Natsu Basho 2013 discussion thread

[Maguroyama 27]

Hakuho is a reprobate through and through.

And you are Mother Theresa I suppose. Always a kind word for everyone.

Interesting that your signature reads "Those who cannot debate, defame", as defaming is all you do here.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Hakuho proooooobably knows that Kise barely moves forward at the tachi-ai. He didn't just jump to the side and was waiting for Kise to fall down. He tried to get a better position and he succeeded in that.

Kise showed some power in this bout but he remains far from yokozuna material. If he ever gets a yusho then we are talking (on a theoretical level) ... till then .... it is just a dream..

First paragraph: are you saying that a henka wouldn’t beat Kisenosato because he doesn’t move forward? Hakuhō beat Kisenosato by henka just a few basho ago, after everyone got fed up with Kise’s tachi-ai antics.

And how can you say that Kisenosato is far from yokozuna material? Hakuhō is certainly on another level, but if Harumafuji can be a yokozuna, then the Kisenosato of this basho can certainly be, too; not just for his strong W–L record, but also because he dominated all his bouts up to fighting Hakuhō.

Bouts I’ll be looking forward to tomorrow: Kotoōshū vs. Kakuryū: deciding for Ōsh’s demotion; Kisenosato vs. Kotoshōgiku: Kise needs to win for a chance at yūshō; Hakuhō vs. Harumafuji: if their previous bouts are anything to go by, it’s gonna be a great match, and deciding for the yūshō.

Oh, and at this point I expect Myōgiryū to have won the Outstanding Performance sanshō.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho is a reprobate through and through.

And you are Mother Theresa I suppose. Always a kind word for everyone.

Interesting that your signature reads "Those who cannot debate, defame", as defaming is all you do here.

Who am I debating with?

[ArchangelEST 13]

Hakuho proooooobably knows that Kise barely moves forward at the tachi-ai. He didn't just jump to the side and was waiting for Kise to fall down. He tried to get a better position and he succeeded in that.

Kise showed some power in this bout but he remains far from yokozuna material. If he ever gets a yusho then we are talking (on a theoretical level) ... till then .... it is just a dream..

Well, pretty sure there is no requirement to actually get a yusho to be promoted. Is there? Two Jun-Yusho should be enough with high enough scores. Even less so when there are two Yokozuna already. It would be a fairly tall task for anyone to take a Yusho away from two Yokozunas. Not saying it can't be done, but obviously it's more difficult compared to there being a single Yokozuna who might just be having a bad basho.

Also I don't see losing to Hakuho as a sign of him not being ready. Obviously winning would show he is up to snuff for sure. But at the same time Hakuho is one of the greatest of all time and it's no real shame to lose against him. He did beat Harumafuji and that should be enough to keep his promotion chances quite real if he can follow up the next basho.

Besides. We all dream all the time. No matter how good the score, it's all speculation until the next basho comes along. So many have shined once.

Edited May 25, 2013 by ArchangelEST

[Asashosakari 19,648]

Two Jun-Yusho should be enough with high enough scores.

Never going to happen again thanks to Futahaguro, that's pretty safe to say.

[aderechelsea 125]

Two Jun-Yusho should be enough with high enough scores.

Never going to happen again thanks to Futahaguro, that's pretty safe to say.

thank you ...

And how can you say that Kisenosato is far from yokozuna material? Hakuhō is certainly on another level, but if Harumafuji can be a yokozuna, then the Kisenosato of this basho can certainly be, too; not just for his strong W–L record, but also because he dominated all his bouts up to fighting Hakuhō.

Hakuho has 5 yusho (4 as Ozeki ... 2 zensho) ... he is a Yokozuna.

Kise had one basho that the title was up for the taking just once.... and he is not getting it as it seems. Big difference.

And if you watch his bouts for this basho one after the other you will see he was not as dominant as you think.

Edited May 25, 2013 by aderechelsea

[ArchangelEST 13]

Two Jun-Yusho should be enough with high enough scores.

Never going to happen again thanks to Futahaguro, that's pretty safe to say.

