Talkin' bout re-live on Eurosport

[Hoshifransu 0]

Well, at first I'm sorry if in the past I revealed too much about the current basho into different spots of this forum ! I daren't imagining there were fans who waited till the TV coverage to discover the results almost "live". That's a rare pleasure. How can they do to prevent themselves from visiting Kyokai's web site to follow the results ? A lot of patience ! In fact, myself, I ever loved sumo but before internet, I had to suffer from a big big lack but from now on, I ask myself : "How could I have lived without this ???"

So, I talk a lot, but I opened this thread to write a bit about the current coverage on Eurosport (sorry for the non-Europeans) and it's a good way for folks like me to really understand what happened during the basho because with my old machine (I don't write computer but machine) I can't catch the "live streaming" proposed by the Kyokai, and even if I could, well, six or seven in the morning isn't my favourite moment in life. (Since school) So, thank you Eurosport, even if yesterday's coverage at 23.13 was a real surprise, because Eurosport's teletext said OK then KO then OK, well, well, well ... I was waiting for an episode of Columbo on our first (boring) channel in France, then I had the good idea to turn the satellite on and at that moment, I had a "d

[Manekineko 200]

'dotai' or 'doutai', from 'dou'='the same' and 'tai'=body.

This 'ou' is really pronounced as long o, '

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Well, I'm sorry to talk again about something we already talked about months ago, but these zabutons which are thrown to the Yokozuna when he loses, well, it's a shame, sometimes !

I'm sorry, friends, Hoshifransu is not paranoid. Many Japanese fans really hate Musashimaru, we have the proof that time.

Last basho, when Takanohana lost to Kyokutenho, very few zabutons were thrown towards the Japanese Yokozuna meanwhile that time, you can play and re-play your video tape of Maru losing to Nami : Maru received zabutons not only on the dohyo but up to the way out ! That's a shame ... That nasty part of the crowd really deserve Maru wins many more basho again for the next years to come and to remain frustrated. That's all I wish to them (and to Maru too) !

I don't say that you're wrong about Musashimaru being hated by Japanese fans (maybe he is), but the throwing of zabuton is no indication thereof. In general, the bigger the surprise, the more zabuton is thrown. This means that in

[QttP 0]

Well, at first I'm sorry if in the past I revealed too much about the current basho into different spots of this forum ! I daren't imagining there were fans who waited till the TV coverage to discover the results almost "live". That's a rare pleasure. How can they do to prevent themselves from visiting Kyokai's web site to follow the results ? A lot of patience ! In fact, myself, I ever loved sumo but before internet, I had to suffer from a big big lack but from now on, I ask myself : "How could I have lived without this ???"

The thing is when you don't know the outcome you make various predictions, you hope for the victories of your favorites and you are tensed to see who will win. And it just feels stupid (for me at least) to do that, while watching a month-old bouts. That is why I, like many, keep myself up-to-date via the internet.

[Zentoryu 154]

Well, I'm sorry to talk again about something we already talked about months ago, but these zabutons which are thrown to the Yokozuna when he loses, well, it's a shame, sometimes !

I'm sorry, friends, Hoshifransu is not paranoid. Many Japanese fans really hate Musashimaru, we have the proof that time.

You *are* paranoid.  :-P

Yubiquitoyama speaks the truth about this. If anything, the increase in Zabutons thrown when he looses is a sign of RESPECT! It means that the fans take him seriously as a Yokozuna and no longer expect him to lose bouts. It has nothing to do with if they hate him or not.

I can remember a bout from a few years back when Takanohana was winning all the Yusho. I don't recall who he lost to, but I remember being astonished at the incredible shower of Zabuton that hit the dohyo. It was the most I had ever seen.

Do you think that had anything to do with racism? Or hatred? Of course not. The fans were showing their enthusiam over a great upset that they had just seen.

It's a Sumo tradition to throw Zabuton when a Yokozuna losses, especially a particularly dominate one. Takanohana, Akebono, etc, have all experienced it. Musashimaru is experiencing it now. Take it as a sign of respect, not a sign of hatred. (Thumbs up...)

