Kotooshu kyujo discussion (split from absence report)

[Kuroyama 715]

In fairness, it's always a good idea to expect Kotooshu to lose if he's at 8 wins and >3 losses, unless his opponent is an ozeki in a similar don't-care position...

In fairness, he can do his goddamn job.

In fairness, he can't and hasn't been able to for a long time.

His job isn't necessarily to win, although that's what you expect much more often than not from an ozeki. His job is to get out there and fight, and do his best to give the audience their money's worth. It's certainly not to beg out on the last day over what seems to have been a minor injury and screw up what could have been the most exciting finale in years.

I'm amazed his shisho allowed him to get away with it. And what makes it especially embarrassing is the example set by the yokozuna this basho. It's THIS kind of crap more than anything else, I think, that has turned people away from sumo, when the very people you expect to be giving the most instead give the least.

[Kintamayama 45,119]

His job isn't necessarily to win, although that's what you expect much more often than not from an ozeki. His job is to get out there and fight, and do his best to give the audience their money's worth. It's certainly not to beg out on the last day over what seems to have been a minor injury and screw up what could have been the most exciting finale in years.

I'm amazed his shisho allowed him to get away with it. And what makes it especially embarrassing is the example set by the yokozuna this basho. It's THIS kind of crap more than anything else, I think, that has turned people away from sumo, when the very people you expect to be giving the most instead give the least.

I think you may be jumping to conclusions without having all the facts. Sadogatake would never have allowed him to play hookie if he were half-decent, not under these circumstances- he has everyone to answer to and he was severely admonished publicly anyway. I have it on pretty good authority that he couldn't even stand on the leg as it swelled and the pain was supposedly unbearable.

I don't think Kotooushuu is the epitome of hard work and dedication but in this case I am cutting him some slack.

Additionally, if you watch the day 14 video at the end of his bout after Kyokutenhou tossed him like a rag doll, you can see Kyokutenhou standing for quite a while with a worried look as Osh is very slow to get up. We don't see Osh at all, but you can tell by Kyokutenhou's look that it wasn't good.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Naganoyama 5,911]

My sentiments exactly! Whereas it is not possible for Kotooshu to learn Hakuho's mental strength, he could at least try to develop his sense of duty. I suppose at least that Sadogatake must have been persuaded that he was unfit to fight or he wouldn't have let it happen.

Edit:

My comments were directed at Kuroyama but I was beaten to it.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Naganoyama

[Asashosakari 19,320]

FWIW, a guy that Sadogatake did allow to step onto the dohyo currently looks like this:

[Asashosakari 19,320]

Which doesn't mean that his injury was better or worse. He also returned to the basho, but was missing for a couple of days. No comparison-they both missed their bouts the day after they got injured. It's possible if this were day 6 that Osh would have returned after a few days. As your favorite saying goes- apples and oranges sir.

I'm on your side of the argument. :-) What I was getting at is that Kotoyuki still looks pretty banged up even now, so if that's what a Sadogatake rikishi sort-of fit to fight looks like, I'm assuming that Kotooshu was in worse ways. FWIW, Kotoyuki has told his local paper much the same about himself as you were surmising about Osh - massive swelling, couldn't even walk at first, etc. So I agree, if Osh's injury was something similar he probably also would have rejoined a few days later, it just wasn't possible as it only happened on Day 14.

[Asashosakari 19,320]

FWIW, the official diagnosis handed in after day 14 spoke of ligament damage in Osh's right ankle with an estimated recovery time of 3 weeks, but according to Sponichi heya personnel is now fearing it could be worse than that and even put his Nagoya participation in doubt.

[Kintamayama 45,119]

Which doesn't mean that his injury was better or worse. He also returned to the basho, but was missing for a couple of days. No comparison-they both missed their bouts the day after they got injured. It's possible if this were day 6 that Osh would have returned after a few days. As your favorite saying goes- apples and oranges sir.

I'm on your side of the argument. :-) What I was getting at is that Kotoyuki still looks pretty banged up even now, so if that's what a Sadogatake rikishi sort-of fit to fight looks like, I'm assuming that Kotooshu was in worse ways. FWIW, Kotoyuki has told his local paper much the same about himself as you were surmising about Osh - massive swelling, couldn't even walk at first, etc. So I agree, if Osh's injury was something similar he probably also would have rejoined a few days later, it just wasn't possible as it only happened on Day 14.

Yeah, i deleted my post of dumbness when I realized my mistake. Sorry sir.

