Henka

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Henka can be beaten - yes, that is the point!

Usually, henka is used against guys who constantly charge forward like a bull with their head down. They tend to be really big guys who think that if they are the biggest and/or strongest, they *deserve* to win...Those who learn to do tachi-ai with a little more caution often go on to successful careers.

Inashi (pls correct the Japanese if I've mislabelled/misspelled it) is sometimes confused with henka. It is more of a shifting to the side, instead of outright jumping away at tachi-ai. Many rikishi use this successfully againt *bulldozers* as well. It does take a bit of skill to do a henka properly...you can't just jump away and expect Dejima to run out on his own (ok, may Daydreamer, but he's about it). You need to combine the henka with a good hikiotoshi or hatakikomi or rear push-out...something!

Guys like Chiyotaikai, Miyabiyama, Hokutoriki, Tosanoumi, and Kitazakura are prime targets for henka. They come in every time with everything they've got, often with their head down, hoping speed, weight, and momentum will win it for them in place of practice and technique. One reason for Hokutoriki's improved performance this basho was his improved tachi-ai. He had his head up a lot more...His nerves showed in the bout with Hokutoriki, and he forgot...

Asanowaka is the current henka champ...he's good for at least 3 or 4 a basho. It doesn't matter. He doesn't win enough, even using it...guys learn to be cautious against rikishi who overdo it.

[Kintamayama 45,527]

One reason for Hokutoriki's improved performance this basho was his improved tachi-ai. He had his head up a lot more...His nerves showed in the bout with Hokutoriki, and he forgot...

So much so, he even managed to beat himself and lose to himself!! :-P

Seriously, I believe you summed it up perfectly.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

So much so, he even managed to beat himself and lose to himself!! :-D

Seriously, I believe you summed it up perfectly.

As the great Bruce Lee said "...there is no opponent..."

:-P

Hokutoriki's record will show he lost to Hakuho on day 15 of the 2004 Natsu basho, but he really did lose to himself.

[Zuikakuyama 1]

Hokutoriki's record will show he lost to Hakuho on day 15 of the 2004 Natsu basho, but he really did lose to himself.

Geez, this is generalizing things way too much.

Lots of losses are caused by an initial mistake, which the opponent then exploits. Give the other guy some credit too. So did Asashoryu lost to himself by trying a neck-pulldown against Hokutoriki or fighting upright and trying a throw against 'tenho. Where do you draw the line?

On a related point, the root of henka, I think, comes from lack of self-confidence in one's own sumo.

Given the choice, would a rikishi choose to do his style of sumo or a henka if doing either has an equal chance of winning? I think the vast majority would choose to do regular sumo.

But when you don't have confidence in your own sumo, you would tend to want to try henka.

Guys like 'shoryu do not need to pull henkas because they know they can take the best that any rikishi can offer head on and beat them. That is why the ozekis and yokozunas get so much grief for doing henka . . because it shows a lack of confidence in their sumo, and at the set of skills that got them to Ozekihood or Yokozunahood.

For lower ranked rikishis who do not have the full set of good skills, henka is their only real chance at winning against those who are better than them.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Hokutoriki's record will show he lost to Hakuho on day 15 of the 2004 Natsu basho, but he really did lose to himself.

Geez, this is generalizing things way too much.

On a related point, the root of henka, I think, comes from lack of self-confidence in one's own sumo.

But when you don't have confidence in your own sumo, you would tend to want to try henka.

Guys like 'shoryu do not need to pull henkas because they know they can take the best that any rikishi can offer head on and beat them. That is why the ozekis and yokozunas get so much grief for doing henka . . because it shows a lack of confidence in their sumo, and at the set of skills that got them to Ozekihood or Yokozunahood.

For lower ranked rikishis who do not have the full set of good skills, henka is their only real chance at winning against those who are better than them.

So much for some good-natured joking around with Kinta-zeki... :-P

Yes, yes, Hakuho deserves credit for winning. And he's new and ranked low, so the henka should be no big deal. He has a lot to learn...