[Hoshifransu 0]

Absolutely OK with all the previous messages on the discussed points .

OK for the zabutons received on the dohyo, as a follower of Maru, I'm paranoid on that point but not on another point which is the first time I saw a Yokozuna receiving zabutons away from the dohyo, when he is near of the way out to access to the preparation room. People are happy : they have to carry on throwing zabutons to the dohyo but not on Maru, away from the dohyo. I never saw this before. I think it's really exagerated. For me, it's not a mark of respect to launch zabutons up to his way out to the preparation room. If any yokozuna were treated like that, I would be completely paranoid, but there ain't no other Yokozuna treated like this ...

So ?

[Zentoryu 154]

I'm paranoid on that point but not on another point which is the first time I saw a Yokozuna receiving zabutons away from the dohyo, when he is near of the way out to access to the preparation room. People are happy : they have to carry on throwing zabutons to the dohyo but not on Maru, away from the dohyo. I never saw this before. I think it's really exagerated. For me, it's not a mark of respect to launch zabutons up to his way out to the preparation room. If any yokozuna were treated like that, I would be completely paranoid, but there ain't no other Yokozuna treated like this ...

Do you know that for a fact?

I really think you're making too much of one incident where perhaps the fans got a little overzealous in their Zabuton throwing. I've never seen Maru have zabuton thrown at him in the manner which you describe.

Anyway, I doubt Maru cares about a few zabuton headed his way. A 500 lb man vs. a seat cushion, no contest  (Aww...)

[Hoshifransu 0]

I've never seen Maru have zabuton thrown at him in the manner which you describe

Just watch Kyushu'02 Maru Vs Nami "after" bout ... (Exclamation)

It's a shame. I'm shocked ! Too hostile people ! No respect to him ...

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I haven't watched that but I really believe you are exaggerating, Hoshifransu. The control usually available to anyone throwing zabuton is pretty much zero and whenever a big amount of zabuton is thrown they pretty much end up all over the arena, including hitting yobidashi. Even if someone really DID try to hit Musashimaru, they would have to be right at the hanamichi to even have a chance to actually hit, so even if there are fans who show unusual disrespect (which I don't think there are), they would be limited to fans close to the hanamichi.

[Hoshifransu 0]

I exagerated, certainly. But Musashimaru has to be very strong in his mind to face an hostile crowd (perhaps the word "hostile" is exagerated too) well, who rarely support him, since his debut in makuuchi. I'm on Maru side.

[Manekineko 200]

Musashimaru debate aside, I was pleasantly surprised to hear Syd Hoare mention the oldest active rikishi (soon to be 42) somewhere down in jonidan, since he usualy completely disregards the existence of older/lighter rikishi even in juryo and proclaims the current oldest/lightest Makuuchi sekitori to be the oldest/lightest sumo wrestler, period. On one hand, this is sound, because to Eurosport-dependent sumo viewers even Juryo is on another continent, and jonidan is somewhere in Oort cloud...

But on the other hand it's nice to keep the facts straight.

For those uninformed, the aforementioned oldest pro-sumotori is Ichinoya, Kintamayama-zeki's avatar. Hmm, I wonder who reminded Hoare about Ichinoya... ;)

[Zentoryu 154]

Just watch Kyushu'02 Maru Vs Nami "after" bout ...

It's a shame. I'm shocked ! Too hostile people ! No respect to him ...

I'm afraid you've completely missed the point I was trying to make. (But, but...)

What I was trying to say to you is that this appears to have been a one-time incident in which the fans may have gotten overzealous with their Zabuton throwing. I said this *because* I haven't seen it happen it any of Maru's bouts *before* the one you mentioned above.

If you had seen the bout that Takanohana lost several years ago (which I mentioned in an earlier post) that resulted in the greatest zabuton shower I have ever seen to date, you would know why I think you are over-reacting. The flying cushions were litterally coming down all over the arena, including up the walkway to the preperation area.