[Kintamayama 45,119]

FWIW, the official diagnosis handed in after day 14 spoke of ligament damage in Osh's right ankle with an estimated recovery time of 3 weeks, but according to Sponichi heya personnel is now fearing it could be worse than that and even put his Nagoya participation in doubt.

If he misses Nagoya it will be because he is appeasing the masses after his hasty cowardly retreat, they will now say..

[Masumasumasu 902]

FWIW, the official diagnosis handed in after day 14 spoke of ligament damage in Osh's right ankle with an estimated recovery time of 3 weeks, but according to Sponichi heya personnel is now fearing it could be worse than that and even put his Nagoya participation in doubt.

If he misses Nagoya it will be because he is appeasing the masses after his hasty cowardly retreat, they will now say..

No. If he misses Nagoya it is because he is a milquetoast.

[Kuroyama 715]

I think you may be jumping to conclusions without having all the facts.

I certainly was. It seemed weird that no information was available at the time, that the withdrawal happened so late, and that even at the time I wrote there seemed to be nothing. If what people are NOW saying is true, then it was perhaps necessary to pull out, but I'd have thought that for a withdrawal with such drastic consequences some explanation would have been immediately forthcoming.

If it turns out to be as serious as they're saying, then I 'm sorry for having been so harsh, but not for thinking he's a flaccid ozeki overall.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Kuroyama

[Borislav 4]

No. If he misses Nagoya it is because he is a milquetoast.

Excuse me, Mister, but do you completely deny the possibility that someone might get badly hurt after being thrown off a one meter high stage by a 150 kg guy?

I think you are being too harsh on Kotooshu. He is just a clumsy Bulgarian guy aproaching his 30's, putting a priority on his family duties as a son, husband and now as a father. You all know the stories how he was sending money home and how he bought his father a new car. And you have seen how proudly he was posing for a picture with his son with the little kesho mawashi. For a simple Bulgarian guy like Kotooshu this is what "hinkaku" means, and I find this cool.

His sumo is quite displeasing and inadequate recently, but still...

PS: On a second thought, maybe this is the definition of "milquetoast", who knows...

[Yubinhaad 11,684]

Proper translation of this Nikkan article would be very much appreciated. From what I can get out of it at this late hour, Kotooshu has sustained a fracture of the right leg. No x-ray was performed on Day 14 which is why the injury was initially reported as a foot problem with a three-week recovery.

When it was later realised (due to the pain and swelling, I guess) that it was much more serious, an x-ray was performed and the fracture discovered. Kotooshu is not in hospital and is resting; participation in the Nagoya basho is in real doubt. One particular issue is a distinct lack of crutches for a man standing 202cm tall. (Shaking head...)

[Kintamayama 45,119]

Proper translation of this Nikkan article would be very much appreciated. From what I can get out of it at this late hour, Kotooshu has sustained a fracture of the right leg. No x-ray was performed on Day 14 which is why the injury was initially reported as a foot problem with a three-week recovery.

When it was later realised (due to the pain and swelling, I guess) that it was much more serious, an x-ray was performed and the fracture discovered. Kotooshu is not in hospital and is resting; participation in the Nagoya basho is in real doubt. One particular issue is a distinct lack of crutches for a man standing 202cm tall. (Shaking head...)

Your translation is correct. Just to add: "Kotooushuu always entered in the past, even with serious injuries like an arm or a collarbone fracture. The fact he went kyujo this time just proves how really serious his injury was", said a heya official.

"Whatever I will say at this time will sound like an excuse, so just leave it at that," said Sadogatake.

The new diagnosis asks for a month of rest.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Naganoyama 5,911]

This all makes much more sense, but it definitely could have been handled much better (meaning with clearer information being given out), given how it affected the yusho situation.

[Asashosakari 19,320]

From what I can get out of it at this late hour, Kotooshu has sustained a fracture of the right leg.

Foot, I believe. If I'm piecing things together correctly, they initially thought he had damaged one of the ligaments on top of his foot, but instead it's a fracture of one of the (I think tarsus) bones right underneath.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Fukurou 534]

From what I can get out of it at this late hour, Kotooshu has sustained a fracture of the right leg.

Foot, I believe. If I'm piecing things together correctly, they initially thought he had damaged one of the ligaments on top of his foot, but instead it's a fracture of one of the (I think tarsus) bones right underneath.

As for how long he could be out, here might be a reasonable comparison: there's a report that Hakeem Nicks of the NFL's New York Giants broke the 5th metatarsal bone in his right foot while running during a practice earlier today. They're going to have to do surgery to insert a screw in the broken bone. He's expected to be out for 12 weeks.