Even with Kisenosatos "special circumstance"? :-D

Well I guess we have to see. Rather early speculation anyway as it's not uncommon for any Ozeki to get a good score but being unable to follow up properly. Most Ozeki manage a jun-Yusho or even Yusho at one point without repeating the performance the next basho. But still... fun to throw the idea of 3 Yokozuna around.

[Fay 1,677]

It was amazing how relaxed Hakuho was this morning at keiko. I didn't expect him to show up at all, but he even did a lot of training with Daikiho and lend him his chest.

Chiyoshomas father was there too (a former mongolian ozeki) with his daughter and her baby. He talked with them for a long time, then he gave interviews and he even took time for a pic with me ... or i took the time to wait for so long ... I missed half of the day ;-)

[Morty 1,505]

A rikishi who has never won a yusho doesn't deserve to be a Yokozuna, and I expect Kise would agree with that assessment. He may yet win this, then the Yok talk can happen but they won't promote him until he wins one.

[Asashosakari 19,648]

Never going to happen again thanks to Futahaguro, that's pretty safe to say.

Even with Kisenosatos "special circumstance"? :-D

Absolutely. Promoting him to ozeki one win short is one thing, saddling him with the tag "the Japanese stopgap yokozuna who didn't deserve to get there" is quite something else. He might not have to win back-to-back yusho, but I really doubt anything less than yusho + high-quality jun-yusho is going to do it, at least for the next few years where they can still believe (correctly or not...) that he's in his prime and will have more opportunities.

[ArchangelEST 13]

Never going to happen again thanks to Futahaguro, that's pretty safe to say.

Even with Kisenosatos "special circumstance"? :-D

Absolutely. Promoting him to ozeki one win short is one thing, saddling him with the tag "the Japanese stopgap yokozuna who didn't deserve to get there" is quite something else. He might not have to win back-to-back yusho, but I really doubt anything less than yusho + high-quality jun-yusho is going to do it, at least for the next few years where they can still believe (correctly or not...) that he's in his prime and will have more opportunities.

For some reason I can't get into the sumo database right now, but how many Yokozuna have there been active at the same time in the past? If let's say Kisenosato does become Yokozuna and there are then three of them, would they really expect another Yokozuna candidate for example to take away the Yusho from three Yokozuna? Is something like that a potential factor? Has something like that happened before? Where three active Yokozuna have failed to get Yusho and a lower ranked rikishi took it down?

Sorry for the questions, but it looks like you can answer stuff like this pretty much off the top of your head. :-)

[krindel 675]

Two Jun-Yusho should be enough with high enough scores.

Never going to happen again thanks to Futahaguro, that's pretty safe to say.

Even with Kisenosatos "special circumstance"? :-D

Oh, yes... Especially because of his special circumstance. They really want a Japanese Yokozuna, but when he is promoted he WILL have a Yusho, preferably two back to back, but one will probably do. Thing is, the foreign Yokozuna of the last 20 years plus Takanohana have all been too good and raised the bar quite some (as can be seen in 5-yusho Harumafuji being accused of not being good enough and in 5-yusho Wakanohana being considered pretty much a failed Yokozuna for not winning any in the rank).

If the next Japanese Yokozuna is raised and fails to impress, the PR backlash will be even worse than not having one at all, I suspect. So yes, they want one, yes, they'll probably bend the two yusho requirement guideline to one + a good Jun-Yusho but I really don't see them going the Futahaguro way ever again, and most especially now.

Having said that, if Kisenosato can repeat this performance for a few basho straight, then the natural course of things will take care of everything and he will get both Yusho(s) and tsuna. Noone but himself has been holding him back, and its actually good to see him perform close to his potential for once. Now, if only he can get some consistensy and do it again...

Edit: And of course Asashosakari beat me to it ;-)

Edited May 25, 2013 by krindel

[ArchangelEST 13]

That does make plenty of sense. Indeed if he continues performing as well it is only a matter of time until he gets the needed Yusho and the promotion. But you know... internet forums are all about crazy speculation. I do appreciate the discussion. :-)

Edited May 25, 2013 by ArchangelEST

[Maguroyama 27]

Hakuho is a reprobate through and through.

And you are Mother Theresa I suppose. Always a kind word for everyone.