The bigger the upset, the more excited the crowd gets, and the more erratic the zabuton throwing becomes.

I've seen Taka, Waka, and Akebono all get hit by zabuton.

You can interpret the zabuton throwing any way you wish. Though you seem to have made up your mind that it's a sign of disrespect. I would worry about the time they *stop* throwing zabuton when he losses. Because that will mean his career is over.

I exagerated, certainly. But Musashimaru has to be very strong in his mind to face an hostile crowd (perhaps the word "hostile" is exagerated too) well, who rarely support him, since his debut in makuuchi. I'm on Maru side.

Maru is one of my favorites, but I don't think he worries too much about what the crowd thinks of him. He certainly doesn't worry about a bunch of flying seat cushions that aren't very likely to even hit him.

I rememember watching Maru's Yusho interview from early this year. His humble demeanor and rather short answers to all questions seemed to endear him to the crowd. He briefly touched on his rivalry with Takanohana. When the announcer asked him if he had anything he wanted to say to (then absent) Takanohana, Maru's brief "No, nothing," answer brought laughter from the crowd.

There was also good applause when Maru mentioned his new career goal of 15 Yusho. The reason I mention this is that I don't think that they *hate* him, or disrespect him, as much as you suppose.

[Hoshifransu 0]

What I was trying to say to you is that this appears to have been a one-time incident in which the fans may have gotten overzealous with their Zabuton throwing. I said this *because* I haven't seen it happen it any of Maru's bouts *before* the one you mentioned above.

I agree at 100 percent. In fact, I find the public in Fukuoka very special. They have a tendency to launch the zabuton more easily than in Tokyo, for example. They launched zabutons for celebrating Asashoryu's win (Vs Miyabiyama, if I remember well) for example and many times, for various reasons, even if there ain't no Yokozuna left.

Well, they dare makin' more things in Fukuoka, than in Tokyo. That's my feeling.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Interesting days 10-11-12 of coverage, that night, on Eurosport.

Very amazing Kyokushuzan Vs Musoyama bout for day 11. Kyokushuzan was pushed backward by Musoyama (which is a classic attitude from the powerful Muso) and the Mongolian managed to trip Muso up, at the edge of the dohyo and Muso had a dangerous fall ...

Iwakiyama was very impressive the same day, Vs Dejima. He demonstrated a huge oshi power Vs one former specialist of this.

Finally for day 12, we had an exciting bout between Takanonami and Toki. As ever, the first one searching for applying his classic "kime hold", to lock the opponent's arm ... meanwhile the other, like a slot-machine, distributed the slaps to the face. That was a very funny show : Nami suggesting to Toki "If I catch you, you will see" and Toki suggesting "Waiting for that moment, take this to your face" and finally, both wrestlers turned around the dohyo during a certain time, Nami chasing after Toki ... but Toki managed to unbalance him and to win the bout ...

Eurosport had the good idea to put the spotlights on Konishiki who came to watch the tournament and what a surprise to notice Konishiki was still almost so big like he was in the past. He should really lose kilos for his health, I think. Though, his body constitution which enabled him to reach 285 kilos may enable him to live with, I would say, around of 200 kilos, nowadays. Take care, Konishiki-San !

So, European viewers, last Days 13-14-15 at 23.15 CET on Eurosport on saturday, don't miss it !

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Well, they dare makin' more things in Fukuoka, than in Tokyo. That's my feeling.

I for one can't force myself to remember whether it was the audience in Fukuoka or in Osaka that is considered the wildest of all honbasho crowds. Nagoya it wasn't and Tokyo it naturally can't be as they are relatively overexposed to honbashos there. :-P

I believe it was Fukuoka. Is Kyushu "the deep south" of Japan? Kind of Texas? Or Etel

[Manekineko 200]

I believe it was Fukuoka. Is Kyushu "the deep south" of Japan? Kind of Texas? Or Etel

[Manekineko 200]

Ah, Saturday afternoon, Premier League on TV, so I'm forced to amuze myself on Internet instead. ;)

