Steroids in sumo - ONE man has it figured out

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho is a thoroughly reprehensible degenerate reprobate. His henka against Kisenosato was cowardly beyond belief. Go home, steroid user.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Otokonoyama
Split topic

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hooray, two roid-heads in the final!

[kuroimori 1,634]

Hakuho is a thoroughly reprehensible degenerate reprobate. His henka against Kisenosato was cowardly beyond belief. Go home, steroid user.

*cough* You might want to change your signature line...

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho is a thoroughly reprehensible degenerate reprobate. His henka against Kisenosato was cowardly beyond belief. Go home, steroid user.

*cough* You might want to change your signature line...

I'll keep that in mind.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hooray, two roid-heads in the final!

I'm sure you have proof of this...? (Besides the usual "Oh, it's obvious to everyone")

There is simply no way to put on the kind of weight that Hakuho did without 'help'. Working out and eating a lot only goes so far.

[Maguroyama 27]

Hooray, two roid-heads in the final!

I'm sure you have proof of this...? (Besides the usual "Oh, it's obvious to everyone")

There is simply no way to put on the kind of weight that Hakuho did without 'help'. Working out and eating a lot only goes so far.

Yes, rapid weight gain - virtually unheard of in the world of sumo. I bow to your superior evidence.

[Asashosakari 19,661]

Don't feed.

[Igordemorais 75]

Well on the issue of steroids, let's cut through the old crapcake here, shall we? They're all on it. We are talking about a combat sport which

1. Heavily relies on strength and mass

2. Has exhaustive training routines

3. Leads to countless injuries and

4. Has no downtime.

5. With no testing

6. Where ranking is EVERYTHING

If there EVER was a sport which led to steroid abuse, that is sumo. Come on people.

[Kuroyama 715]

Hooray, two roid-heads in the final!

I'm sure you have proof of this...? (Besides the usual "Oh, it's obvious to everyone")

There is simply no way to put on the kind of weight that Hakuho did without 'help'. Working out and eating a lot only goes so far.

Yes, rapid weight gain - virtually unheard of in the world of sumo. I bow to your superior evidence.

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

[Treblemaker 254]

If I would suspect anyone of being on steriods, and having the stereotypical body for it, it might be Takanoyama and Aran. I certainly would not suspect people with the classic "sumo" figure, like, well, everyone - including Hakuho and HF. IN my mind, the absolute classic sumo body belonged to Kotomitsuki.

I wouldn't even accuse Osh or Baruto of using steriods. Their bodies just don't seem to fit the bill.

Looking at rikishi, and haviing known people I played along side with who used steriods in college and university, I just don't see many rikishi going that route. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. I think I was once wrong sometime in the 70's. 1973. Yes, that was it.

[Bugman 384]

If I would suspect anyone of being on steriods, and having the stereotypical body for it, it might be Takanoyama and Aran. I certainly would not suspect people with the classic "sumo" figure, like, well, everyone - including Hakuho and HF. IN my mind, the absolute classic sumo body belonged to Kotomitsuki.

I wouldn't even accuse Osh or Baruto of using steriods. Their bodies just don't seem to fit the bill.

Looking at rikishi, and haviing known people I played along side with who used steriods in college and university, I just don't see many rikishi going that route. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. I think I was once wrong sometime in the 70's. 1973. Yes, that was it.

Erm, just out of curiousity, (curiousity killed the cat (Laughing...) ) does steroid-use cause any changes to bone structure, cranial/facial etc? i for one have no idea if rikishi use steroids or not, though as someone else here recently pointed out, there's no testing done for them, so i guess there's nothing stopping anyone from using them should they wish.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Bugman

[ronnie 221]

I could be wrong.

I knew a woman who was wrong some time ago. She thought she had made a mistake!

[Igordemorais 75]

The use of Human Growth Hormone does cause changes to bone structure, most famously it will make your head bigger and your gut bigger with consistent use.

The most important use of steroids in the case of sumo wrestlers is NOT, in my opinion, the gain of muscle mass but the recovery from injury. Steroids are very useful when recovering from injury, both to speed it up and to avoid losing mass during breaks.

