than that I don't see any problems. It's not that he has to adhere to strict Kosher laws (shellfish, pork, not mixing dairy with meat, etc.. etc.., or resting on the Sabbath, for that matter). I still don't see the problems you are foreseeing, but as you say, time will tell and I'll leave it at that.

Akebono and Musashimaru certainly became much more Japanese than they would have had they stayed in Hawaii and Asashoryu was thrown out for the reasons you stated.

Hakuho is the greater Mongolian Yokozuna in my opinion because he understands that although Sumo has sporting elements, it is not a sport. He is elegant, graceful and dignified. He doesn't tend to bully people the way that Asashoryu does.

The Greatest Yokozuna should be no less than a Saint.

[Kuroyama 715]

What I'm saying is that an observant Muslim could never make it in Sumo because of religious conflicts. This man could be a Muslim in name only. Time will tell. I wish him well.

What religious conflicts? He's saying his prayers at the appointed time. He's not eating pork. What exactly do you have in mind?

[Asashosakari 18,998]

I wish him all the best but if he really is a Muslim there can only be a conflict. Islam and sumo are simply not compatible.

It may help your argument if you stated your qualifications for making that judgement, given that it's rather far-reaching.

[Fay 1,677]

He does his prayers, he doesn't eat pork and they cook chanko with other ingredients and he doesn't drink alcohol. Even at the ceremony on senshuraku where all the new rikishi are on the dohyo, he didn't drink the sake but gave it along to his neighbour... and sigh, no problem with all the Oyakata on the dohyo ...

What is it that doesn't make sumo compatible to religion???

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Masu: I agree with Asashosakari and Fay - you have made extremely sweeping statements and they need to be qualified with facts, not just opinions. Until you have observed his daily life for a few weeks, such statements are meaningless as, frankly, you don't know the reality of what goes on in his life, and the reactions of those around him. I think you'll find that things like 'shinto lifestyle' and so on are not as rigidly adhered to in everyday life as you might think - I say that as someone who has personal knowledge of sumo going back almost three decades, along with 16 years of living in Japan. Instead of making these sweeping statements, wouldn't a better approach be to ask people like Fay or Nishinoshima, people who know the guy and the people around him, before saying things like, ' If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam'. I trust the opinions of these people as they have proved time and time again that they know what they are talking about, backed up with personal knowledge and long experience.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Masu: I agree with Asashosakari and Fay - you have made extremely sweeping statements and they need to be qualified with facts, not just opinions. Until you have observed his daily life for a few weeks, such statements are meaningless as, frankly, you don't know the reality of what goes on in his life, and the reactions of those around him. I think you'll find that things like 'shinto lifestyle' and so on are not as rigidly adhered to in everyday life as you might think - I say that as someone who has personal knowledge of sumo going back almost three decades, along with 16 years of living in Japan. Instead of making these sweeping statements, wouldn't a better approach be to ask people like Fay or Nishinoshima, people who know the guy and the people around him, before saying things like, ' If this man is really a Muslim, there is no way that he can possibly make it in Sumo unless he chooses to renounce Islam'. I trust the opinions of these people as they have proved time and time again that they know what they are talking about, backed up with personal knowledge and long experience.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion.

Peace

[Masumasumasu 902]

What is it that doesn't make sumo compatible to religion???

Sumo is a way of life. So is Islam. It simply isn't possible to straddle two ways of life when you only have one life to live.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

I'm not judging, certainly not. I actually wish him the best. I hope that he becomes the greatest Yokozuna whoever lived but that's going to require becoming Japanese (or at least as close to it as possible).

Akebono never became Japanese. Musashimaru never became Japanese. And I'm not talking citizenship. Asashouryuu certainly made a point of not becoming Japanese or anything close to it. As for forbidden from drinking, Jews are forbidden from eating pork. Some do. I personally know quite a few Muslims that can drink anyone under the table. As for food, he can't eat pork, but other than that I don't see any problems. It's not that he has to adhere to strict Kosher laws (shellfish, pork, not mixing dairy with meat, etc.. etc.., or resting on the Sabbath, for that matter). I still don't see the problems you are foreseeing, but as you say, time will tell and I'll leave it at that.