Re: zabuton throwing. I always thought of it being much like Europeans of old throwing their hats in the air to show elation and approval. You're so happy to see a good bout, an unexpected upset, that you just have to express it, and throwing zabuton is certainly expressive enough. Granted, I've seen zabuton whack Musa on the head, but I don't think it was ill meant... Also, there was at least one occasion when musubi-no-ichiban wasn't exceptional, but still the zabuton flew. Why? Because the prevous bout, or one before that, featured a great upset, but people refrained from throwing the zabuton so they could sit on them 'til the end. :D

I think Hoshifransu-zeki thinks zabuton-throwing is ill-minded because he's such a great football fan, and in football throwing things on the pitch is a sign of audience's discontent. But even there it could be a sign of celebration, if a bit misguided (torches, beer-bottles, toilet paper... zabuton are really civilised compared to that!).

Enough of football-bashing for one day.

Re: hating Musa. I think he's far too cuddly to hate. He certainly isn't the golden-boy yokozuna like Taka (but noone is like Taka, much to Kyokai's chagrin), or the cultured and dignified figure like Ake. (Aww...) He speaks fairly little, looks very shy or indifferent or sleepy, and not like a serious yokozuna at all. That is, until he steps on the dohyo. Then he reminds us all over again why he's yokozuna, and a great one at that. Now that Ake has retired, he is the Nemesis number one to japanese wrestlers, but Shoryu is quickly joining him in that position. So it's normal that japanese sumo fans who like sumo only because japanese are the best at it are dissapointed, and dislike Maru. But I think it's exactly those fans that stopped being fans lately, and have turned to other sports now Taka isn't there to predictably win the yusho. Maybe I'm exagarating, comparing japanese mentality with croatian, since that's exactly what we do: when we have champions in some sport we're ever so proud, there's more than ample coverage of all events, and young people want to train in that sport, and government promisses support... but once that star fades, so does the popularity of the sport. So the fans that abandoned sumo weren't really sumo fans, they were Taka fans (I'm simplifying this dreadfully, I know). But the fans that stayed in these hard times are true sumo fans, those who can appreciate an exciting bout even when it's two makuuchi rikishi, and not yokozuna. And that sort of crowd certainly appreciates Musa because of his sumo, and not his foreigness. Which brings me to...

Re: discrimination of foreigners. Again, I think this simply isn't true. There was that bit of panic when Konishiki, Akebono and Musashimaru steamrolled through ranks, that sumo will get swamped by big Pacific islanders, and I remember hearing of some discrimination against them at the time. But I think that fear now is replaced by far more tangible fear of declining popularity of sumo, and new and exciting faces are the one thing Kyokai prays for. So what if those faces are Mongolian, or Russian? It might increase sumo popularity in Mongolia and Russia, bring money from selling TV rights... :D

[Hoshifransu 0]

(Quote from a previous poll)

Upon checking the names I noticed Hoshifransu is agreed with on the SML by Mr. Abe in his message. Seems like I need to read through this year's archive on banzuke.com when I find time.

Thanks, Mr Abe, absolutely right with you and I will explain more below !

Does every country have its wildest part of population in the south? In Croatia, small as it is, it's the citizens of Split that have 'crazy' reputation, their poster-boy being tennis player Goran Ivanisevic...

In France, there is a big gap between Parisians and the "wildness" of people around of Marseille ! Though the word wild is perhaps a bit exagerated, I would say "hot" !

In Italy, this is the same, people living nella "Padania" (North Italy) are very opposed to the very hot people living in South (Napoli, Reggio di Calabria, Sicilia)

In Spain, in Andalucia, people are especially "hot" too !

Well, strange, isn't it ? In England, I would say this is the reverse : the South and mainly London are really different from people living in North of England (Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield) who are very hot soccer fans ! (remember the famous Hooligans in the past)

Strange ...

So, about Eurosport's basho, as ever, Syd Hoare said a lot of interesting things, and among them, he said "Chiyonofuji actually said in an interview that Asashoryu's got the style very similar to his own."