Even if you discount that use, there is no reason whatsoever for them not to use steroids and for them not to seek that edge. In MMA, the PRIDE Fighting Championships ( a Japanese MMA promotion) was for long the biggest company in the sport and they did not do any testing whatsoever. Everybody and their uncle was roided out their ears.

There doesn't seem to be the moral outrage that you find in Americans towards steroids.

Once again: the absence of testing, the grueling workouts, the lack of downtime, the critical importance of strength and size, and the injury recovery.... sumo is a veritable petri dish for steroid use.

Also, it is not just steroids which can be of use. A hit of ephedrine before a fight could be very useful for explosiveness, for example.

And you all are intelligent enough to realize that in a single basho there must be more painkiller use than a burn victim wing at the local hospital. Some of those gentlemen walk in there with torn ligaments, broken hands and feet, dislocated shoulders and clavicles, twisted ankles, fractured ribs, and many many busted knees. 2 weeks in a row. After weeks of keiko. You better thank sumo stoicism because were it not for that we'd see more wincing on the dohyo than we'd see celebratory smiles.

Allow me to say this: if everyone can use it, then I have no objection whatsoever to them using steroids.

Here's a hint: everyone does it. 99% of world class pro athletes run steroid cycles, even if in non-competitive off-seasons to gain mass or to recover from injury, everyone is in on it. The ones who get caught are either caught on surprise tests or just did not cycle correctly, but everyone does it. No need for a soapbox.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Igordemorais

[Maguroyama 27]

Well on the issue of steroids, let's cut through the old crapcake here, shall we? They're all on it. We are talking about a combat sport which

1. Heavily relies on strength and mass

2. Has exhaustive training routines

3. Leads to countless injuries and

4. Has no downtime.

5. With no testing

6. Where ranking is EVERYTHING

If there EVER was a sport which led to steroid abuse, that is sumo. Come on people.

Well, I knew someone would fall for the old "Oh, it's obvious to everyone"-way of proving things. Like Bugman in previous post, I have no idea if ALL or any rikishi are on steroids, but your way of arguing, and Masumasumasumasu's way is convincing me as much someone saying "God exists, because nobody has proved that he/she doesn't exist". What exactly is the point you want to make? "Come on people", then what? Stop enjoying sumo because they're all on steroids? So, why are you guys even here?

[Igordemorais 75]

Did I not just say I don't mind steroid use? I think i did. Hang on.

Allow me to say this: if everyone can use it, then I have no objection whatsoever to them using steroids.

Yep. Also, I don't think this is a matter of faith or of being convinced. We have empirical evidence that there is steroid use: Takanoyama admitted to using insulin. Second, I don't believe the Japanese see it as cheating (i.e. PRIDE MMA). Third, steroid use might actually be necessary for them to manage the physical demands of top level sumo.

You seem to speak from a standpoint of ignorance on what steroids are, what they're for and how they are used.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Igordemorais

[Washuyama 641]

I knew a woman who was wrong some time ago. She thought she had made a mistake!

How do you know my ex-wife? :-P

[Morty 1,505]

So far everyone has said "they must be roiding because it's obvious" but nobody has put forward any evidence.

In the absence of drug testing (the only true proof of steroid use), there are a couple of other obvious physical signs (apart from increased strength and mass), that are dead giveaways that people are roiding. One of the most prominant is acne, which often springs up all over a person's back. While it doesn't happen to everyone it does happen to a majority of steroid users. Given that all these guys wear nothing more than a mawashi to the ring and I haven't seen even one back covered in acne, I would suggest the evidence, as it stands, is against steroid use. As every teenager knows it is almost impossible to get rid of pimples once you've got them.

And while steroid cycles are used to help heal injuries, if used incorrectly they can make injuries more likely, not less. Gaining too much extra muscle mass in a short period of time doesn't allow your body to compensate for the change, and makes it more likely, not less, that you will tear muscles, damage other body parts like ligaments and tendons, and in worse case scenarios, tear muscle clean off of bone. To use steroids correctly to heal you need really good medical advice. That would suggest that rikishi would be using steroids in an organised, medically supported way, in order to gain the benefit from their use. That kind of thing leaves an evidence trail which again, we haven't seen.