(ps to the moderators - is there some way to break out the discussion of Kotooshu and his injury from the general announcement of the Natsu basho injuries? I'd kind of like to lock the in-basho announcement thread, but don't want to kill the Kotoosho discussion. And maybe separating things might make it easier for interested parties to find that ongoing discussion)

Edited May 24, 2012 by Fukurou

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

(ps to the moderators - is there some way to break out the discussion of Kotooshu and his injury from the general announcement of the Natsu basho injuries? I'd kind of like to lock the in-basho announcement thread, but don't want to kill the Kotoosho discussion. And maybe separating things might make it easier for interested parties to find that ongoing discussion)

Done.

[Jejima 1,384]

Different sport, but....

There was one Wimbledon final (I forget which) between the Williams sisters when Venus wanted to withdraw before it because of a serious leg injury (thereby forfeiting to Serena), but the Wimbledon officials told her that was not the done thing for the final. She turned up, and duly lost - but gave the fans something.

Unless Osh had a broken leg, I would have liked to have seen him turn up, no matter what his condition (would he have withdrawn if he had a 7-7 record, I wonder? If yes, then maybe I am being too harsh, *maybe*).

Edited May 25, 2012 by Jejima

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Reminds me of a certain Yokozuna winning the kettei-sen despite a severe knee injury...

(not a fair comparison, I know)

[botev1921 33]

Some people here are terrible. I would suggest, you know-it-alls, break a foot and then go out there to wrestle a 140kg guy out of respect for the yusho race! Are you stupid or what? Why on Earth would someone risk not his future in sport, but possibly his ability to walk just to please a bunch of morons like you guys? Kotooshu is unfortunately in a bad state and as of today he seems likely to miss Nagoya!

[yorikiried by fate 2,028]

Well, Hakuho even wrestled 200kg guys with a broken finger that even jumped from one hand to the other!

And all he ever said was: "Can I hold your flag?"

[Torabayama 51]

There's a lot of name calling going on in this thread. I'm sure there are more effective ways to disagree with forum members' opinions and actions of certain rikishi.

[iron bug 8]

There's a lot of name calling going on in this thread. I'm sure there are more effective ways to disagree with forum members' opinions and actions of certain rikishi.

Agreed. Ultimately, I think nobody has the right to say whether he should or shouldn't have participated. That is left up to the man himself. I've had plenty of injuries that others have scoffed at but they were serious, debilitating injuries which prevented basic things like sneezing or coughing or even getting in and out of bed without EXTREME pain (torn oblique muscle). Something like a simple sprained ankle, although not serious in the long-run, can be so rough in the initial days of the injury that competing is completely out of the question. Even the strongest of wills cannot change the fact that the human body can only handle so much abuse before forcing one to realize that moving, let alone competing in high level sporting events, is not in their best interest.

We will simply never know the extent of pain the man was in and, therefore, cannot base an accurate argument against him not competing.

[Dr.Radical 16]

I really think in a situation like this you just have to give Kotooshu the benefit of the doubt. Have rikishi wrestled with injury in the past? Sure, but it doesn't mean they necessarily should have. I appreciate a rikishi feeling he is obliged to do so and the sheer will and toughness is admirable, but I really don't want to see someone's career end because of something like that. It's like in basketball or football when someone gets a concussion and still plays because people see it as "oh, he just got his bell rung." It's a brain injury for christ's sake. It's cool you're dedicated to your team and fans, but you really need to be careful. I know a foot injury is not the same as a brain injury, but you get my point. Along with that, I think we got a pretty damn good basho this time, regardless of whether or not Tochiozan had to face Kotooshu. It was feel-good all around!

[Masumasumasu 902]

Some people here are terrible. I would suggest, you know-it-alls, break a foot and then go out there to wrestle a 140kg guy out of respect for the yusho race! Are you stupid or what? Why on Earth would someone risk not his future in sport, but possibly his ability to walk just to please a bunch of morons like you guys? Kotooshu is unfortunately in a bad state and as of today he seems likely to miss Nagoya!

I did ten years of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu while suffering from severe rheumatoid arthritis. No pay but lots of pain. I persisted. Oh, how I wish that I could only have a foot booboo instead of a relentless and crippling autoimmune disease that gets worse with every passing year.

Kotoushu's days as a rikishi are quickly running out and his kyujo decision was a disasterous mistake in my opinion.

Future ability to walk? Is his foot gangrenous?