Still about Asa, Syd added "Asashoryu has been told by the boss of the Sumo Association that at least he'll get at least 13 wins to be considered for a promotion to Yokozuna. He needs to get another good basho after this one but this one, he'll need at least 13 wins."

So, one more time, I ask myself if Syd meaned 13 wins with Yusho or 13 wins without Yusho ... Well, just wait and see ...

Syd talked about Rijicho too. He said "On day 9 during the usual press interview, Sumo Association boss Kitanoumi apologized profusely for the absence of Yokozunas Takanohana and Musashimaru and Ozekis Kaio and Chiyotaikai. In fact, he said they have attrayed (? I can't understand that word, in fact) the expectations of their Sumo fans by not participating. There were even some fans who demanded their money back. So, strong language indeed."

I liked the story Syd talked about Miyabiyama. In fact, Miya is the son of a rich businessman and so, his father was surprised when young Miya explained he wanted to go to the University to become a Sumo wrestler. Certainly Miya's father would have preferred his son will succeed him in business rather than becoming a rikishi. He would have told to his son something like : become a very good Sumo wrestler and I will help you a Business but if you're bad, I won't. (Very severe father with his son)

About the bout involving Asashoryu Vs Shimotori, I watched the replay a lot of times and Shimotori should really have won it, for two reasons : the first one, he really touched the ground the last, and sometimes the camera are set very badly, but here, the images were absolutely perfect and even with my own modest video player-recorder, I could watch images after images and it's very obvious and it's confirmed by the fact of the sudden natural reflex of the Mongolian when you're falling and when you're watching where you're falling, to make an ultimate move to recept yourself on the ground to avoid injury. At the reverse, Shimotori hadn't the same vision as Asashoryu and for me that's a second reason why Shimotori deserved the win : sumotori learned and worked a lot to slow down their fall, to win a bout and that's pretty what Shimotori did and at the reverse, Asashoryu had a normal reflex of self-protection with a very last quick move to touch the ground. It's very obvious, even with my poor video player-recorder, so I think the video judges must have a better material than mine and I have got at least three images of gap between Asashoryu touching the ground first and Shimotori touching the ground the second, so I imagine they could have more compositions with their own material. So, why a video assist in Sumo if they don't really take it into consideration ? Or perhaps they don't give time enough to the video referees to justify it. In rugby, players can wait during 5 long minutes sometimes the final decision of the video. So, to me, if a sport wants to use video, it must be done very well and take the time to do it well. Or give up with video. Other opinions ?

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Does every country have its wildest part of population in the south?

Only now I realized you've been visiting Finnish dictionary. While Etel

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

In fact, he said they have attrayed (? I can't understand that word, in fact) the expectations of their Sumo fans by not participating.

Betrayed?

[Hoshifransu 0]

Betrayed?

For sure. Thanks.

My english is too bad and Mister Hoare has so few time left to inform about interesting things he noticed or heard between each bout, that sometimes he may "swallow" a word !

So, for a guy like me, it's too hard to follow, even if I play and replay the video.

That's what I said to him the last time Eurosport made an interaction on their web site, with the spectators. I congratulated him for managing to tell so many interesting things meanwhile he has to present the wrestlers and to comment each bout, well, I really don't know how he can do this. He's fantastic. I wish one day Eurosport could broadcast the whole bouts with the long minutes before the tachi-ai, that's so fascinating too and Syd would have more time to speak more ... But Eurosport would broadcast a coverage of almost 10 hours and not only 4, especially with wrestlers like Takanonami and Kotonowaka who take all their time to start a fight !!!

Only now I realized you've been visiting Finnish dictionary. While Etel

[Hoshifransu 0]

From the thread with my "bad : Would you be in favour of the help of video ?" poll :

But we must remember that the replay officials may not be able to view the same replays that you at home are able to see on TV. Back in the early days of instant replay in the NFL, the replay officials only had access to a couple of views of the same plays. On the other hand, the audience at home could see the play from every possible angle, thanks to the national TV telecast.

Thanks for these important elements, Zentoryu-zeki.