Also true that henka *generally* reflects a lack of confidence in one's sumo. It can also be a legit technique against the perennial bulldozer.

[MongolPower 0]

Doing Henka is not illegal. Therefore, any rikishi should do it as often as he feels like. I bet whomever falls for Henka must feel so stupid after the match. I would be beating myself. Doing henka is part of doing sumo. Doing henka properly doesn't translate into lack of "confidence". Smart slick rikishi do henka stupid bulldozers fall for it.

[QttP 0]

IF he lose purposly, then what is the point of competition in sport, and what is the purpose of ranks if someone lose purposly to do a favor. there were number of members who hated hakhuo because he won. i think they should hate haku for falling miserably to a low megashira. hakuho showed great skills by doing the right move. i know hoku is stronger than hakuho, but he doesnt have the skill to read his oponent. he just dived in..... :-P

There is quite a distance to go between losing on purpose and doing a cheap desperate move to secure an instant "win".

[Guest TSoLmoN]

c'com henka is not a cheap move. as mongolpower said it is done by the fastest rishikis. there is a lot of risk in doing henka. i bet hoku doesnt have the speed and skills to do a henka.

[QttP 0]

c'com henka is not a cheap move. as mongolpower said it is done by the fastest rishikis. there is a lot of risk in doing henka. i bet hoku doesnt have the speed and skills to do a henka.

I bet you really don't know anything (and I mean, anything) about sumo (that's for the last comment). And as for cheap or not cheap, everyone defines to himself what he thinks is entertaining/honorable and what he thinks is annoying/dishonorable/cheap. These are my definitions. I think you'll find more people who agree with them than people who don't. But I don't really care what others think here.

Many people say "Hakuho is a low maegashira, so he can be excused, even though if it was an ozeki/yokozuna henkaing, it'd be really bad."

Personally, if Asashoryu performed an henka against a 7-7 kadoban Musoyama to win yusho, I wouldn't be pleased, but I wouldn't find it as foul as I find what Hakuho did. You may disagree with me strongly, but if you don't understand my logic, I can't be bothered to explain it further.

Edited May 24, 2004 by QttP

[Guest TSoLmoN]

c'com henka is not a cheap move. as mongolpower said it is done by the fastest rishikis. there is a lot of risk in doing henka. i bet hoku doesnt have the speed and skills to do a henka.

I bet you really don't know anything (and I mean, anything) about sumo (that's for the last comment). And as for cheap or not cheap, everyone defines to himself what he thinks is entertaining/honorable and what he things is annoying/dishonorable/cheap. These are my definitions. I think you'll find more people who agree with them than people who don't. But I don't really care what others think here.

yes it is true that i have no knowledge of sumo. yes i am a newbie. i respect your opinion, but your opinions sounds like you are not accepting hoku's loss. i wonder what your opinions would be if hoku wins hakuho by doing a henka, then can you call henka a cheap move.

[QttP 0]

i wonder what your opinions would be if hoku wins hakuho by doing a henka, then can you call henka a cheap move.

My last paragraph in my previous post explains that pretty well, I think.

[QttP 0]

These are my definitions. I think you'll find more people who agree with them than people who don't. But I don't really care what others think here.

I just realized that my comment "I don't really care what others think here" could be GROSSLY misinterpreted to make it seem like I don't care about the opinions of the SumoForum members in general. Before it does, I'd like to stress that it COMPLETELY was not my point. All I meant is that at this point, I don't need to rely on opinions of others (on the subject of henka and honor) to justify my own. "Here" meant the subject under discussion, not the forum.

Edited May 24, 2004 by QttP

[Jesinofuji 11]

But we don't know yet why exactly Hakuho did pull the henka. I am really hoping to see some 'Rikishi Talk' for snshuraku, or some kind of interview. I want to know exactly what made him make the decision, and whether he was thinking mostly of Asashoryu or of his own record.

I want to know more about what Hakuho's relationship with Asashoryu is. I know Asasekiryu and Tokitenku were introduced to Ozumo by Asashoryu, but I know little about him and Hakuho.