I suspect that much of that increased body mass comes from the massive amounts of beer these guys drink and the food they eat. Try having a six pack of beer a night for a month, combined with a chanko diet and see what kind of weight you put on. Because I have all these historical pictures of really fat rikishi from a hundred years ago, long before steroids were invented and I'm wondering how they managed to do it.

When someone can provide me with some EVIDENCE of steroid or other drug use, other than, "oh he's suddenly winning" then I'll believe it. Until then you're just making stuff up.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Morty

[Masumasumasu 902]

Well on the issue of steroids, let's cut through the old crapcake here, shall we? They're all on it. We are talking about a combat sport which

1. Heavily relies on strength and mass

2. Has exhaustive training routines

3. Leads to countless injuries and

4. Has no downtime.

5. With no testing

6. Where ranking is EVERYTHING

If there EVER was a sport which led to steroid abuse, that is sumo. Come on people.

Well spoken.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hooray, two roid-heads in the final!

I'm sure you have proof of this...? (Besides the usual "Oh, it's obvious to everyone")

There is simply no way to put on the kind of weight that Hakuho did without 'help'. Working out and eating a lot only goes so far.

Yes, rapid weight gain - virtually unheard of in the world of sumo. I bow to your superior evidence.

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

[Masumasumasu 902]

The use of Human Growth Hormone does cause changes to bone structure, most famously it will make your head bigger and your gut bigger with consistent use.

The most important use of steroids in the case of sumo wrestlers is NOT, in my opinion, the gain of muscle mass but the recovery from injury. Steroids are very useful when recovering from injury, both to speed it up and to avoid losing mass during breaks.

Even if you discount that use, there is no reason whatsoever for them not to use steroids and for them not to seek that edge. In MMA, the PRIDE Fighting Championships ( a Japanese MMA promotion) was for long the biggest company in the sport and they did not do any testing whatsoever. Everybody and their uncle was roided out their ears.

There doesn't seem to be the moral outrage that you find in Americans towards steroids.

Once again: the absence of testing, the grueling workouts, the lack of downtime, the critical importance of strength and size, and the injury recovery.... sumo is a veritable petri dish for steroid use.

Also, it is not just steroids which can be of use. A hit of ephedrine before a fight could be very useful for explosiveness, for example.

And you all are intelligent enough to realize that in a single basho there must be more painkiller use than a burn victim wing at the local hospital. Some of those gentlemen walk in there with torn ligaments, broken hands and feet, dislocated shoulders and clavicles, twisted ankles, fractured ribs, and many many busted knees. 2 weeks in a row. After weeks of keiko. You better thank sumo stoicism because were it not for that we'd see more wincing on the dohyo than we'd see celebratory smiles.

Allow me to say this: if everyone can use it, then I have no objection whatsoever to them using steroids.

Here's a hint: everyone does it. 99% of world class pro athletes run steroid cycles, even if in non-competitive off-seasons to gain mass or to recover from injury, everyone is in on it. The ones who get caught are either caught on surprise tests or just did not cycle correctly, but everyone does it. No need for a soapbox.

Checkmate, people. I don't even need to defend myself after this post.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Well on the issue of steroids, let's cut through the old crapcake here, shall we? They're all on it. We are talking about a combat sport which

1. Heavily relies on strength and mass

2. Has exhaustive training routines

3. Leads to countless injuries and

4. Has no downtime.

5. With no testing

6. Where ranking is EVERYTHING

If there EVER was a sport which led to steroid abuse, that is sumo. Come on people.

Well, I knew someone would fall for the old "Oh, it's obvious to everyone"-way of proving things. Like Bugman in previous post, I have no idea if ALL or any rikishi are on steroids, but your way of arguing, and Masumasumasumasu's way is convincing me as much someone saying "God exists, because nobody has proved that he/she doesn't exist". What exactly is the point you want to make? "Come on people", then what? Stop enjoying sumo because they're all on steroids? So, why are you guys even here?

I LOVE sumo even if they are all on roids. I would, however prefer that they were not.