Akebono and Musashimaru certainly became much more Japanese than they would have had they stayed in Hawaii and Asashoryu was thrown out for the reasons you stated.

Hakuho is the greater Mongolian Yokozuna in my opinion because he understands that although Sumo has sporting elements, it is not a sport. He is elegant, graceful and dignified. He doesn't tend to bully people the way that Asashoryu does.

The Greatest Yokozuna should be no less than a Saint.

Sorry mods...this topic may need to be split??

'Becoming Japanese' and 'becoming more Japanese' are different concepts and can't be compared directly. Also, Asashoryu was not 'thrown out' for not 'being Japanese'...he was told in no uncertain terms that he had to retire for 'being Asashoryu' one time too many.

As for the 'greatest yokozuna' being a saint, I think you mean that his public image should take a saintly form. Hakuho may well be a saint every minute of the day; I have no idea, but he does a good job of coming across like one to the public. However, each to his own - I personally preferred Asashoryu, despite his character flaws. You have to remember that the press did a real hatchet job on him and generally focused on the negative stories (and there were, of course, many). I heard a story once - don't know if it is true - from a journalist I know...he said that sometimes at press conferences, tabloid journalists addressed Asashoryu in quite rude ways in order to get an angry/cold reaction for juicy copy. The lad never stood a chance. I know for a fact that Asashoryu did many very good and kind things as a yokozuna as well.

Everyone, even the Japanese, will disagree on who the best yokozuna are and why. I know quite a few very respectable, elderly Japanese sumo fans who absolutely adored Asashoryu, despite knowing full well that he was no 'saint'.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. Peace

Yes, I know I am!! So are you going to qualify your statements with facts or what?

What is it that doesn't make sumo compatible to religion???

Sumo is a way of life. So is Islam. It simply isn't possible to straddle two ways of life when you only have one life to live.

I would like to know how you are qualified to make a statement like this. Do you have intimate knowledge of both worlds? Sumo as a way of life is simply not as rigid as you might think from the documentaries, guide books and PR. While bound by rules, they are also in many ways just ordinary guys and will behave as such when the cameras are off - which they are most of the time.

[alaninjapan 18]

I'm not judging, certainly not. I actually wish him the best. I hope that he becomes the greatest Yokozuna whoever lived but that's going to require becoming Japanese (or at least as close to it as possible).

, Jews are forbidden from eating pork. Some do. I personally know quite a few Muslims that can drink anyone under the table. As for food, he can't eat pork, but other than that I don't see any problems. It's not that he has to adhere to strict Kosher laws (shellfish, pork, not mixing dairy with meat, etc.. etc.., or resting on the Sabbath, for that matter). I still don't see the problems you are foreseeing, but as you say, time will tell and I'll leave it at that.

As I understand it Islamic law requires animals to be ritually slaughtered, producing "halal" meat, similar to kosher meats. By the way, the Old Testament(Jewish) dietary laws should apply equally to Christians if they follow the whole bible but thats a whole new kettle of religiously appropriate fish. I doubt that the heya has previously ordered any halal products but I assume with somewhere as big as Tokyo this would not be impossible.

As to "being Muslim", I suspect you would get very different answers from a Saudi, a Turk, an Indonesian etc.

At my school, there were Muslims form Brunei and Malaysia who fit in their prayers around school life quite comfortably, with separate meal times during Ramadan. Strict observance of Ramadan during a basho could prove tricky, especially when it falls during the heat of summer, but it is possible to be excused on the grounds of travel, sickness and others so it must be possible to be excused for other reasons too. A sense of perspective and the all too rare common sense would seem to cover most grey areas.....

Edited April 10, 2012 by Otokonoyama