And I could understand Hakuho's decision either way. 12 wins for shinnyumaku is very impressive. Its not to be taken lightly as it ties a record. He surely knew that Asa's yusho chance was riding on his shoulders, and that a win -henka or not- would make him a hero in Mongolia.

Hakuho did not take away any possibility of a Hokutoriki yusho by pulling a henka. Hoku could have either not fallen for the henka, or he could have beaten Asashoryu in the kettei sen. Hoku did a great job this basho, but he just didn't do as much to win the yusho as the yokozuna did. He has no one to blame but himself, and can do nothing but prepare for next basho in sanyaku. Or he can gloat about his two special prizes.

i bet hoku doesnt have the speed and skills to do a henka.

And I do think Hokutoriki has the speed and skills to do a henka. If the Moose can pull one off, I'm sure Hoku can with ease.

Edited May 25, 2004 by Jesinofuji

[Jesinofuji 11]

And one further note, Hoku should have known that Hakuho sometimes uses henka. He used it against Futeno on day 6. He *should* have watched all Hakuho's bouts after his match day 14.

[Mikiro 0]

Thanks again to Forum members for another enlightening discussion. I wonder about the point made by several members that the "henka" was employed by Hakuho to ensure a victory to aid his Mongolian countryman. I would really hate to think this is true and instead that Hakuho did not think of Mongolian versus Japanese as this would seem to hint of racism at worst and nationalism at best. While I am no expert, I do not think either of these two "isms" are supposed to be a part of Sumo. If true that it is accepted that countrymen of different heyas should be considered teammates with a goal of winning to aid their fellows, the opposite would be logical too with countrymen dumping a match with a countryman to aid him. I would be loath to think that this is true as this surely cannot be good for Sumo. Heya mates cannot compete against each other for obvious reasons and if nationalism in Sumo is accepted, should fellow countrymen be matched against each other.

Regarding whether or not Hakuho actually employed "henka" against Hokutoriki is problematic. Henka is obviously a general term with several kimarite being used to describe its occurence. Many terms are difficult to define such as "pornography." In 1964, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart in casting his vote concerning a pornography case said that he was reluctant to provide a complete definiton, but that, "I know it when I see it." I feel the same way about a henka, I know it when I see it.

[Jesinofuji 11]

Lets also remember that if it was not for the Sumo of another Mongolian, 10-ho, Hoku would not have had his one-win lead going into senshuraku. That was his second kinboshi he got from his countryman. Asa also had a scuffle last year with Shoes-on. I think its safe to say that up until now there has been no Japanese vs. Mongolian attitude in Sumo.

One thing is for certain, Hakuho wanted to win. He may have just looked at this match the same way as he looked at the rest of his matchs.

[Guest TSoLmoN]

well said jesinofuji :-D :-P :-P

[hoshidango 0]

Disclamer: The above does not apply to the stuff that Asasnowaka does regularly. That is a real hit-and-shift.

And Kyokushuzan?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Lets also remember that if it was not for the Sumo of another Mongolian, 10-ho, Hoku would not have had his one-win lead going into senshuraku. That was his second kinboshi he got from his countryman.

As 10-ho is a sanyaku rikishi (but not for long!), he doesn't get a kinboshi. Just a win (shiroboshi, though an impressive one at that!).

As for the rest of your post, good analysis. :-D There really has been no favoritism for or among the Mongolians. They have to work hard just like everyone else.

[Kintamayama 45,527]

Thanks again to Forum members for another enlightening discussion. I wonder about the point made by several members that the "henka" was employed by Hakuho to ensure a victory to aid his Mongolian countryman. I would really hate to think this is true and instead that Hakuho did not think of Mongolian versus Japanese as this would seem to hint of racism at worst and nationalism at best.

Well, heya mates will do their utmost to help one another. It has happened countless times in the past. What's the difference?