After every end of coverage, Eurosport put a "copyright to Nihon Sumo Kyokai" and so, in my mind, they had the same images than me but your explanation is, to me, the only one which could let think the video judges couldn't assert anything 100 percent sure.

They really should have the maximum of images to judge and for that reason, they should make like in Rugby, to let the video judges all the time they need to give a decision. In rugby, it's very problematic nowadays because it's new since a couple of years only. Well, the supporters don't understand very often that it can last a so long time to decide. And it's delicate for the rugby players too who have to wait for some long minutes, almost immobiles. In Sumo that could give the opportunity to both wrestlers to recover their respective breath !

As Kotoseiya Yuichi said :

Actually ozumo might have been the very first professional sport to use video replays helping to decide the truthful outcome of a bout.

So, I really really don't understand them : they used video replay for a so long time and they don't really control it very well ... in a country which is the greatest exporter of camera, video recorders, TV like everybody know !

Really crazy situation, I think ...

[Kintamayama 45,116]

About the bout involving Asashoryu Vs Shimotori, I watched the replay a lot of times and Shimotori should really have won it, for two reasons : the first one, he really touched the ground the last, and sometimes the camera are set very badly, but here, the images were absolutely perfect and even with my own modest video player-recorder.. Other opinions ?

I think we're missing a very important aspect of the shimpan's decision-the aspect of " a dead body". This has nothing to do with who fell first. This has a lot to do with the question, if Asashouryuu touched first because he was trying to defend himself from injury, after having the bout in hand. This is very subjective, of course, but I refer you to Aki 2002, to the Asashouryuu-Takanonami match. All replays distinctly showed Nami stepping out hours before Shouryuu, and yet Nami got the win. I was really angry about this, because even on the blurry Kyookai feed, it was more than obvious. But my learned shiko-master Kaikitsune explained this to me, and  I have to grudgingly agree with him.

In every sport, video or not, there will always be place for controversy, because we, as human beings, consciously or sub-consciously color what we see with what we WANT to see.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be fans - we'd just be spectators.

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

Just my two cents, especially to Hoshifransu: It seems to me that your doubts and angers about the "wrong" video replay leads into the wrong direction. I personally have no doubt at all that the technical equipment is sufficient enough to come to the correct conclusion that Asashoryu's hand touched the earth first. So I'm really sure that it is NOT a technical problem as you suggest.

The shinpan certainly came to the decision for a tori-naoshi because they couldn't agree on whether Shimotori was "dead and out" first or Asashoryu touched earth first. And don't forget that there are five shinpan sitting with their eyes exactly at earth level. They are bound to see more and other things than the cameras are catching.

The last point in defense of the shinpan: This could have been a wrong decision, no doubt. No doubt too, that it was a close decision. And where human being are judges (nothing else is possible, think of this), there always will be judgment "errors" (what is a judgment error? another philosophical question). Instead of judgment errors I rather like to speak of bad judgment; "error" and "wrong" are such final words, they could backfire quickly. "Bad" is better showing my own subjective stance.

[Zentoryu 154]

He said "On day 9 during the usual press interview, Sumo Association boss Kitanoumi apologized profusely for the absence of Yokozunas Takanohana and Musashimaru and Ozekis Kaio and Chiyotaikai. In fact, he said they have betrayed the expectations of their Sumo fans by not participating. There were even some fans who demanded their money back. So, strong language indeed."

The more comments I see from Kitanoumi, the more I think this guy is absolutely clueless, not to mention the kyokai in general.  :-@

Saying that the rikishi are betraying the fans by not participating when they are *injured* is just ludicrous. If anything, such statements put pressure on said rikishi to continue to fight and risk further injury and further time away from the dohyo!

Instead of making stupid criticisms like like this, the kyokai should be looking at ways of trying to fix the injury problem, like reviewing the kosho rule or reviewing training methods. Find a way to get everyone healthy so they wouldn't have to make excuses to the fans.

What they're doing now isn't helping the rikishi or themselves any.   (Oh my god...)