Interesting that your signature reads "Those who cannot debate, defame", as defaming is all you do here.

Who am I debating with?

Darn, I forgot the "Don't feed the troll"-rule.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho is a reprobate through and through.

And you are Mother Theresa I suppose. Always a kind word for everyone.

Interesting that your signature reads "Those who cannot debate, defame", as defaming is all you do here.

Who am I debating with?

Darn, I forgot the "Don't feed the troll"-rule.

Those who cannot debate, defame.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho is a reprobate through and through.

And you are Mother Theresa I suppose. Always a kind word for everyone.

Interesting that your signature reads "Those who cannot debate, defame", as defaming is all you do here.

1) I'm not 'Mother Theresa' and neither was she.

2) 'Always' a kind word for 'everyone'? Children speak in such terms.

3) Defamation is 'all' that I do? Again, your argument is silly and childish. I'm not debating with Hakuho, I am criticizing him. Yes, I became emotional because the Yokozuna pulled a Henka on a Japanese rikishi who was going for his first ever yusho, especially since it has been seven years since a Japanese rikishi has won a yusho. 'Reprobate' is an appropriate term for such a person.

[Mukonoso 273]

Not sure how I feel about having three Yokozuna. It sort of dilutes the status in my opinion. Then I'd want them to create a new higher rank of Dai-Yokozuna or something.\

It's kind of like how I felt when I was younger and half the characters in Dragonball started to be Super Saiyans. Vegita said something along the lines of "What? Is there a Super Saiyan bargain sale going on?" when he saw that his own son and Goku's second son also had the power at extremely young ages.

But I digress.

[Yubinhaad 11,761]

Not sure how I feel about having three Yokozuna. It sort of dilutes the status in my opinion.

In what way? The top of the banzuke isn't a "winner stays on" type of thing, with each Yokozuna being usurped by the next. We currently have two men who earned the right to hold the rank at the same time. Hakuho didn't become any less of a Yokozuna when Harumafuji joined him, and if they're both still there when #71 arrives the same will be true.

Kisenosato threw everything he could at Hakuho but it wasn't quite enough today; however I feel Kisenosato has turned a corner in this basho. It remains to be seen whether he'll kick on and challenge again next basho, or if he'll slip back to 10-11 wins at Ozeki for a while. Interesting times indeed! :-)

[shumitto 418]

1) I'm not 'Mother Theresa' and neither was she.

Best comment of the basho. :-D

I just would like to point out that Kisenosato losing the Yusho is not a done thing... yet. Harumafuji might pull one of his tricks on Hakuho to finish 12-3 and Kisenosato maybe can come on the winning end of this.

[Mukonoso 273]

In what way? The top of the banzuke isn't a "winner stays on" type of thing, with each Yokozuna being usurped by the next. We currently have two men who earned the right to hold the rank at the same time. Hakuho didn't become any less of a Yokozuna when Harumafuji joined him, and if they're both still there when #71 arrives the same will be true.

I know and I respect that. It's just a personal thing. It's hard for me to explain properly I guess. I know the banzuke is different from "whoever actually wins the basho" and sumo is different from other sports. Probably has to do with the way other sports are where the winner of a tournament such as the World Series or the Super Bowl are are also considered the best of the sport for that year. But in sumo you have the top of the banzuke and then someone else may win the basho, but the top of the banzuke remains. It's just a different system (and world) and I respect that.

So with too many Yokozuna, to me alone anyway, it would feel like it might not be such an accomplishment. We already have some people who felt that Harumafuji is a weak Yokozuna and maybe shouldn't have gotten the promotion. Then other feel that there might be some relaxation of the rules to get Kisenosato into Yokozuna(dom) just so there would be a Japanese at the top again. I'm one of the people that feels it should be really, really hard to get to the rank. Like three basho wins in a row with at least two of them being perfect with no losses. That's just me though and like I said, I respect everyone else's views too.

[Kintamayama 45,504]

So with too many Yokozuna, to me alone anyway, it would feel like it might not be such an accomplishment. We already have some people who felt that Harumafuji is a weak Yokozuna and maybe shouldn't have gotten the promotion. Then other feel that there might be some relaxation of the rules to get Kisenosato into Yokozuna(dom) just so there would be a Japanese at the top again. I'm one of the people that feels it should be really, really hard to get to the rank. Like three basho wins in a row with at least two of them being perfect with no losses. That's just me though and like I said, I respect everyone else's views too.