I do have a problem with logic here.. How can you help your mate (heya, countryman etc.. ) by winning? You can't "plan" to win. You can try your best to win. OTOH, you CAN plan to lose to help others, which is an entirely different story.

This talk of Hakuhou aiding Asashouryuu by winning doesn't make sense, since if anyone can plan a win in advance, we'd have no sports at all.

[QttP 0]

But we don't know yet why exactly Hakuho did pull the henka.

Edited May 25, 2004 by QttP

[Kintamayama 45,527]

I want to know more about what Hakuho's relationship with Asashoryu is.

Well, he promised at yesterday's press conference to take him out to dinner at the first chance he has. "Oyakata says I owe him one, and I will be dining with him very soon".

[Naganoyama 5,948]

I want to know more about what Hakuho's relationship with Asashoryu is. I know Asasekiryu and Tokitenku were introduced to Ozumo by Asashoryu, but I know little about him and Hakuho.

I seem to remember from previous posts on this forum that Asashoryu has given some help to Hakuho in keiko although he is from a different heya. Asashoryu also gave Hakuho a birthday cake in March for his 19th birthday.

The relationship seems to me from this to be a bit like that between older brother and younger brother. It would not be surprising to me that Hakuho should make extra effort for this bout (whatever form that might take) not only for his own sake in producing an impressive record on his makuuchi debut, but also for the sake of his 'older brother'.

But then I would think that it is only human (and not necessary deliberate) that a rikishi is more motivated in some bouts than others. (One feature of Asashoryu's sumo which is unusual is that he is very motivated in every bout.) Some of the rikishi seem to come out half asleep for some of their bouts - you wouldn't expect that to be the case in a yusho-deciding bout.

It also seems likely from Hokutoriki's demeanour immediately prior to the bout that he was in too nervous a state to pay all that much attention to what his opponent was about to do. A great pity for him, but I don't think that his opponent should be blamed for that.

[Jesinofuji 11]

As 10-ho is a sanyaku rikishi (but not for long!), he doesn't get a kinboshi.  Just a win (shiroboshi, though an impressive one at that!).

(Oops! ) I wasn't thinking about 10-ho's rank at the time.

Rikishi Talk (Senshuraku):

HAKUHO (Not losing to Hokutoriki):

At first I wanted to do the honorable thing and run off the dohyo like the scared girl that I am. But then, during the second crouch down I heard the voice of my deceased grand-grand-grand-mother, who said (in English from some reason): "Hakuho-san: you must execute an henka so that this guy will fall on his face, and you must do it so that later they will argue on the SumoForum about whether it really was an henka or not!" As I went to my corner I kept thinking about my grand-grand-grand-mother's words, but I still wasn't sure what to do, and then I got a telepathic communication from Asashoryu-zeki, who was in the bathroom at the time. The connection was blurred so all I got was "Hakuho, if you dare lose to this bubble - where the heck is the toilet paper - I will beat you with a stick, so prepare to die OMFGLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111" And you know the rest.

:-)

That's true, but maybe Riki simply didn't believe his opponent would sink so low.

Then he choose poorly. Given the importance of the situation, making such an assumption is a big big mistake. I hope he doesn't fall for it again. But I think Hakuho would have won even if he didn't henka. Hoku did not look focused before the match, he looked nervous, and even mattaed twice.

[Yangnomazuma 79]

I would really hate to think this is true and instead that Hakuho did not think of Mongolian versus Japanese as this would seem to hint of racism at worst and nationalism at best. While I am no expert, I do not think either of these two "isms" are supposed to be a part of Sumo. If true that it is accepted that countrymen of different heyas should be considered teammates with a goal of winning to aid their fellows, the opposite would be logical too with countrymen dumping a match with a countryman to aid him.

Never really thought this out to the point of the quoted post, but it is a valid concern. Meaning no ill respect to any of the current rikishi, but it must be kept in mind. I don't recall any match between Ake-Konishiki/Ake-Moose that would reek of Yaocho, and I am NOT saying that the current topic does, but I DO agree that it should be guarded against at all costs.