[Masumasumasu 902]

So far everyone has said "they must be roiding because it's obvious" but nobody has put forward any evidence.

When someone can provide me with some EVIDENCE of steroid or other drug use, other than, "oh he's suddenly winning" then I'll believe it. Until then you're just making stuff up.

How on earth does a person naturally put on 34 kilos of muscle mass in one year without juice like Hakuho supposedly did between March of '03 and March of '04?

http://sumodb.sumogames.com/Rikishi.aspx?r=1123

[Kuroyama 715]

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

You know, I honestly can't tell if you missed the sarcasm.

So far everyone has said "they must be roiding because it's obvious" but nobody has put forward any evidence.

When someone can provide me with some EVIDENCE of steroid or other drug use, other than, "oh he's suddenly winning" then I'll believe it. Until then you're just making stuff up.

How on earth does a person naturally put on 34 kilos of muscle mass in one year without juice like Hakuho supposedly did between March of '03 and March of '04?

http://sumodb.sumoga...shi.aspx?r=1123

The same year he also grew 3.5 cm? Or were the 'roids responsible for that too?

Sheesh.

First, it wasn't all muscle mass. Have you ever seen a picture of Hakuho when he entered sumo? Second, he was 18-19 that year, and evidently had some of his growth somewhat later than most of us do in the West. I don't think it's at all out of line for someone undergoing a growth spurt while simultaneously getting a whole lot of hard exercise.

Allow me to say this: if everyone can use it, then I have no objection whatsoever to them using steroids.

Here's a hint: everyone does it. 99% of world class pro athletes run steroid cycles, even if in non-competitive off-seasons to gain mass or to recover from injury, everyone is in on it. The ones who get caught are either caught on surprise tests or just did not cycle correctly, but everyone does it. No need for a soapbox.

Regardless of the foregoing, this is probably correct, so I have absolutely no idea what the point was of Masumasumasu's original snippy little comment that started all this off.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Kuroyama

[Morty 1,505]

Once again I ask for clear and not circumstantial evidence. Looking at any photo of Hakuho make it pretty clear to me that all that weight isn't "muscle mass". If he had low body fat then you would have a case, but the man has a clinically obese BMI and as Kuroyama said, he also grew 3.5cm. At least half of that weight gain would have been fat.

Two other observations. First, it is possible to put on significant weight in a short period of time simply through the consumption of a high fat diet. A friend of mine went from 92kgs to 136kgs in a six month period while working at an ice cream factory, without any additional increase in height. The high percentage of obese people in western nations would suggest that men are capable of putting on weight after the age of 16.

Second, evidence from another sport would suggest rapid muscle mass increase is possible without recourse to illgal drugs. In Australian Rules Football, which has an extremely rigorous drug testing system, athletes the same age as Hakuho was when he had his major weight gain, and of the same height, regularly put on 10 to 15kg of muscle over the off-season simply through a concentrated weights and diet program. The way these occur are a matter of public record here in Australia. Because they are endurance athletes they have no added increase in fat but add the fat a sumo wrestler carries to the equation and you have your 35kg over 12 months. Hakuho's increase in weight over 12 months is attributable to hard work, a high fat diet and a growth spurt of 3.5cm.

To assume any increase in size or performance is drug related is cynical in the extreme. The arguments being forwarded here in support of steroid use are all circumstantial, slightly hysterical, without factual basis, and explainable by other means. No-one has yet provided any proveable evidence in support of steroid use.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

Once again I ask for clear and not circumstantial evidence. Looking at any photo of Hakuho make it pretty clear to me that all that weight isn't "muscle mass". If he had low body fat then you would have a case, but the man has a clinically obese BMI and as Kuroyama said, he also grew 3.5cm. At least half of that weight gain would have been fat.

Oooh, can't be sure about that. I remember a video (some scientific documentary) around here, where they actually made MRTs on either Kotomitsuki or Kotoshogiku and a lower ranked rikishi for comparison. I remember to be surprised about how much of the mass is actually muscle.

On second thought: The BMI might really be out of range, but the body fat percentage is prolly lower than most expect.

Edited July 23, 2012 by yorikiried by fate