A few years back we had 4 Yokozunae at the same time and it was exciting to the hilt. Akebono, Musashimaru, Takanohana And Wakanohana (who didn't do that great at the rank but still mattered). Granted, most of the time one of them was injured or out, but when it was good, it was great. And you couldn't get a ticket to any day standing sideways.

Also, with three active Yokozuna, the lowest ranked rikishi (Takatouriki in Haru 2000) won the yusho, so..

Edited May 25, 2013 by Kintamayama

[ArchangelEST 13]

In what way? The top of the banzuke isn't a "winner stays on" type of thing, with each Yokozuna being usurped by the next. We currently have two men who earned the right to hold the rank at the same time. Hakuho didn't become any less of a Yokozuna when Harumafuji joined him, and if they're both still there when #71 arrives the same will be true.

I know and I respect that. It's just a personal thing. It's hard for me to explain properly I guess. I know the banzuke is different from "whoever actually wins the basho" and sumo is different from other sports. Probably has to do with the way other sports are where the winner of a tournament such as the World Series or the Super Bowl are are also considered the best of the sport for that year. But in sumo you have the top of the banzuke and then someone else may win the basho, but the top of the banzuke remains. It's just a different system (and world) and I respect that.

So with too many Yokozuna, to me alone anyway, it would feel like it might not be such an accomplishment. We already have some people who felt that Harumafuji is a weak Yokozuna and maybe shouldn't have gotten the promotion. Then other feel that there might be some relaxation of the rules to get Kisenosato into Yokozuna(dom) just so there would be a Japanese at the top again. I'm one of the people that feels it should be really, really hard to get to the rank. Like three basho wins in a row with at least two of them being perfect with no losses. That's just me though and like I said, I respect everyone else's views too.

Actually I feel that if there are more Yokozuna it means that each Yokozuna is likely to be that much more powerful than you average Sekitori and it is that much more of an accomplishment to become one. Think about it. Hakuho has shown amazing numbers by winning so many bouts in a row, so many bashos etc. But you have to consider the fact that he was the solo Yokozuna for a while. Almost three years he ruled alone. A portion of his wins don't seem that amazing to me simply because he lacked a serious rival to challenge him at that time. Sure some of the Ozeki put up a fight every now and again, but most of the time he was completely out of everyone's league.

Now obviously he really was/is *That* good. But at the same time I can't help but to feel that a Yusho is worth less when you are basically the only true contender for it.

So right now, every Yusho Hakuho takes is worth much more in my eyes because of Harumafuji offering solid resistance. If Kisenosato gets promoted as-well, - each Yusho will further go up in value. Winning a Yusho seems way more of an accomplishment when you have to contend with multiple similarly skilled opponents.

Edited May 25, 2013 by ArchangelEST

[shumitto 418]

I have just realized I have grown so used to the Ozeki exchanging favours that if Kakuryu for some unexplainable reason wins tomorrow - not that I remotely think that will happen - it will feel like the wrong thing.

At any rate, I can't picture Kotooshu celebrating another Christmas as an Ozeki. His recent form is so dismal.

[Washuyama 641]

1) I'm not 'Mother Theresa' and neither was she.

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure Mother Teresa WAS Mother Teresa. ;-) (Poking the other guy...)

[ArchangelEST 13]

I have just realized I have grown so used to the Ozeki exchanging favours that if Kakuryu for some unexplainable reason wins tomorrow - not that I remotely think that will happen - it will feel like the wrong thing.

At any rate, I can't picture Kotooshu celebrating another Christmas as an Ozeki. His recent form is so dismal.

When I'm looking at his record it always makes me wonder how someone can be so average of an Ozeki after such an amazing performance on his Ozeki run. When looking at his momentum at that time you would have thought - that's a Yokozuna right there, no doubt about it. Yet for 7 years all he has shown are two good basho's basically, all else being average.

Edited May 25, 2013 by ArchangelEST